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Reshma interviews former New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern live on stage about her new book, A Different Kind of Power! This thoughtful conversation covers Jacinda’s leadership style built on compassion and kindness, becoming a mom while in office, and how to navigate self-doubt and imposter syndrome without letting them define you. Plus, Jacinda discusses her difficult decision to resign at the height of her power and shares what’s giving her hope right now.

This program was recorded live at the Chicago Humanities 2025 Spring Festival on June 8, 2025.

Event produced by Jesse Swanson.

Associate produced by Nikki Konomos.

Event stage managed by Sophia Fishkins.

Event produced and mixed by Dan Glomski.

Follow Jacinda Ardern @jacindaardern on Instagram.

You can follow our host Reshma Saujani @reshmasaujani on Instagram.

Let us know how you’re doing in midlife! You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Reshma Saujani, Jacinda Ardern

Reshma Saujani  00:59

Welcome to My So-Called Midlife – a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I’m Reshma Saujani. Today’s episode is a very special one, and a first for us. You’re about to hear our first ever live episode of My So-Called Midlife, recorded in front of an audience in my hometown of Chicago, with my parents watching with none other than the incredible Jacinda Ardern. Jacinda was the Prime Minister of New Zealand during some of the most turbulent times in recent memory. The Christchurch, mosque shootings, COVID-19 pandemic. Through all of it, she led with empathy, kindness and a kind of strength that let’s be honest, we rarely see in politicians. Her new book “A Different Kind of Power”, is exactly that how to lead from your values. In our conversation, she talks allabout leadership built on compassion, becoming a mom while in office, and how to navigate that self doubt and imposter syndrome without letting them define you. She thinks imposter syndrome is a strength. We had a little debate about the word. Also, we talked about one of her boldest decisions of her life, stepping away from being Prime Minister at the height of her career. She did it not because she was burnt out, not because she failed or was pushed out, but because she knew it was time to make a change. Knowing when to leave, that’s a special kind of power. This conversation is going to remind you that leadership can look different, that empathy is powerful, that living your life out loud and unapologetically is not a weakness. It’s not a weakness to cry, it’s not a weakness to care, it’s not a weakness to love. That’s the whole point of leadership. Can’t wait to get into it. Let’s go.

 

Reshma Saujani  03:30

So, we’re in my hometown. Chicago is the best. Jacinda and I were just reminiscing about how her shoes have gotten tighter as we’ve gotten in menopause.

 

Jacinda Ardern  03:45

Well, mine was actually a post child booth. I have two different sized feet now, which is not how I intended to start this conversation, but here we are.

 

Reshma Saujani  03:56

Here we are. So I loved your book, and everyone pick it up, read it. You spent so much of the beginning of the book talking about how you were raised in your family so I want you to talk about that. You strike me as someone who doesn’t do anything that’s not intentional, and I want to know why you spent so much love and care in sharing those stories.

 

Jacinda Ardern  04:26

You’re in part because it was my family that was on a page, and I love and care about them, but I think there were two other reasons. The first is because you get asked all the time when you’re in politics, it’s almost a nature versus nurture question. I think in part prompted by the fact that people can’t really rationalize why any sane person would go into politics.

 

Reshma Saujani  04:52

It’s not crazy for them to think that.

 

Jacinda Ardern  04:53

No, it’s totally understandable. I understand and empathize with the question. And so people will kind of ask you, well. How did this happen to you? And they want to know whether or not you’re raised in a political household where your values came from, why you’re motivated in that way. So in a way, I think I was finally answering that question, and all the complexity of that question. But, I think the second reason was I wasn’t a big reader of memoir. It wasn’t a genre. I spent a lot of time reading. I certainly didn’t read a lot of political memoir. But when I started, I thought, “Oh, I think people are going to expect me to jump straight into the politics”, but to prepare for writing, I started reading memoirs, and I deliberately didn’t read political ones, because I didn’t want to be influenced and write in a particular way. So, I read a few different ones, and one that really stood out to me was “Lab Girl”. It’s the story of a scientist her life, how she came to be in science. I loved the stories of her early years, the stories of her first job, working in a hospital. I suddenly stopped trivializing the idea of writing about childhood. I thought, “Actually, this is interesting”. It gives you such an insight. I found that when I came to write about my younger years, there are certain memories. You’ll find this too, if you think about your early years, there were certain things that stand out a lot, and because those memories are right there. If you linger in them, you’ll be able to remember extraordinary details. I think it’s almost the same reason that we always remember both the first name and last name of our childhood friends – Shelly Ryder, Julie Bachman. I sometimes can barely remember the name of someone I met 10 minutes ago, but we remember in detail bits of our childhood. So I found that when I stopped and lingered, I could remember so much.

 

Reshma Saujani  06:55

It was a very normal childhood. Going back to the point where. Look, most politicians, probably a lot of them were like locked in basements, right? For them to be, let’s be honest. We know who we’re all thinking of right now.

 

Jacinda Ardern  07:11

But, is that what happened? Trikes, really?

 

Reshma Saujani  07:24

Anyway.

 

Jacinda Ardern  07:26

Sorry, we’re back to my normal childhood.

 

Reshma Saujani  07:28

But, politics wasn’t really a natural fit for you.

 

Jacinda Ardern  07:34

No.

 

Reshma Saujani  07:34

So many times in the book, you talked about how you were kind of behind the scenes.

 

Jacinda Ardern  07:39

Yeah.

 

Reshma Saujani  07:40

You were a nerd, a wonk, engaged in policy, wanting to do change. I love that part where you talked about how, when you didn’t know this about New Zealand politics that they had, like, literally a TIN and people would drop in the policy that they cared about and then pick it up, and that would be the one that they would try to pass.

 

Jacinda Ardern  07:57

Yeah, it’s a law lottery. Yes, we have that. It sounds very random when you don’t give the context, but that’s true.

 

Reshma Saujani  08:07

I want one for our Congress, quite frankly right now. But even your father, would said something, like “Jacinda, you just don’t have the skin”.

 

Jacinda Ardern  08:16

Yeah. Well, maybe if you’d just said it to me, that would have been okay. He said it to a sitting minister in government. When I was working in Parliament, and you’re right. I was behind the scenes and I’d started out as first of all, a volunteer. In part because I had grown up in a place where I saw a lot of poverty, and where I saw a lot of inequality. When you see things through a child’s eyes, you just come away with thisidea, not that it’s about politics, but actually it’s just about fairness. Fairness in New Zealand is such a striking value. It says we have this sense of injustice that’s kind of in here, which I’ve always observed and so that was this idea of fairness and just kids not having what I had. How do you fix that? Well, over time, I figured out the politics was a place you fixed that. So I volunteered, I knocked on doors, and then over time, just found myself moving through the ranks until I ended up working in Parliament and got to know a few MPs. My father, who was a policeman, was at a police event one day when the Minister of Police found him and said, “I know your daughter, Jacinda”. I think she’d make a great MP. And he said, “She’s too thin skinned for that”, and I’m not angry. He said that he was absolutely right. I was too thin skinned. But you know what? Still am.

 

Reshma Saujani  09:50

Yeah, I want to get to that, because I actually think that we need more thin skinned politicians. I want to get back to that in a minute. The thing is, you have a lot of people in your path that say, “Jacinda, you need to run. Jacinda, you need to lead”. People who kind of recognized your potential, even maybe in some ways before you do. This is kind of what happens and how you become prime ministe.

 

Jacinda Ardern  10:22

Yeah. Well, this is one of the things. I’ve observed, and I don’t think it’s unique to me. But, I remember as I became an MP which was again through a set of unusual circumstances, but we’ll skip over that for the purposes of this story. I was visiting a school, and it was for a leadership program. So, I went in to talk to a classroom of young women. They were about 15 or 16 years old at a school called Auckland Girls Grammar and State School, full of a diverse group of young women. I asked them to just run this exercise with me, where I said, “I want you to write down on a page your ideal job. If you could write down any job, you could do in the world. I just want you to write that down”. They all diligently wrote down the name of their dream career. Then I gave them a couple of minutes, and then I said, “Okay, now I want you to write down what you think you’ll do”. They all instantly picked up their pen, they weren’t confused by the question, and immediately wrote something down.

 

Reshma Saujani  11:23

That was different.

 

Jacinda Ardern  11:24

That was different. So, I asked them, How many of you wrote something down that was different? Almost every hand went up, and I picked out one girl, what was your first answer? Well, your second answer. She said to me, “What I think I’m going to do? Well, I think I’m going to be a travel agent”. And I said, “Well, what was your first answer?”, “Doctor”. I said, “Why don’t you think you’ll be a doctor?” And she said, “I just think there’ll be someone else who’s better”. It was a real kicker for me, because as she articulated that, I thought I was that young woman.

 

Reshma Saujani  12:00

Yeah.

 

Jacinda Ardern  12:00

I absolutely was. This idea of being asked, “Yes, I had to be convinced for lots of reasons, to put myself out there”. But so do a lot of young people, so a lot of young women, especially. So became really interested in politics. Why is that? What holds us back? And I think a big part of it is because we have an assumption both about ourselves but also about what a politician is.

 

Reshma Saujani  12:28

Can we sit there? Because I have imposter syndrome. Is like, my least favorite word. I did a speech abouthow I feel like it’s a big .

 

Jacinda Ardern  12:36

You would have loved it in the book thing.

 

Reshma Saujani  12:38

Yes.

 

Jacinda Ardern  12:38

All through it.

 

Reshma Saujani  12:39

I know, I did. I did cross it out a bunch of times. I’m gonna have a talk with you, but here we are. This is the talk we’re having, because I think you’re going there. It’s like imposter syndrome in many ways. It was a term that came out in the 70s. It came out at a moment of enormous progress for women. Often times, when I speak to young women, I say, “How many of you have impostor syndrome?” Everyone raises their hand. “How many of you this imposter syndrome stopped you from doing something?” Every hand is raised. So, I think if you look at moments, there is language and words that we use and that come up in culture.

 

Jacinda Ardern  13:13

Yeah.

 

Reshma Saujani  13:14

To prevent women from progressing. I think you understood this, even though you may have felt it.

 

Jacinda Ardern  13:19

I often call it a confidence gap, but I think because I see it as a spectrum. There’s some who feel it to such an extreme degree that unable, sometimes it’s just such a struggle to even move beyond it. There’ll be others where they feel it but they’re able to push through anyway. I think regardless of whether you use the title or not, we can’t deny. It’s in us. So, one of the things that took me years though, and this is the thing I’d like to challenge when we talk about imposter syndrome, we’ve treated as a weakness. It’s  frailty, it’s a trait that holds people back. My experience of it, and it took me a while was I didn’t lose it. Itdidn’t go away, I still carry it with me. It’s still in there right now. I find this a very daunting experience. And yet, the thing that I would rather impart with you isn’t that after five years of leading a country that suddenly puff it will be gone. It’s that after five years of leading a country, I realized that it was a trait that helped me, and it helped me in ways that I would never have anticipated. Who here has had a confidence gap at some point in their lives, just so I can’t do that? No? Yeah. And we all have an instinctive response to when we feel like that, we do something. We just don’t sit there with that discomfort. We then go and do something with it. The thing that I used to do with it is that I would prepare. Okay, I don’t feel entirely comfortable in this situation, so I’m going to try and feel better about it by preparing as much as I can. I’m going to deep dive. I’m going to research whatever am required to do. When I interned in Parliament, I got out parliamentary practice in New Zealand a 900 page guide book so that I could understand the standing orders of the New Zealand Parliament. MPs don’t read that book, but here I was swatting away. Also, I think if you have to make a decision on something, it means that you’ll go and listen to experts. You’ll bring humility to your decision making. You’ll seek advice, you’ll ask others, you’ll talk about it. Now, you cannot tell me in leadership that you don’t want someone who’s going to be prepared, or someone who is going to go and seek advice and expertise from others. That is a strength. Why don’t we see it that way? So, that would be what I would impart.

 

Reshma Saujani  15:46

I think you’re saying something really powerful, which there’s a difference between being prepared and perfection, right? There’s a difference between excellence and perfection. I think where perfection in particular for women’s leadership, is dangerous.

 

Jacinda Ardern  16:01

Agree.

 

Reshma Saujani  16:01

Because we talk ourselves out of doing the things. You are the prime example of that. Here you are, right. Who’s supposed to be the leader probably says, “I’m dropping out”. It’s you. You have fifty three days.

 

Jacinda Ardern  16:16

Yeah.

 

Reshma Saujani  16:16

Fifty three days. There’s only been two other women who are elected, or is there only one other woman at this point that’s ever been elected Prime Minister of New Zealand?

 

Jacinda Ardern  16:27

That’s actually a pretty good record.

 

Reshma Saujani  16:29

Yeah.

 

Reshma Saujani  16:29

Isn’t that funny? She said, pretty good record, right? And we’re like, “Yes, we’ll take it”.

 

Jacinda Ardern  16:29

Let’s not diminish that.

 

Jacinda Ardern  16:31

That’s an important point.

 

Reshma Saujani  16:37

You’re pregnant.

 

Jacinda Ardern  16:38

Well at the time, thankfully that I got asked, I was not at that point.

 

Reshma Saujani  16:42

But, you are soon after.

 

Jacinda Ardern  16:43

I was soon after. Yeah, that is an important point to make. It’s a strength until you let it stop you because once you leave it stop you, we’re not benefiting from your leadership. We’re not benefiting from those traits. I think the circumstances where I found myself as leader of the Labor Party, just to give a bitof context, because I never assumed that anyone was watching New Zealand politics in July of 2017, butwe were. We’d been in opposition for nine years, and we’d had the same leader for three years ago. I could Andrew Little, great guy, ex union leader, lawyer by training, great guy, but we were struggling in the polls. It was my birthday, so I remember this really well. We were in a meeting together when our polling for that day came through and I felt the little, I knew what time the polling came through. I would get it, and Andrew would get it, because he made me his deputy leader. Deputy leadership does not mean next in charge. It just means really earnest person who’s going to support the leader. So, I felt the little z in my pocket of polling for the week. I snuck a little look, and my heart just sank, because last week had been bad, and that week was worse. We were moving into the low 20% mark, and that meant the government of the day, who we were trying to unseat, were 20 points in front of us. That means annihilation in the election. I’m a pretty earnest Pollyanna-ish person in dark times for those who might need it, you know. After the meeting, flicked off a text to Andrew, just saying, “Look, I believe in you”. Don’t worry, once we get out in the campaign trail, it’s going to be okay. Then I just get this one back, “Can we talk?” Even then I just had this little butterfly in my stomach thinking, “Oh”. I mean, Andrew wasn’t the kind of person that would call me in for a little deeper meaningful so I thought, “This might be something else”.

 

Reshma Saujani  18:50

Do you think it was that?

 

Jacinda Ardern  18:53

Not realistically. I did think, “Oh, what’s he gonna do?” This seems unlike him. He’s quite unflappable, but we were fifteen minutes out from question time. That’s when everyone goes down into the debating chamber. I knew it wouldn’t be a long conversation so I popped around to his office, sat myself down on his couch, and he sat opposite me. He said, “Jacinda, I don’t know if I can do it. I don’t know if I can pull us out of this”. He said, “I think maybe you might need to do it”. I remember trying really hard not to vomit. I immediately jumped in to all of the reasons why he needed to stay. You know, it would be a shock to voters. It would make us look like we weren’t ready to govern. It would be too disruptive. In my head, I’m just “Not me”, because I immediately went to all of the things that you have to do when you’re a leader running to be the Prime Minister of New Zealand.

 

Reshma Saujani  20:09

This is what I’m talking about this more. But, this wasn’t the job you’ve been gunning for your whole.

 

Jacinda Ardern  20:15

Absolutely not. It had been the job that my entire time in Parliament I had denied ever wanting, becausethat was the truth.

 

Reshma Saujani  20:22

Yes.

 

Jacinda Ardern  20:22

It’s a strange thing in politics, it’s assumed. This comes back to this assumption about politics. It’s assumed that everyone is ambitious. They will ask you from the moment you get in there, “So, you want to be Prime Minister?” Very few careers that people assume that you must want to be at the top, but I never did. So, I left that conversation with Andrew assuming he would go away, really firm up his position and just get ready to go out there and campaign. But a week later, he came to work and he quit. Then he nominated me. Coming back to this question, I never really overcame the doubt. But, there is one thing I found that can completely outweigh it in those moments that quietens the noise and pushes aside this. It shouldn’t be me question, and it is the sense of responsibility. If that is also a factor for you, I found personally the dueling wolves doubt always got monstered by responsibility so that is what carried me into that job.

 

Reshma Saujani  26:31

I’ve been really thinking about this after watching the film and reading your book, and I’ve obviously been a huge admirer and fan of you for a very long time. You’re really complicated.

 

Jacinda Ardern  27:00

I don’t know that I’ve been called many things. That’s interesting.

 

Reshma Saujani  27:09

You are. You are complicated because, for so many reasons. I think this point about not pursuing power, but being deeply committed to purpose isn’t a very important thing. I realize, I need to look for in people who I want to lead.

 

Jacinda Ardern  27:43

This not to move into a full therapy session, but this is actually I think, one of the things I really wanted to impart. I actually don’t think I’m complicated, and I think I’m actually very normal. What’s abnormal isto find normal in leadership.

 

Reshma Saujani  28:03

Yes, keep going. As your therapist, you’re onto something.

 

Jacinda Ardern  28:11

I think most people actually strongly purpose driven. But, I think when we look at what are the norms in different roles, then we self exclude. Because if you ask anyone to describe what they see or think of as a politician, even the most polite person will use adjectives like ego, brash, confident, liar – things that most people wouldn’t identify with. Therefore you then say, “Well, actually, that’s not the place for me”. But, I think most people have a bunch of the traits that I value and I think are important. They just don’t end up in politics. That’s what I’m on a mission to change because there is a place for that. There’s not just a place for it. We need it.

 

Reshma Saujani  29:00

Yes. I mean, it’s empathy and kindness which is exactly what your book is about, right? Is what we are, what we need more of right now. So, I think the fact that you wear that on your sleeve, and you wear that as the trait that you are the proudest of, I think it’s what makes me such a huge admirer of you. One of the things as a mother – five year old and 10 year old, that really moved me by both the book and the film, were all the things you kind of went through. Basically having a child, right? And being Prime Minister at the same time. Breastfeeding at the UN, changing dirty diapers. I mean, that moment right where you’re.

 

Jacinda Ardern  29:47

To be fair, my husband changed. Just in case he’s in the room and he’s like, “He’s right”.

 

Reshma Saujani  29:48

We need to give him a round of applause, because I wanted to really take a picture with him next stage than you, for all the laundry that he did. Again, to me, that’s manhood, right? That’s the type of manhood that we need to really show. He was so invested in supporting you and showing up.

 

Jacinda Ardern  30:19

Yeah. He was also invested in just being a good dad.

 

Reshma Saujani  30:23

Yes. So, what’s your going through all of that? Where do you come out? Because I saw you so many times, and I feel this way as I was building Girls Who Code and moms first, having young children is that push and pull that you feel wanting to be in two places at the same time. Never fully being present, always feeling like it’s so damn hard.

 

Jacinda Ardern  30:47

Yeah. I’ve shared some insights into how that felt in part, not because I was inviting everyone to a pity party. But actually, because there were those moments, I was like, “This is what every parent goes through”. There’s something very leveling, very universal about the experience of parenthood. So, one of the things I think, (I don’t know if it’s useful), but felt like I wanted to impart on a page, is that guilt that you feel that you should always be somewhere else. I think we sometimes might think might be lessened if you’ve just got a really good reason for being somewhere else, but I can tell you, “You can lead a country and you will still feel bad”, all of the time. There was a lesson in that for me. The lesson for me was that’s just the price you pay for the gift of parenthood. They hand you that baby and then they give you your allocation of guilt as you walk out, and you will carry that with you.

 

Reshma Saujani  31:55

The other thing that was so powerful I think about that lesson and they’re going to be just fine.

 

Jacinda Ardern  32:00

Wow. You guys go, “Oh”. At first, until I thought about it, then I thought, “Wait”, she was okay.

 

Jacinda Ardern  32:00

Yes.

 

Reshma Saujani  32:00

When you tell Neve that you’re resigning. Instead of her being like, “Hooray, we’re gonna do more tea parties”, she’s like, “Mommy, I thought we’re not supposed to quit”.

 

Reshma Saujani  32:26

Yeah.

 

Jacinda Ardern  32:27

She was okay. The other thought, I didn’t put this on the page, but I’ve thought about it a lot since. WhenI think about the conversations I have with her about what and that we’d all. As parents, we have about what we want, what our kids want to do in the future. What do you want to be? What do you want to do? We love to hear the lists of aspiration and ideas. I think that if any one of them said to usm, I might have a career, but I just want to be a parent and a really good one, because otherwise I’ll just feel really bad. I’m just going to focus on that. I’ll probably do something on the side, but I’m not going to prioritize it, because I don’t want to have, I’m just going to focus on being a parent. We would coach them and counsel them to find joy. Yes, they want to be a mom or a dad, be a mom or a dad. But you know, find their joy, yet we don’t give ourselves that same grace. So whenever I feel that way, I try and think, “What would I say to Neve if she was feeling this emotion right now? What would I say to her? The only way I can sometimes cut myself some slack is if I think about what I want for her.

 

Reshma Saujani  33:51

COVID-19, huge Hallmark, right?

 

Jacinda Ardern  36:19

You just slap that one straight on the table.

 

Reshma Saujani  36:23

I know, but New Zealand was a huge kind of leader in terms of the response. Some of the lowest cases of COVID-19. Again, another huge example of your tremendous leadership. You win re-election, kind of in the middle of the pandemic, then things start to shift.

 

Jacinda Ardern  36:46

Yeah, it got hard. I think it was hard. I think, I feel fairly confident saying this, COVID was really hard for everyone. It just so happens that we chose to take a very particular approach, and this is where that over preparation really kicked in. Also, some of my views on the idea of confidence and trust. We have this idea in leadership that in order to inspire confidence amongst those who elect us, that we must demonstrate absolute knowledge, absolutely that you can never say I don’t know. You can never have an answer to a question. And yet, COVID, it was clear that we didn’t know. We didn’t know everything we needed to about this illness. We were in an imperfect environment, and there was a lot of fear because of that. My view is that when people are fearful, you just share as much information as you can, and you’re honest when you don’t have all of the answers. Actually, in that honesty, people will see. I believe that that’s true. I can tell that you don’t know everything. The important part is you have to have a plan in that imperfect environment. You have to tell people where you are going, because they need that certainty. So for us, when we saw that flattening the curve, which is what we all said we were going to do at the beginning, wasn’t working, because it was too infectious as an illness. The r-value, we all became epidemiologists. The r-value was just too high. You couldn’t keep it where you wanted to. Once there was a full blown outbreak in community transmission, it got away no matter how good your hospital system was, it would overwhelm it. So, when we knew that in New Zealand and COVID came to us a little later than most. End of February 2020, when we learned that we thought we have to try something different, because they told me how many people would die if we didn’t try something different. So, it was the weight of that knowledge that meant we tried to have a strategy where we had COVID cases. We would just try and get rid of them altogether. We used our border to do that. As a result, we had very long periods with no COVID. We would be watching the rest of the world, and our experience of it for long periods was very different, but it was still so hard. When vaccines arrived, people were fatigued. I think the stress of dealing with COVID generally. Of course, all of the public health requirements, it took its toll. We asked people if they worked in certain sectors to be vaccinated – health, education, borders. And not everyone agreed with that as well. So, we experienced a lot of the fracturing that you experienced, that every nation experienced. To me, I think sends a message though, around the long lag we have from COVID, which some of it was exacerbated by mis and disinformation. Those are still the hangovers of COVID that we need to keep addressing.

 

Reshma Saujani  39:54

How did you feel? I was watching the documentary. How did you feel of having those protesters outside, and also just some of the language, the kind of outward violence.

 

Jacinda Ardern  40:13

I think one of the hardest emotions. I would say not just politics, but probably leadership. Maybe in life, just generally when you feel misrepresented, when you feel like someone has a perception of you that you just don’t believe is fear. It’s a very hard thing to deal with. So, when I was looking over out at this, we had a occupation of our parliamentary grounds that started six weeks after the freedom convoy in Canada. So, we knew there was a connection between them. Canadian numbers were calling tow truck companies in New Zealand, threatening them not to tow any of the vehicles from the occupation. There were Qanon flags, American flags, Trump flags, on our forecourt.

 

Reshma Saujani  40:59

During this period of time, there’s an occupation that forms in essentially the lawn of the parliament (kind of common).

 

Jacinda Ardern  41:06

Time wise. It was after we weren’t using stay at home orders anymore. We’d opened up our borders. It timing wise, it just didn’t really make a lot of sense. But at that time, also New Zealand was consuming, I think 30% more Russian disinformation than the United States as well. We were one of the highest consumers in the Pacific. So, there was a lot going on not to say that there weren’t some people who were just simply motivated that they didn’t like the government’s vaccine policies. That was the context. But, even as I looked out on this forecourt and saw someone, they erected gallows for me and other politicians. But even then, as I looked out, I thought we were just trying to save people’s lives. But you know what? That’s what they thought they were doing too, because they thought vaccines killed people.

 

Reshma Saujani  41:55

And it didn’t make you angry or mad. I want to talk about that.

 

Jacinda Ardern  41:59

It made me sad. It made me desperately sad. Don’t worry, I’m not inhuman. There were moments where Ifelt very.

 

Reshma Saujani  42:07

Like, I’m gonna kick your ass.

 

Jacinda Ardern  42:10

I never want to say anyone should ever be compelled to violence. But, the first time I saw the documentary, the final cut of the documentary all the way through which was at Sundance. He was asked afterwards, “What was your reaction?”. “I thought, you would put an f-bomb from me. “In the doctor?” I was mortified. I was like, “My mother’s gonna watch it”. It was while I was watching the final stages of the occupation, because they burnt down the children’s playground, and that really got me.

 

Reshma Saujani  42:44

As we start take questions from audience, I was telling Jacinda. I remember when you resigned. At first, I remember being angry. Well, I was angry because I wanted you to be there forever. But then I remember being like, “Wow, she’s a boss”. Like, what a full exercise of power. You weren’t quietly quitting,you were loudly living like a choice that you had made for yourself to be like, “I’m done”. What an example. Can you talk about that?

 

Jacinda Ardern  43:30

I knew this would be the case when I was thinking about it. But, it is very hard. It is very hard to exit politics, it is. Firstly, in part, because the usual options for leaving – you lose or you die. I thought, “Well, that’s not a lot of options”. What if actually, it’s just time that you know that all of those things that really matter to you in leadership, not being defensive, maintaining your curiosity. Importantly, having enough in reserve to keep going in really difficult times. By this time, over those five years, we had the pandemic, we had the domestic terror attack. We also had a volcanic eruption. We had a majorbiosecurity incursion. We had natural disasters. It was tough few years and before that, I’d already been in parliament for ten. For me, it just felt like it wasn’t time for a mic drop. It was just time for a baton to be handed over. But, making that decision is lonely. You can’t talk to a lot of people about the decision to leave in politics, because the moment someone hears about it, there’s doubt that you’re sticking around, and then you’re done. So, I only told a few people, and they didn’t want me to go. They told me, “We might not win without you”. If you’ve got a burden of responsibility to the people you’re there serving, that weighs really heavily on you. But, actually that was how I convinced myself it was okay to leave, was that sense of responsibility. If I don’t think I have enough in the tank anymore, it is my responsibility to hand over to someone else. That was when I allowed myself the choice.

 

Reshma Saujani  43:31

So powerful. Questions from the audience. They are now here so I want to take a couple from the audience.

 

Jacinda Ardern  43:31

Yeah. You can send your questions in and see humanity.

 

Reshma Saujani  43:31

Do my job for me.

 

Jacinda Ardern  43:31

And your message to 22333.

 

Reshma Saujani  43:31

Thank you.  I see it.

 

Jacinda Ardern  43:31

I just wasn’t sure if your eyesight.

 

Reshma Saujani  43:31

I appreciate it. This is why you’re a prime minister, and I am not. Thank you.

 

Jacinda Ardern  45:17

It was because I’m barely hanging on to my site, and I didn’t know if you’re in the same category.

 

Reshma Saujani  45:54

Just the feet, not the eyes. I like this question. How was your experience in politics enhanced or evolved your leadership style?

 

Jacinda Ardern  46:08

A great question. You might have picked up from the conversation that right from the beginning of my time in politics. I assume that because to fulfill not just the public’s expectation of what you need to be – to be a leader in politics. But actually, if you wanted to survive, you had to be a very particular way. So, I observed that and thought, “Well, that’s probably a reason why I’m just gonna stick back here and look if I move up through the ranks I do. And if I don’t, I don’t, and that’s okay”. But, circumstance led me to a position where finally, I was in a position to test whether or not you could survive in politics whilst being very openly guided by kindness and I even said that. I said it publicly. Kindness is what I want us to be known for. I got to test that in real time. I got to test whether or not you could be thin skinned in leadership, whether you could carry a confidence gap in leadership. I’d like to think that I proved you could.

 

Reshma Saujani  47:11

And you definitely proved you could.

 

Jacinda Ardern  47:12

So, now I want other people to know. It’s really important to me, because I run a fellowship now on empathetic leadership, and one of the most important things I hope that those politicians who are part of it take away is that you can be successful as well. Because otherwise, if you take on these skills and traits as an empathetic leader, but you don’t take them all the way to the top, then the public don’t get to benefit from that. You can be successful as well and the reason for that is because I think people are hungry for it. Give voters a chance to vote for kindness, compassion, consensus and empathy. Give thema chance to vote for that. Because at the moment, we think the only way to succeed is being by being a strong man in politics, we’ll put it to the test. Let’s ask the voters and let them decide what they want in their leadership.

 

Reshma Saujani  48:04

Yeah, I love that. I think that’s right. I think we’re over the bully. We want something new. I think that the tide is starting to turn. Which kind of Lisa’s last question or the second question which is, like, “What gives you hope in this challenging time? Do you feel like we are in the middle of a portal into something new? That we’re at the fourth quarter as we like to say”.

 

Jacinda Ardern  48:25

I don’t know if we are or not. I like to deep dive on history sometimes, and when you think about the magnitude, for instance, of world events. A World War, hot off the back of that, a horrific pandemic in 1918 known as a Spanish flu, in my part of the world, that took hordes of lives. I mean, we’re talking outstripping the deaths from the war. In New Zealand, there’s a during the pandemic. There’s a historic graveyard in New Zealand where they marked up the people who had died during that pandemic. It is almost overwhelming. We go into a great depression and more global warfare, horrific times that is not to diminish the complexity of the time that we’re in now. But one of the reason I like to reflect back on where we’ve been before, is you can sometimes find patterns in the way that we respond to fear and uncertainty. You can see in through time that politicians in response to fear and uncertainty have deployed different tools. At the moment we’re seeing writ large, the tool of fear, the tool of blame, the tool that is used to very quickly, excuse yourself as a politician from finding the complex answers that are required, and even find that through history. At various points, politicians have blamed other nations, multilateral institutions, very really sitting and taking responsibility for fixing the issues at hand that are presented. But, there are also examples in history of the alternative to what we might be used to at the moment. It is not beyond our reach to have that kind of leadership here, because it’s been here before.

 

Reshma Saujani  50:24

Yeah.

 

Jacinda Ardern  50:24

I’d say that globally as well, we just need to give it a chance to succeed and thrive. So, I’m optimistic  because I don’t see indifference.

 

Reshma Saujani  50:35

Yeah. I’m with you.

 

Jacinda Ardern  50:36

And the world here.

 

Reshma Saujani  50:37

Commencement speech on this idea of disconnection. Ten million views, three hundred thousand comments, I gave me so much. People don’t want to be this divided. They don’t. I think, final question. After your experience, the role Clyde has played, what you’ve kind of seen across the world. New Zealand is an exemplar in terms of paid leave and affordable childcare. What needs to change to really have women be able to be mothers, be leaders. I don’t like the word balance, but kind of fundamentally change workplaces, change the structure, to make it not feel like you’re constantly choosing between one or the other, and you’re in two places at the same time.

 

Jacinda Ardern  51:24

I do think policy. I think policy matters. What government does matters. I think about New Zealand. When we first came in, we extended papering to leave to six months. We also increased support for parents who might be on their own caring for their children. And if we want to talk about heroes in the world, they’re heroes. One of the other things we did was put in a universal tax credit for the first year of a child’s life. We also increased access to child support subsidies so that again, every sole parent, almostin New Zealand, would have access to them. It was not because we came in with an ideology of parentsshould go out and work, or that we came in with an ideology of parents should stay at home and care. We came in with a view that families should be able to choose. They should be able to choose what works for them, but so many do not have choices. They do not have choices because they don’t have the financial security to make those decisions. And what could we do to restore that? I think if we want more women in leadership, we have to acknowledge that they are still primary caregivers. Yes, we can do as much as we can to try and again, change the dial so that again, families can make that decision as to whether they’re primary caregivers or not, but the reality is that they are most of the time. So, whatcan we do to give them a choice? For my part, what I underestimated is while we were beavering away or making all of those changes and doing those things as government. For some woman, just the fact I wa there being a mom and a leader that made a difference to them as well.

 

Reshma Saujani  53:07

You cannot be what you cannot see. Well, thank you so much. Before we close, there is an incredible  documentary, Prime Minister is out.

 

Jacinda Ardern  53:21

Yes. Actually, there’s a screening today, and it’s across a hundred cinemas today. From the 13th of June, it will be running again across AMC theatres across the United States.

 

Reshma Saujani  53:37

I got a sneak peek. My dad got a sneak peek. I could not stop thinking about it. You know, there are times when you watch something and it just moves you, but it also just makes you think. That is this documentary. I encourage all of you to see it. Take ten friends to see it and we’re gonna give you a little […].

 

Reshma Saujani  53:59

Thank you for coming. Thank you so much. Jacinda.

 

Jacinda Ardern  53:59

Once we get off the stage, because there’s no way I’m sitting here and watching myself. But you know, a strong Chicago connection, because the producer of the film is Madison Wells and Gigi Pritzker. Acknowledgement to them. Here, if I could finish on a final note if I may. I couldn’t have done what I did in politics without Clarke, my husband. He had the wisdom when I was in office to think, this seems like awild ride as a broadcaster. He decided to pick up a camera, and he started filming me. I was not happy about that most of the time, but he persisted. I’m glad he persisted, because after I left office, some incredible filmmakers then produced this documentary, which I hope just humanizes politics and leadership. So if nothing else, I hope it shares a message that a very normal people can and should be inpolitics. .

 

Reshma Saujani  55:32

Our deepest thanks to Jacinda for this beautiful conversation. Her new book – A Different Kind of Power, is out now. Thank you to the Chicago Humanities 2025 Spring Festival for having us in conversation. On last thing, thank you so much for listening to My So-Called Midlife. If you haven’t yet, now’s a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’re gonna get bonus content like me and Shannon Watts talkingabout stepping away from organizations we founded. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcast, or for all other podcast apps. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com. Thanks, all. See you next week. I’m your host, Reshma Saujani. Our associate producer is Isara Acevez.Our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltuck. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel. Special thanks to our development team, Hoja Lopez, Jamela Zarha Williams, and Alex McOwen. Executive producers include me, Reshma Saujani, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Helpothers find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you’re doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife. Follow My So-Called Midlife, wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye.