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Which film score composer is better: John Williams or Hans Zimmer? Two musicians, Bobby Lopez and Jonathan Coulton, join Ronald Young Jr. today to settle the debate. Bobby says John Williams is the most prolific and influential film composer of the 20th century, who continued his prolific career well into the 21st. Jonathan argues that Hans Zimmer excels at making music that enhances and supports the film without taking it over. Which movie composer will Ronald declare the greatest of all time?

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Jonathan Coulton, Bobby Lopez, Ronald young Jr.

Ronald young Jr.  00:00

Steven Spielberg and Christopher Nolan have made some of my favorite films from childhood. I was struck by the Wonder Spielberg presented in films like Jurassic Park, The Indiana Jones series and Hook starring Robin Williams as an adult. I enjoyed the complicated yet rewarding stories Nolan tells in films like Batman Begins, Inception and Interstellar while much credit goes to these visionary directors for making these masterpiece movies, none of these movies would have been what they are, if not for one important element, the immersive Sonic soundscapes, or more, simply put, the music. Spielberg frequently worked with John Williams, who was decorated with numerous accolades, including 26 Grammys and five Academy Awards. He’s also responsible for most of the themes you could be humming right now, like the jaws theme or any of the themes from the Star Wars series. Christopher Nolan often works with Hans Zimmer, who is on track to catch Williams in awards acclaim with four Grammys and two Oscars. The younger Zimmer is still actively making music for films and beyond his work with Nolan has made scores for The Lion King, Gladiator and the Pirates of the Caribbean series. But whose catalog catches our ear just a little bit more. Who is the king of composition? We decide today, once and for all right here and right now on Pop Culture Debate Club. I’m Ronald Young Jr.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:34

So let’s meet our panelists for the day representing Hans Zimmer is an American folk comedy singer songwriter known for his songs about geek culture. His song, Still Alive from the video game Portal, is a banger and is widely considered one of the best songs from a video game ever. That’s actually, I think that’s true. He was also the house musician for the legendary NPR quiz show, Ask Me Another, hello and welcome to Jonathan Coulton.

 

Jonathan Coulton  02:00

Hello, Ronald, thanks so much for having me.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:02

Oh, I’m glad you’re here. I that fact about still alive, that’s a that’s that really is a banger. I’m proud of you.

 

Jonathan Coulton  02:08

I really appreciate you calling it a banger. Thank you very much, very good.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:12

Okay, also joining us. Repping, John Williams is an American songwriter for musicals and playwright best known for CO creating the Book of Mormon and Avenue Q and for CO writing the songs featured in the Disney animated films Frozen, its sequel, Frozen two and Coco with his wife, Kristen, he is an EGOT Emmy, Grammy Oscar Tony, and he’s the only person to win each award twice. Big welcome to Bobby Lopez.

 

Bobby Lopez  02:41

Thanks, Ronald, thanks for having me. I’m so excited.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:43

Okay, you can’t be casual about being a double EGOT, man. I need you to come with some bravado.

 

Bobby Lopez  02:52

That’s the sound of the sound of a double EGOT.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:54

There you go. That’s what a double EGOT sounds like.

 

Bobby Lopez  02:56

I just want to say, Ronald, it’s an honor just to be nominated.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:00

You know what? I know you’re joking, but it is. It really is. Some people will never be nominated, as opposed to being in the rare era of double EGOT. So I’m proud of both of you.

 

Bobby Lopez  03:11

Oh, thank you.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:11

How do y’all know each other?

 

Jonathan Coulton  03:14

We went to college together and we were in the same acapella singing group. How cool is that?

 

Bobby Lopez  03:23

It’s very cool. This man is a God to me, because I followed in his footsteps a little bit he was, he was in the group, and had graduated before I joined. And his legend was, was, was very present still and and so I was lucky enough to sing one of the songs that he had sung like I got one of his solos. I felt like I was Jonathan Colton too, that’s very nice, folks.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:47

The name of the group?

 

Bobby Lopez  03:48

Oh, it was called the Yale Spiswick, as I said, very cool.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:55

Jonathan, talk to me about your relationship with Hans Zimmer music. We’re not arguing yet, but is there? Why do you have such an affinity for his music?

 

Jonathan Coulton  04:04

Well, I mean, I am primarily a songwriter. I have done a little bit of scoring here and there, enough to know that I’m not really good at it. Somehow, songwriting comes easily to me, or not easily, but I sort of get it, and I’ve worked at it for a long time, of course, but it feels like a very natural thing. And I was surprised when I first started doing scoring work, how much different a task it is than songwriting. I mean, they’re both making music, but it’s such a specific thing that you’re doing and and I, for me, Hans Zimmer is a is a composer who I think really embodies what it is to do that craft. Well, you know, for me to understand what it is to do that craft, well, I think he’s just a great example of that.

 

Ronald young Jr.  04:51

I love that. Bobby, you scored music, so you probably you have a bit of a relationship with this as well, kind of in the way that Jonathan was talking about from singers. Wrong writer to actually scoring. That’s probably takes a different part of your brain. What drives your affinity for John Williams’s music?

 

Bobby Lopez  05:07

Well, for me, it started long ago with Star Wars. That was my first the first thing that I fell in love with that I can remember falling in love with in culture. I was two years old when the first movie came out, and I was just the right age to become completely brainwashed by it. And, you know, I think it really, it kind of lives in my brain, as it does in most of our heads, you know, as part of, part of, like a founding building block of who I am. And those themes are, are kind of always playing in my mind. Now, as far as what I do, I don’t really do a lot of scoring. I haven’t really gotten to do it. I came in through the Broadway side of things. I was like a musical theater writer, and got, got picked by Disney to work on some some movie musicals. And so I’m adjacent and I and sometimes I get, you know, in the bits in within a song where the characters start talking and a scene plays, I sometimes find myself scoring those bits. I don’t really do it. And just like Jonathan said, it’s a different skill. It’s more like writing a string quartet than writing, you know, than writing an opera. Because music has serves a different function. It needs to know when to be out of the way. It needs to support the subtext of what the the characters are saying, or, you know, score the action of what’s happening on screen. And it’s all about emotion, but in a different way, it’s not the characters themselves emoting the way they do in a musical theater song, it’s almost like the feelings of the audience, yes.

 

Ronald young Jr.  06:40

So have y’all ever been in an argument together with each other?

 

Jonathan Coulton  06:46

No, we’re both way too nice to be in arguments. You’re gonna see, you’re gonna see a lot of simulated arguing today. I’m sure we’re both gonna get very simulated angry at each other.

 

Bobby Lopez  06:55

Let me add them.

 

Jonathan Coulton  06:57

Are you ready for a war of absolute desecration, Bobby?

 

Bobby Lopez  07:00

Yes, but frankly, you’ll lose.

 

Jonathan Coulton  07:02

Yeah, that’s the kind of energy I’m talking about.

 

Ronald young Jr.  07:06

You know, normally I start every episode with, are y’all ready to fight? But Jonathan, I think you did it a little bit better to me this time. With that in mind, let’s get to the fight. Jonathan, we’ll start with you. Hans Zimmer is better than John Williams. Give me your opening argument.

 

Jonathan Coulton  07:25

I think I just have to address the elephant in the room here. I’m a bit of an underdog in this fight because for one reason, and we’ve already talked about it, Star Wars. Listen, it’s a very important film. I concede it’s a great score, iconic, very formative for me personally, but I think we have to look at the entire body of work. I want to sort of zoom out from that, because, let’s face it, that movie is old. What have you done for me lately? John Williams, okay, that’s the first question, and I love John Williams as much as the next person, but he has, he’s a kind of old fashioned film composer, right? You know, he comes from his orchestral tradition, conductor, composer, Star Wars in particular, these very sort of Wagnerian romantic leitmotif stuff, orchestral music. He’s very capable, but my friends, that is the past. He has this one solution to the problem of film scoring, whereas Hans Zimmer has a really broad range, I think, a broader palette of sounds, he comes from a, you know, he was a band guy. He was in New wave bands. He comes from a different tradition. So he’s able to bring in synthesizers and sound design and sort of blend these genres. And moreover, I think he has a real knack for the subtlety aspect of film scoring. Because, you know, I mean, I concede we can all right now sing probably half a dozen John Williams themes from memory. But I would argue that is the problem. When I was first starting to score, I sought advice from many friends, and one of them said to me, you know, the thing to remember is the thing you’re working on. It’s almost finished. You you are adding the you are adding the last little bit of the thing. So don’t this is not the time to shine and show off how smart and clever you are. This is the time to fold yourself into the piece and support it. And I think that is what Hans Zimmer really excels at, is making music that sort of enhances and supports the film without taking it over.

 

Ronald young Jr.  09:39

That’s a great opening opening argument. Bobby Lopez, give me your opening argument. John Williams is the superior composer to Hans Zimmer.

 

Bobby Lopez  09:48

I would say that if, if Hans Zimmer is a genius of film scoring, then John Williams is the goat. He’s the greatest of all time. He is the most prolific and. Influential film composer of the 20th century, and including the 21st century. He has, he’s, he’s still working in the beginning of his career. He brought back a lost art of symphonic film music, which really, you know, corresponded to the golden age of film. It was people like Max Steiner, Korngold, Bernard, Herrmann, they wrote these romantic scores that were tailored to the images you saw on screen, and that had fallen out of favor in the 50s and 60s, with the James Bond films and things like the Fellini movies, Eddie El moracon, with directors like Spielberg and Lucas John Williams brought back that old tradition, and I think he improved upon it because he made it more accessible to everyone, and we were all influenced by this man. I mean, just look at the list of what he did, JAWS, the Star Wars saga, close encounters, Raiders of the Lost Ark, and the whole Indiana Jones thing. ET and then in this century, the Harry Potter films, the fablemans, all this wonderful stuff, his gift for melody is unparalleled. I think in some ways, he is even a more gifted melodist than some of the composers He imitates, like Dvor. He comes from an earlier era that none of us can relate to, because none of us lived in the 30s and 40s. And he’s the last surviving composer that can that, that really knows how to write for the orchestra. John Williams is the greatest film composer of all time.

 

Jonathan Coulton  11:38

Well, I think you said it yourself. Barnaby, he’s old fashioned. I mean, you said 30s and 40s for God’s sake. I mean, do you know what year it is? We’re in the 2000s now. I mean, yes, I agree, golden age of film scoring. But I got news for you, Bitcoin is over 100,000 right now. It is now. We’re now. We’re now in the Bitcoin age of film scoring.

 

Bobby Lopez  11:56

I think we should, we should be harkening back to the past to draw from what was great about it, and remember member when and make America great again.

 

Jonathan Coulton  12:09

Wow, I didn’t think we were gonna go there. I did not have that on my bingo card, but okay.

 

Ronald young Jr.  12:15

Jonathan, let me ask you, like a part of your argument posits that is old school of the past. Why is new school better?

 

Jonathan Coulton  12:25

I mean, that’s a reasonable question. I mean, I think that there is definitely again, not. It’s very hard to argue these cases, because they’re both really fantastic at what they do and and I have great admiration for John John Williams as a composer, but I guess I would say that when you have an older take on something, it limits your set of tools. It limits what you can do, and especially when you’re talking about a field like film scoring, because, of course, the nature of storytelling has changed, and the nature of filmmaking has changed. And so I think that that sometimes you’re going to have a situation where, you know, an older esthetic, an older, more sort of classic approach, is going to be appropriate and work really well. I mean, Star Wars is one of those examples, because it, because it has this kind of old fashioned score. It feels like an old fashioned story. You know, people have talked about that, that movie in particular is this classic sort of Hero’s Journey story. And in fact, it is a long time ago in a galaxy far away. So it’s like it is of the past, literally. But I think that when you have, when you open yourself up to more new newer means of expression, newer tools, I think it’s it’s easier to sort of stay in sync with the changing nature of of storytelling and filmmaking and the sort of increased complexity of of of characters and emotional content and all that stuff.

 

Bobby Lopez  14:00

Well, Hans Zimmer introduced the synthesizer into and the sequencer into writing music, which is definitely of this era. But we both know that when you’re working in the box, you play something in, and then you highlight it and hit Q, which is quantized, so the computer then takes the notes you you have played in and arranges them into what you wish you had played perfect and mathematically precise. Whereas when John Williams conducts a piece of music that he wrote, and the director gets to hear it for the first time on this, at this in the recording studio as he lifts his baton. That’s that’s the director’s first exposure to this piece. He is able to organically give it life in a way that is kind of lost these days in the in the Hans Zimmer age of MIDI, mock ups, people taking their taking samples of in. Instruments rather than the instruments themselves. And that’s, that’s what the director hears first, just the computer playing, you know, pretending to be a violin, as opposed to getting to hear the actual real thing. People making music together in the analog world.

 

Ronald young Jr.  15:17

Bobby, you mentioned a lot of Spielberg movies, which, to Jonathan’s point, are a bit classic, dare I even say old school? Do you think any of these movies would have benefited or would have been as big as they are if they weren’t orchestrally scored, if they had been used a synthesizer or some new school way of scoring?

 

Bobby Lopez  15:36

Well, I mean, look at the Star Wars. I mean, one way you might have, you might have gone at Star Wars was synthesizers and strange sci fi sounds the way that a lot of sci fi movies had been scored up to that point. Or you could have done needle drop, kind of like Stanley Kubrick 2001 classical music, because it is music freshly composed for this film. It gave it a sense of adventure and high excitement and fantasy and romance that that it would never would have had if it was like a bleep bloop sci fi score of the of the era.

 

Jonathan Coulton  16:15

How dare you, sir, bleep bloop.

 

Bobby Lopez  16:19

Some have called the music of Star Wars, the oxygen of that universe, because it allows us to feel like we are there and breathe it in and relate to on an emotional level.

 

Ronald young Jr.  16:30

Jonathan, what about you? Do you think that there’s any old school Spielberg movies, or any of the ones that Bobby mentioned, Star Wars, Close Encounters et that are improved with a new school scoring to them?

 

Jonathan Coulton  16:43

I mean, that’s a good question. It’s definitely hard to imagine, right? Because these things are so iconic and embedded in our our memories that I think it’s hard to I mean, it’s kind of comical to imagine. I mean, I could see the idea of like and I’m actually now that I’m saying this, I’m starting to think this might be a good idea. Maybe this is a project you and I can work on Bobby after we heal this, this rift. But to actually do a, to do a score, a new score for Star Wars, that it’s like synthesizer music from the era. I mean, that would be super cool. I mean, it would be terrible. But, you know, this is, the thing is that at that point, I would say the world of electronic music was, was not really ready for for prime time in that way. And you know, if somebody had composed a score for for Star Wars that used the electronic tools of the day, it would be, it would be kind of laughably dated. The thing about, about Hans Zimmer and about, I think, modern film scoring, is that it does sort of meld the orchestral tradition with the newer stuff. So, you know, you do get to things that are sort of heightened versions of orchestral stuff. So, like, if you want to, if you’re doing, like, what’s the like, Hans Zimmer did inception, right? And there’s a, there’s a few moments in that score where you hear this, like bra sound. And it is definitely like, it comes from the orchestral tradition, right? And you have your, you have all your low horns, and there’s some Italian phrase you put on top of it to make it, to make it really brappy. You have them all hit it at once, but, and I don’t even actually know what Hans Zimmer is doing, but it’s this, like it has this, like other worldly, synthetic nightmarish quality that I think uses this sort of old school thing that we’re all tapped into, but heightens it.

 

Bobby Lopez  18:40

Yes, it definitely reminds me of everything that is terrible about about the modern day.

 

Jonathan Coulton  18:48

And then that way, I walked into that trap, very current.

 

Ronald young Jr.  18:52

Jonathan, let me ask you, do you think that there’s are we missing? Are we walking past the orchestral sound that could make movies of today better like we’re in a place now. I mean, and I’m struggling to think of a movie like that has been released in modern day in which they are scoring with a fuel full orchestra, and it not be something that someone is intentionally trying to harken back to old school. But do you think that there are any movies that are that are improved with that orchestral sound?

 

Jonathan Coulton  19:20

I mean, I think you kind of put your finger on it. And the question is that, is that it is, I mean, like it or not, it is an older in older sound. And you can say that you long for it and that it was truer or more pure, or something like that. And I’m drawn into that as well. Look, I’m in my mid 50s. When I write a song, I like for there to be three verses and a chorus and also a bridge. And not everybody does that anymore. That is an old fashioned kind of songwriting. And I John Williams, like, will continue using my one bag of tricks until my dying day, because it’s all I know. So I think that, like, if you were to say, like, oh gonna I’m a filmmaker. I’m making this film. I want there to be a pure, old fashioned orchestral score with a real orchestra, no electronic instruments. You could get it, and it would sound great, and it would be a particular thing, but the flavor of it would be old fashioned.

 

Ronald young Jr.  20:19

We’ll be back with more Pop Culture Debate Club after this break.

 

Ronald young Jr.  20:38

Bobby we talked about, like, how popular John Williams music is, like we talk about, you know, if I start humming, everyone knows exactly where that’s from. I’m wondering, does popularity, does that actually equate to better? Because I think the one drawback that I would see is that, as a person listening to a John Williams score in my car, I don’t know that I would think about the musicality as much as I would think about the product. I would be thinking about Star Wars. I would be thinking about jaws. I would point to that. Be like, that’s jaws. I wouldn’t even name the song, just like, that’s jaws. I would name that. How do you how when when when someone has had this type of success and their music is that inextricably linked to the to the to the movies that they’re in, how do you define them as being better than another composer?

 

Bobby Lopez  21:32

Well, I’m glad you brought that up, because I think that one of the one of the benefits of John Williams versus the Hans Zimmers of today is that you can listen to his music in your car and enjoy it, as opposed to a Hans Zimmer score, which I think is very much dependent on its context in the movie. It’s about creating tension or creating excitement or or signaling ominous disaster with a bra. And when are we going to listen to that in our car? I really, I wouldn’t turn it on. Whereas, when we’re in our car, our family, like, when we’re about to like, like, let’s say we’re driving to, you know, mountain retreat we go to, sometimes we go to Sedona, and we see those red rocks on the drive from Phoenix to Arizona. I will often queue up Jurassic Park to coincide with when we first see the red rock, and when, when we get to that it is like majestic, and it makes our lives better. And it doesn’t have to just be about dinosaurs Ronald, it’s about a feeling of wonder and majesty.

 

Jonathan Coulton  22:40

Well, but you know that that song does have lyrics? Did you know that?

 

Bobby Lopez  22:44

No.

 

Jonathan Coulton  22:45

Oh, my God, they’re real, real life dinosaurs, and I can’t believe I see them. It goes on, but that’s the basic idea.

 

Bobby Lopez  22:58

Oh, I had a little Harry Potter. I have some lyrics to Harry Potter.

 

Jonathan Coulton  23:03

How do they go.

 

Bobby Lopez  23:04

Because, well, was it was because our family loved Harry Potter. Kids loved Harry Potter, and we used to do quiz shows, like trivia questions about Harry Potter in the car. And so I was, I was inspired to write this, a sort of a jazzed out version of Harry Potter, what time is it? You know what time it is time for the Harry Potter quiz, what time is it? Oh, yes, I think you know time for the Harry Potter quiz show. We’ll have lots of questions that might be a struggle for you to answer. If you’re a mo go, will you fall prey to dark magic disguises or bring home cash and prizes?

 

Jonathan Coulton  23:52

Okay? I think we have demonstrated that we are more songwriters than film COVID scores. Denigrating, denigrating, perfectly good filled scores with song lyrics. That’s what we do as desecration.

 

Ronald young Jr.  24:10

Honestly, that was very clever, but Bobby, you did say something that draws me back in. You said that Hans Zimmer scores are about the point of view or context in the movie, which would make them different for you listening to you in your car. In your car. Isn’t that to his advantage, though? Doesn’t that mean that he’s getting more to the core of the movie and creating the moment that the audience should be in, rather than kind of just creating a theme, which is what John Williams is really known for?

 

Bobby Lopez  24:38

Well, yes, I suppose. But one of Hans’s famous cues is called Journey to the line. It’s from The Thin Red Line. And this is basically like a clock ticking. It’s like, and then four chords that kind of build and build and build for about five minutes and crests with emotion. And this is about so of establishing tension in that in that scene but it’s been used. It’s been, you know, dropped in and lots of trailers and lots of to other movies, because it is in some ways kind of usable to create tension pretty much anywhere. But it doesn’t have any distinguishing features like, you know, a real tune to it. It just carries this emotion and creates this kind of pace, pulse quickening feeling. But, you know, I would argue that, that even though it works in the context of the film, I wouldn’t necessarily want to, want to sit with it and listen to it without an image.

 

Ronald young Jr.  25:37

Jonathan, is that, do you think that’s important? Like, do you think it’s important to be able to have music that you can put on in the car? Or do car, or, do you think it’s more important to be able to snap into place with the images? Is that, like, what’s more important in terms of making a good composer?

 

Jonathan Coulton  25:50

Yeah, I mean, I think that. I think that’s the that’s part of the question. And I think people will come down on different sides of this. And you know, it’s true. I mean, John Williams gift for melody is fantastic. And like the there are these melodies, these themes, these sort of mega themes for these movies that that do stick with you, and it is it, they do work as sort of standalone symphonic music. But I guess my my argument is, and this comes from my own experience with working on film scoring, or not film scoring, but TV scoring and and and realizing that my good ideas and my gift for and Melody are not what the thing needs. And sort of like having to resist that, and having to work in a completely different space with a completely different mindset. And I guess I really am an admirer of the way Hans Zimmer does that. I mean, you know, you know you look at, I mean, I think Dunkirk is like a real masterpiece, because it is, I mean, again, like this is not music that you would really want to listen to in a car, but it’s because it’s music of dread and deep boredom, sort of together with themselves, right? Because they’re all these soldiers are trapped on this beach. They don’t know if they’re going to make it out or if they’re going to get killed by the Germans. And this long stretch of time, they’re just getting worn out this tension. And so the score is, the score has these sort of long, deep, evolving drones, and these, these sort of high, high notes of tension, and you can just feel it, the sort of nightmarish quality of that situation creeping in on you. And I think it’s really, really a powerful way of of of elevating that feeling, that emotional content of of the music. So, I mean, I guess I would say that sometimes that that a singable theme is not what you need, you know.

 

Bobby Lopez  27:52

Well, if I can respond, I think that that John Williams has plenty of music that is not, not memorable on purpose, and plenty of quiet moments and plenty of things that are just action and just tension, you know, the cellos and double basses, tremolo ing. But I would also argue, and I would say also, that Hans Zimmer is no has a gift for melody. He does. He, I mean, what’s this one? Dun, dun […] Yes, the Caribbean. That’s right. He’s awesome. I’ve never, I’m not arguing that. He’s not just say that, that film directors have have moved away from strong melodies as a way of getting out of the John Williams trope, right? And because, possibly because, no one else can really follow him there. There’s no one as gifted. But I think that works to my argument that he is the greatest of all time because he can do everything. He can do, melodies you’ll never forget. He can he can even do like, for example, in Superman, there’s two melodies you can never forget in that film, more than two, but there’s two Superman themes. […] Superman. They all have man. And then there’s what’s the other one. It’s, the funny thing is, they both kind of block each other out because they’re both so good and they’re such great marches that it’s hard to remember one, and.

 

Jonathan Coulton  29:38

Wait, is there another march from? From another type of march thing from Superman.

 

Ronald young Jr.  29:42

Oh yeah, sorry the bad nerd, you were really.

 

Jonathan Coulton  29:57

Hard to resist. It’s like a delicious piece of candy. You can’t get away from it.

 

Ronald young Jr.  30:02

We’ll be back with more PCDC after this break.

 

Ronald young Jr.  30:20

Let’s close out arguments. Bobby Lopez, give me your closing case. John Williams is better than Hans Zimmer.

 

Bobby Lopez  30:30

He is, as I’ve said, as I said in the beginning, he is the the most influential, prolific, and in the end, the greatest composer of film, composer of all time, because he encompasses everyone that has come before him, and, in a way, everyone that comes after him, because he’s simply that memorable, that just gifted and and talented. I would even say that he has been influenced by Zimmer and surpassed him is at his own game, the Star Wars movies of the you know, the 789, the sequel trilogy, I would say, have been influenced by the fewer note theme, kind of esthetic, Ray’s theme, but outdoes them, because Ray’s theme is this beautiful […] Pretty, few notes, but haunting and organically moving. The man just there’s no one that doesn’t know his music, can’t, doesn’t bring it with them. It serves the movie. It makes the movie re watchable. It makes the movie more immortal, and makes the movie like a song, but not quite a song that will never leave your mind forever and is always there for you. So for those reasons and the ways influenced me, quite honestly, I would, I would nominate him as greatest of all time. Thank you very much.

 

Ronald young Jr.  32:10

I love that you put a button on it. That was incredible. Jonathan Coulton, closing argument. Hans Zimmer, is that dude?

 

Jonathan Coulton  32:18

Yeah. I mean, listen, these are both great composers. I mean, they really are, they really are good at what they do. And I certainly can’t do what either one of them does. I have no idea. I mean, all credit to John Williams, a craftsman, really a genius. But, you know, I think that Hans Zimmer is the future of musical storytelling. I think that his, his techniques, his sonic palette and his his approach to to scoring is is more toward the future than John Williams is. So his music is not just there to accompany a film, or even to sit, even made to sit alone as music it is. It is woven into the fabric of the film. It becomes part of the film’s, you know, emotional DNA. And, you know, I think that you know that he it’s hard to, it’s hard to compete with the with the footprint of a composer like John Williams, and just the cultural footprint that those those films have. I mean, especially the era, you know, Bobby, you were talking just before in the I mean, I get a little misty too, when I think about the first time I heard those scores. They’re very powerful. But, you know, I mean, this is the thing, is that the way Hans Zimmer is able to create these emotional universes, and these, these, these sort of supportive, integral soundscapes, you know, you have to remember John, John Williams. I mean, I think Hans Zimmer has about 20 years of of catch up work to do, right? They’re about 20 years apart, so I’m excited to see what Hans Zimmer still has yet to offer, even though he has already offered such amazing film scores. Thank you very much.

 

Ronald young Jr.  34:22

Yeah, the this is, are y’all ready for my ruling?

 

Jonathan Coulton  34:25

Yeah.

 

Ronald young Jr.  34:26

Okay, this has been a great conversation. I really, you know, I grew up a band kid. I was in middle school band. I was in, I started in sixth grade, middle school band, I play, I’m a percussionist, so it was easy for me to move from drums to keyboard. Of my abilities. I’m still a new keyboard player, but I played. I was on the drum line. I was drum captain for two years, snare, all that. So I love music. I also I’ve never written a song, but I make up a lot of songs on the spot about things going on in my life, randomly making bed, all that, which I really enjoy. I’ve never come i. Scored anything to music. So I really appreciate people that have the ability to do these. So one, I just want to say thank you both, because the conversation is great. But also we get to talk about, like, kind of titans of industry, and me and Jonathan, we were talking a little bit before we turned on the mics, about we were really saying, was this argument popularity versus craft. You know what I mean in that there’s craft in both, but there’s some of these songs that are obviously a lot more popular than others. When you start to talk about the work of John Williams. But you know what I’m starting to think about composing generally, and you think about the names that kind of float to the top of the list right now, James Horner, Ludwig, gorenson, Howard Shore, Danny, Elfman, Randy Newman. They’re just names that kind of drift to the top of who’s composing and doing great jobs in film and songwriting, people that have a lot of skin in the game. You know, where this kind of came down to me was that it is new school versus old school in a very specific way. But I want to point something out, which is that I think that more new movies should have themes, I think, in a world in which a lot of movies and films can be very forgettable with the audience attention span, the idea of having a theme or something that is really stuck to the movie in a way that really makes us say, hey, man, that’s this movie. That’s this movie. You know, Hans Zimmer does have that with Pirates of the Caribbean. I’m not gonna go down through his whole list, but that is something where it’s like, yeah, obviously, that’s Pirates of the Caribbean. We know that very well. But when we talk about what John Williams has, he has a whole bunch of I mean, we’re talking Indiana Jones, we’re talking et we’re talking Star Wars like, we talk about Star Wars a lot, but we didn’t even talk about Indiana Jones, the fact that like that stuff. I mean, you could just see it as soon as you hear the theme, you could see the rock going down, or the arc of the […]  opening, all of that. Things that are attached to the film, I mean, and something that I think almost I like, like something that almost swayed my opinion, was thinking about the point of view in the point of view in the context of the movie, which is what a composer is supposed to be doing. They’re not supposed to be making music that you’re that you want to listen in your car. They’re supposed to be attaching your eyes to what you see on screen. That’s what the director would say, that’s what the producer would say, that’s what the writers would say. They keep their attention on the movie. But if we’re being honest, we love themes. We love we love good […]. We do, we both do. We both sang through Thebes. So it’s really hard for me in that in that mindset. And I think Hans Zimmer has a lot further to go. He is 67 years old, whereas John Williams is 94 so I think in terms of body of work and availability of things moving forward, it’s tough for me to say that this one goes to Hans Zimmer because I think he has more work to do. Not to say that he hasn’t done a lot, but he has more to do. And the final thing that kind of gives this to John Williams is that I think there’s been kind of a running joke about when we talk about Nolan movies, and the kind of wall to wall wa sound, which I do think it does devalue the idea of, like musicianship and what we’re actually capable of as musicians. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think it also is indicative of what we’re listening to today and the attention span of most audiences. But I think as a person, a little boy in band class listening to stuff, I need more themes, and I think John Williams points us in that direction. And I believe the new school composers can get us there. But I think, Bobby, you’re right, John Williams is the greatest film composer of all time.

 

Bobby Lopez  38:31

You know, maybe we should really be having this debate in maybe in a few decades, when both of them have finished their bodies of work.

 

Ronald young Jr.  38:40

Oh, absolutely.

 

Bobby Lopez  38:40

To be continued. How about that?

 

Jonathan Coulton  38:42

That seems fair. Let’s meet it. Let’s meet again in 20 years.

 

Ronald young Jr.  38:46

I’m glad if we’re still going, you’re both welcome back, and by then, we’ll probably have more names to discuss at that point.

 

Bobby Lopez  38:51

True.

 

Jonathan Coulton  38:52

You know what? You’re going to be talking to a bunch of AIs. You’re going to not, you’re not going to need us at all.

 

Ronald young Jr.  38:59

You know what? I’ll bring y’all in with the AIs. Anyway, it’ll be nice.

 

Bobby Lopez  39:02

Writing the best music too.

 

Ronald young Jr.  39:05

You want themes? Could you imagine that conversation? Hey, bit bot 145, Is he better? Jonathan Coulton, where could folks find you if they’re looking?

 

Jonathan Coulton  39:16

They can find me on Jonathancolton.com, don’t look for me on social media. I have accounts there, but I don’t use them for mental health reasons. I can’t stand it out there. But Jonathancolton.com, is a good way to find me.

 

Ronald young Jr.  39:29

I love it, and Bobby Lopez, where can folks find you if they’re looking?

 

Bobby Lopez  39:32

Oh, geez, I also have some socials, but don’t really use them, and I don’t have a website and I don’t have anything, you just can’t find me. I guess that’s why I don’t get out a lot. Glad you got how did you guys find me?

 

Jonathan Coulton  39:50

I have your phone number.

 

Ronald young Jr.  39:53

Okay, well, let me ask you, like this, Bobby, is there anything you want to plug while you’re here?

 

Bobby Lopez  39:57

Geez, um no, wow, look at that. So much fun.

 

Jonathan Coulton  40:06

This is why I love Bobby is so down to earth, so humble and down to earth. Double EGOT who doesn’t promote anything. Yeah, fantastic.

 

Ronald young Jr.  40:13

All right, everyone, please go watch Frozen on your favorite streaming platform. Sing along from beginning to end. That’s a good way to find Bobby Lopez, well, thank you both for being on the show.

 

Bobby Lopez  40:23

Thanks Ronald.

 

Ronald young Jr.  40:24

Thanks again to Jonathan Coulton and Bobby Lopez. There’s more Pop Culture Debate Club with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like Chelsea White and Selena Coppik from the Father of the Bride versus The Wedding Planner episode discussing their favorite moments from their own weddings.  Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Lemonada and the BBC.   It’s produced by Jamela Zarha Williams, Kryssy Pease,  Dani Matias and me, Ronald young Jr. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neel is VP of new content. Our Senior Vice President of weekly content  and production is Steve Nelson. Commissioning editor for the BBC is Rhian Roberts. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer.   Follow Pop Culture Debate Club, wherever you get your podcasts.

 

Jonathan Coulton  40:24

Thank you.