Actor Mackenzie Davis joins Sam to talk about how she took a semester off from college to model–hated it–and ultimately decided to go back to school and fast track her degree so that she could start acting. They bond over seeing baking directions as meditational, learning lines while cooking, and how making lists and keeping lists are two different skills. Check out Mackenzie’s new film, Speak No Evil, which is out now.

Keep up with Samantha Bee @realsambee on Instagram and X. And stay up to date with us @LemonadaMedia on X, Facebook, and Instagram.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Samantha Bee, Mackenzie Davis

Samantha Bee  00:00

If you’re like some 40% of Americans, you’re probably listening to this on your commute to work. If you’re a white woman, you might be commuting to a job where you make about 82% of what a male employee is making. Like most things in this country. It’s worse, of course, if you’re a woman of color, still in 2024 black women tend to make 70% and Hispanic women 65% of a male counterpart’s salary. So yeah, I do have some serious choice words for people who have used equal pay for equal work as a rallying cry for decades, and yet, more than 60 years after the Equal Pay Act was signed. This is still our reality. And because I’m feeling quite spicy today, let me add insult to injury. I think it’s an oxymoron to call someone a working mom. I think all moms are working moms. Some just also work a job outside the home, in addition to the job of being a mom. But guess what? In addition to raising your own children, which pays $0.00 and offers zero health insurance. Women’s pay tends to go down when they have kids, even though men generally get a bump in pay when they become dads, make it make sense.

 

Samantha Bee  02:49

This is Choice Words, I’m Samantha Bee. My guest today is actor Mackenzie Davis, who you love from Station 11, Halt and Catch Fire and the new film speak no evil. We talked about how it took her until the final season of Halton catch fire, to receive equal pay with her male co stars. And while each industry has specific rules on parody, we know we can do better all the way around. Plus she’s a fellow Canadian and a fellow Baker, so please, you must bear with our Toronto talk, our Canada. Talk, it was important to our souls, so take a listen and make good choices. I was so excited to meet you.

 

Mackenzie Davis  03:37

Me too. I’m such a big fan here. It feels very like casual how I was just joining with technical difficulties and not focusing my attention on you right away, but I’m so excited to meet you. Thanks for having me.

 

Samantha Bee  03:47

I love when other people have technical difficulties, because it makes me feel so much better about my own technical difficulties, which are numerous.

 

Mackenzie Davis  03:56

Girl, I’ve got tons. Just buckle up.

 

Samantha Bee  03:59

Oh boy, you know what? I was refreshing myself by like, looking at your resume, and I looked at it and I was like, oh, my God, you’ve been in so many things that I love so much. Oh, my chest.

 

Mackenzie Davis  04:17

That’s a nice way to start.

 

Samantha Bee  04:19

First of all, my friends introduced me, maybe, like, a year and a half ago or something. They were like, you have to watch halting catch fire. I you’re just so great as Cameron, oh yeah.

 

Mackenzie Davis  04:32

That’s so nice. I love that show so much. And it was such a like surprise, big deal to me. And it’s was something nobody really watched the time, which is fine, because it just felt like our little secret. But it’s really been nice that people have discovered it over like 10 years and gotten really into it. It’s so cool.

 

Samantha Bee  04:52

So into it like so the fans of that show are so passionate. And I include myself. I include myself in that category. Know what else is very nice is that we’re both Canadian.

 

Mackenzie Davis  05:03

Yes, my favorite thing, where did you grow?

 

Samantha Bee  05:06

I grew up in Toronto, whereabouts in Toronto, like, kind of like, all over the place. I spent mostly ronsonsville.

 

Mackenzie Davis  05:14

So Ronsensville is so nice. Is it always nice?

 

Samantha Bee  05:18

It, you know what it is like, a time capsule. It has not really miscon like, a slightly hipper, like, the restaurants are a little bit.

 

Mackenzie Davis  05:27

No, but it’s very villagey, like, it’s.

 

Samantha Bee  05:30

Very villagey and very separate from the rest of the city, like its own little kind of secret place. And I, every time I’m back in Toronto, I walk around Francisville and everything is kind of the same, and I go, oh, if I move back to Toronto one day, I will live here like I would be called.

 

Mackenzie Davis  05:50

It’s wonderful. There I was shooting a show in Toronto, like during 2020 Well, I guess 2021 anyways, I started doing a lot of at home baking, and was making croissants from scratch, and I was making donuts from scratch. And there was a store in Rossville that I bought a great Danish dough whisk and then a huge balloon whisk from I love it. There it was, like, the only thing keeping me sane was baking.

 

Samantha Bee  06:18

Oh, you love to bake. I love to bake too. Oh, is it like a meditation for you?

 

Mackenzie Davis  06:23

Yeah, I mean, I quite like baking because it’s so it’s like, not that creative in a way that I like, like, I like having a set of rules that you can’t really divert from, and then with within those you can add your own flavors and stuff. But there’s, I follow this newsletter called Cooking projects. Kitchen projects. It’s called Kitchen projects, it’s great where she does like, a lot of, like, the sort of recipe development you do in a bakery, and doing like, you know, moisture levels and different types of flowers and different bake times and different types of fats, until she gets down to the recipe. But she includes all of the experimentation up to that point, so you have like, all of this data to read, and then the like, perfect way to make the recipe. And there’s something about how like, strict baking is.

 

Samantha Bee  07:13

Yes, I share your love of kitchen science. And then the result is, like, after all this chemistry that you’ve done, and after all this, like, this perfect alchemy, you get to eat warm croissants that you make, with jam,

 

Mackenzie Davis  07:29

I know, and to see them, like, develop, and be like, oh, okay, so that’s what combination is. And this is, I don’t know, I feel like there’s you learn so much in the process. And like, really respect the thing. I’m actually not that great of a cook or a baker, but I like being like an amateur who wants to do better. I thrive in those sorts of environments.

 

Samantha Bee  07:47

Me too. I love to have an expert tell me how to do something, and then the job is just to follow, like, the journey of the they just teach you how to do and then you’re like, oh, I think I get it now. Like it’s all connections. It gets you out of reality a little bit like, it’s like, yeah, yes, relaxing, like, prayer or something like that. It’s like.

 

Mackenzie Davis  08:08

The exact same way I like, that’s how I use cooking and and baking. So, like, I’m on a job right now. That’s like a six month job of shooting in Scotland for a long time, okay? And I just, like, the first thing I do and I go to a new place is buy, like, a full pantry. Like, I get all my condiments. I get everything. Because when I finish work, even if I’m really tired, I want to, like, cook a meal, prepare my lunch for the next day. Like, kind of take care of myself, like, learn my lines while I’m walking around the kitchen and having this sort of triangulation of a different task that keeps me focused on the like cooking is the way into learning my lines or preparing for the next day. Like the diversion from the job at hand lets me focus more on the task, you know.

 

Samantha Bee  08:53

I don’t want to say that this is a Canadian thing, but there is something like about I do think that, okay, I’m gonna say something controversial that people out in the world might not agree with, but I do think, like in Canada, like growing up, you grew up in Vancouver, right?

 

Mackenzie Davis  09:07

Yeah.

 

Samantha Bee  09:08

We are food culture. Farmers Markets is a very much a part of life. It’s like, I feel like, when I came to the United States 20 odd years ago, people were like, I don’t know how to eat. I never cook. I just store dishes in my stove. And I was like, what? How do you make food for yourself? It’s so fundamental, I don’t get it.

 

Mackenzie Davis  09:30

I know it was, so I’ve never thought about it being a Canadian thing, but I love cleaning things because we don’t do a lot of that.

 

Samantha Bee  09:36

I know. So that’s wholesome. It’s wholesome.

 

Mackenzie Davis  09:39

But, yeah, my mom, like she’s a businesswoman, but she cooked dinner for us every night and made us cook dinner with her and learn how to cook alongside her. And it was like a, you know, inescapable and pleasurable part of growing up, like we were constantly making meals and planning the next meal and like loving to eat. So it’s still, yeah a real pleasure.

 

Samantha Bee  10:01

I like that you take care of yourself that way. It’s so it’s primal.

 

Mackenzie Davis  10:07

It is you get infantilized a lot as an actor, like you just do, because it’s really efficient for the machine, for you to have your food taken to you, to someone to take you to the bathroom, like you get. You regress a lot because the machine is organized that way, to like, have you do your part and, know, other parts. But I bristle. I guess it’s really important for me to, like, not go on a job and suddenly be like, goo goo ga ga.

 

Samantha Bee  10:36

I need a bottle of my special smoothie. Okay, so the okay, so the premise of this podcast is about the choices like, I like, it’s kind of like a starting point, even though we’ve already really started quite a bit I love to talk about the choices that people make and like, kind of like the big ones and the little ones. And just talk about your relationship to like, are you very, are you a decisive person? Are you good at making choices for yourself? Do you know yourself? Have you always known yourself?

 

Mackenzie Davis  11:09

I’m really very decisive and very impulsive in a way that hasn’t fully been a negative thing yet, although there have been periods of like regret sometimes, or just a lot of discomfort. I make big decisions on a whim and follow through with them, and that Mark and I, like, am quite addicted to that feeling.

 

Samantha Bee  11:33

Really? Once you’ve made a decision, are you like, and even if it’s like, a big swing and you’re like, God damn, do you ever get halfway through and you’re like, I shouldn’t have I don’t like it.

 

Mackenzie Davis  11:43

Yeah, I think it’s more that I I’m I’m really impulsive, but I’m also really organized. So I, during the pandemic, I moved to London, truly just like, decided one day, but then had, I was also aware of all of the sort of, you know, procedures I needed to go through to do it. Like I needed to pack up my entire house. I needed to sell the things I couldn’t pack up. I needed to put all that stuff on a freighter. I need to sort out a storage locker. I need to sort of like, there’s all of these tasks that I think sometimes blind me to the implications of the decisions that I’ve made, because I’ll just get wrapped up in the task, and then I’ll arrive somewhere and be like, how the fuck did I get here? Because I’ve just been, like, focused on the minutiae.

 

Samantha Bee  12:25

Why in London?

 

Mackenzie Davis  12:27

Yeah, quite a bit that happens.

 

Samantha Bee  12:32

Oh, my God, that’s so funny. You love a task, are you like? Do you have systems? Do you have? Do you? Are you a list keeper? Are you, how do you organize your brain?

 

Mackenzie Davis  12:42

I say list maker, but not a list keeper. I make a list all day.

 

Samantha Bee  12:46

All right.

 

Mackenzie Davis  12:47

I don’t know where that list goes, okay, but I can write down things and like, like, excavate my brain and just the making of the list is quite helpful. I’ve had people remark on on how insane it is, watching me pack a suitcase and how disorganized, but then also walking through my house and seeing that like sewing supplies is, you know, labeled with a label maker on small boxes, and I have, like, all my closets to organize, so I’m quite I’m a mix of, you know, big dreams and poor execution sometimes.

 

Samantha Bee  13:20

Do you, are you an like, are you? There’s like a madness to the way that you pack a suitcase. But is it actually in your brain very organized, like when you absolutely no, just chaos.

 

Mackenzie Davis  13:32

No, it’s just pure chaos. I just think, like both things exist at the same time. It’s not like a really efficient system my brain, but it’s mine, and I love her.

 

Samantha Bee  13:45

No, were you like that as a child too? Were you like, I gotta organize my choice. My toys are in, you know, color coded bins.

 

Mackenzie Davis  13:54

Yeah, I remember I, like, grew up in a really healthy family. We had, we could have, like, one special treat on Friday. So when Halloween came, I was, like, obsessive about the candy and hoarding the candy and organizing the candy and just sort of itemizing my wares. And then, like, I had a briefcase, like an old leather briefcase, that I would keep all my candy in, and sort of mark as it ran down. But I guess to the things most precious to me, I keep track of them. But yeah, I don’t know if it was that like that much.

 

Samantha Bee  14:22

I do like that. You I like that. You kept your candy in a briefcase that feels professional.

 

Mackenzie Davis  14:27

It was a doctor’s case. Felt it was like folding head pockets. It did feel professional. My most like tactile memories.

 

Samantha Bee  14:34

Oh, my God, that is adorable. There’s more Choice Words in just a moment.

 

Samantha Bee  15:55

Is there a choice that you can look at, you know, from, and you don’t have to pick the biggest one, or just what comes to the top of your mind as something that really changed your life in a way that was unexpected maybe?

 

Mackenzie Davis  17:49

I was trying to think about this before, because I know that the conceit of the this podcast and what we were talking about and the big, like I do have big I mean, when I was in university, I took a semester off to model, and I went to Europe to model, and, like, truly hated it was so bad at it, like, binge ate, like, hated it got, like, a lot of eggs, like, all the external signifiers of I’m miserable were there. But it was also felt like this great adventure, and you know, it’s there was all the sort of signifiers of something really romantic in this journey that I was on at 21 but I was just sort of lonely and sad and really didn’t like being looked at in that way. I remember I went to see my childhood friend, who’s an actress that I have known since I was three years old, and she was in a play at the Royal Vic, was a member of the wedding, and I, yeah, in London, and I went to see her in this play. And I remember just like bawling in the theater because the play was good, but also just this, like seeing somebody who I’d been in school plays with, and that was she was just doing the thing I always wanted to do, and still I was going to university, but knew that that’s what I was going to do eventually. But it was such an immediate, like relief against what I was actually doing at that time. And and, yeah, it was like a very significant sort of night. And then we went out for drinks afterwards and talked. And I remember I just made this decision to, like, get back into school as soon as possible, work through the summers, fast track my degree, and then go to theater school in New York. And then blah, blah, blah, I’m really happy I went to New York because I got a visa, and I got to work in the States. And when I graduated from theater school, I got a job that I needed to have a visa for. And then I, you know, went to LA and then I got Halton catch fire. So there’s this, like, tumble of things that happen, because I was, I was miserable and receptive, I guess.

 

Samantha Bee  19:52

Oh, that’s great, so it’s funny that you were being observed, but didn’t like the way in which people were observing. You think, do you, like, people watch you now, but they see you in a way that is comfortable and exciting for you.

 

Mackenzie Davis  20:07

I think there’s something about being in motion, like, there’s something about stillness that’s like, and I would watch girls, like, it’s such a skill to be a good model, like, it’s really balletic and beautiful, and it’s a skill and, like, a gift that you have a face that has the right angles, but it requires um movement at the right moments and and stillness in the right moments, and just sort of a body awareness that I’ve never, ever had, and it always felt like the litmus or not litmus test, but there was this sort of threshold between beautiful or not beautiful that was the success of what I was doing, and that felt so important to I mean, I still have this taking red carpet photos and stuff. It’s the it’s so, like, low stakes, but also feels high stakes that, you know, maybe I’ll do a bad, I don’t know. It’s, like, quite regressive, the feelings I have about getting my picture taken, that I’ll disappoint people. And, yeah, I just didn’t like how being still and having someone like capture that stillness in the right way was, was how I could be successful. It made me feel really passive. That being said, I think there’s models that are, you know, true.

 

Samantha Bee  21:12

Oh, there’s people who are incredible at it. And it’s, you’re like, oh, wow. You’re really built to demonstrate a different, like, a different way of life or you’re just built for this exact or someone.

 

Mackenzie Davis  21:24

Like Zendaya, where you’re like.

 

Samantha Bee  21:26

Oh, you’re right.

 

Mackenzie Davis  21:26

Like an artist with your body, and you can do both things, but Right? Yeah, it was always it was felt really binary to me, and and a type of like, binary Ness that I had no control over.

 

Samantha Bee  21:39

Oh, God, red carpets, my God, they’re so stressful.

 

Mackenzie Davis  21:42

My God, happened tonight. I’m so oh no […]

 

Samantha Bee  21:45

I know people don’t. It’s so understandable when people, kind of, like in the outside of the entertainment industry, think they look really fun from the outside looking in. But when you’re in it, it’s, they’re very much work.

 

Mackenzie Davis  22:01

It’s work, and it’s and there’s actual like, you know, not to make too big of a deal out of it, but it matters, like there are images that are recirculated of you being the like, public version of yourself. And, I don’t know anyone that’s comfortable with it, but I do know people who’ve sort of mastered the performance side of it, and besides, I’ve always wished that I had a stage name and that, like that part of my life, that I feel like I would be a different person if when I did red carpet stuff, I wasn’t, it wasn’t tied to like who I am authentically. It was like this other character. But it’s not like, it’s my name that people say when they want to take my picture. And it just feels sort of like I don’t quite know how to to engage with it in a way that serves, like the me master and the like, right photograph master.

 

Samantha Bee  22:55

Likei t’s hard when they’re shout, because everybody is shouting your name, and you’re like, where do I look? Oh, god.

 

Mackenzie Davis  23:01

Yeah.

 

Samantha Bee  23:02

Oh, that’s beautiful.

 

Samantha Bee  23:02

Too many people, when I was doing my television show, I had this incredible these two women stylist team, Erica and Aaron, and they were incredible. And they were like, always trying to give me depth. They were like, okay, here’s the strategy. They’re like, tell me, what is it? They were like, you know, we know you hate this. And I was like, yeah, I can’t do it. I’m like, I would sweat. I would be like, all day, a mess, a mess. And they were like, just try it with your hands. It’s supposed to just make it look like you’re just sewing, just a sewing, just sewing thread into a hem. So it’s just like, you put your you’re just like, just imagine that you’re sewing with your fingers, and every time you imagine that you’re sewing with your finger, you’re just like, doing some hand embroidery. It looks very natural. Like doing that. It’s just like, just like, kind of like, you’re just kind of focusing on your hands, then you’re just like, oh, and your hands kind of make this nice shell shape, and you’re not even thinking about it. And then you’re sort of like, making your little stitches with your fingers, and then.

 

Samantha Bee  23:25

It’s really, it’s just, like, really pretty elegant, and.

 

Samantha Bee  23:42

I really try that, to try it.

 

Samantha Bee  23:52

And then they were like, and stick one leg out. I’m like okay.

 

Mackenzie Davis  24:14

It’s sticking one leg out, but I’m like, but I’m uncomfortable, and I don’t know where my center of gravity is and my body is long, and I feel like I’m gonna fall over at any moment. It feels I am not used to them anyways. Who cares? But it’s just a it’s a funny part of this.

 

Samantha Bee  24:33

It’s just a part of it’s just part of what it is. It’s like a separate it’s like a separate beast. You are so impossible, and I think in a in a great way, you’re so impossible to typecast. I’m you, you kind of like, do so many you have such interesting this is a long way to say. I think you have incredible taste how.

 

Mackenzie Davis  24:56

That’s so nice.

 

Samantha Bee  24:58

You too, though, how do you kind of decide what you want to do or like how what is your approach to because I assume people send you lots of different scripts, and you kind of read them. How do you make those decisions for yourself?

 

Mackenzie Davis  25:11

I think it’s something like, like going through different relationships, and with each ensuing relationship, you want the thing that you didn’t have in the last one. But it’s not a negative thing. But I’m like, oh, I’ve done this sort of feeling or I was like, sated by this experience. So I want this sort of experience, like you’re kind of mending the the thing that you longed or you’re filling the hole that you longed for in your last relationship, and then you go and find that other thing, and then it’s just like, so random. I don’t know. I maybe there’s an actor I want to work with, maybe it’s the director, and maybe it’s a script, hopefully it’s all three, but sometimes it’s just, I want to be able to talk about something a year from making it, and not feel like an asshole and like a liar, like I want to stay and I’m I have, you know, I love reality TV, and I love, like, really sort of stupid campy movies. And I also love, you know, sort of highbrow things. But it’s not like the taste is one sort of elevation. It goes all up and down. I just want it to be something that I would watch or think is cool, or a person that I think, you know, I’m, I did a Terminator movie that’s, I didn’t really grow up with them. I don’t have a relationship to that film franchise. But there’s also moments in your life where you’re like, Yeah, I’m gonna be like, of course, like, a career is not so precious that you shouldn’t do the things that you’ll, you know, be happy that you had that chapter in your life, on your deathbed, like, I’d like to do sort of experimental, fun things that you only do once in a life.

 

Samantha Bee  26:51

Right, you’re like, why wouldn’t I get buffs to do something like this? You know, that seems so hard.

 

Mackenzie Davis  26:58

Yeah, it’s hard. And it’s like what I imagined Bruce Willis was like as a movie star, like, it’s that kind of like being a movie actor. So I don’t know. I feel like that wasn’t a cohesive answer. Basically, I have no idea, and it always feels like a crapshoot, yeah.

 

Samantha Bee  27:15

Well, I do well, anyways, the things like Station 11 is so great. It’s so good, and you’re so great in this beautiful it’s funny to okay, look, can we just talk about getting buff one more second? Because I was.

 

Mackenzie Davis  27:30

Talking to if you think I dropped that, hoping to move on for me quickly, you’re very rough.

 

Samantha Bee  27:35

It’s this whole podcast is about, it’s just called getting buff, it’s workout tips. I once had a conversation with John Cena, and he was like, I haven’t had a slice of pizza in eight months, and I really want one. And I was like, a single slice of pizza in eight months. And he was like, no. He was like, the discipline that is required for metallic it seems like hell.

 

Mackenzie Davis  27:57

I will say that it healed, I guess, exacerbated and healed. But like, healed some, like, body issues, stuff for me, because I realized I could work out and did every day for six days a week, while shooting in the months beforehand, I, like, had a trainer that traveled with me if I needed to go to other places for work. I was training for so long, my body completely changed if I had a cappuccino, if I had milk and some salt or glass of wine, the water retention that came back made me look 30 pounds heavier. So there was just this like realization that the lifestyle required to have a like cut and somewhat idealized by mean, a type of idealized body is not worth it. It’s a hell, and it is so much better to have a soft body and like endless pleasure, I just, I feel like it really healed something that happened to me, like through modeling and just being a teenage girl or I was like, oh, okay, so I can’t have this body and I’ll be miserable forever. Or I can have the body I have and have so much fun all the time.

 

Samantha Bee  29:18

Have so much fun. I feel like that is a message that people don’t hear quite enough, like, especially young kids, like I was, I have teenagers, and I was like, guys gather around the fire pit of mommy. Let me tell you something in most cases, not every case, but in most cases, if you have, like, a very firm, tanned six pack. It means you are not living life fully, and you can never eat a pastry.

 

Mackenzie Davis  29:48

It’s not even pastry. It’s like, I mean, the restrictions where I was just eating unseasoned meat and steamed vegetables all the time. I mean, to be fair, I would have moments of being. Strict on it, like, there’s, like a nude arrival scene, and in the weeks leading up to it, I was always on, like, a real strict diet, but I just couldn’t, I don’t, I would rather look worse and have a glass of wine on the weekend or, like, some pleasure in my life. Well, after working out every single day, yeah, it’s just not worth it.

 

Samantha Bee  30:22

Well, yeah, when we see those, especially guys in movies, we’re like, okay, to my son, that guy hasn’t had a glass of water in 36 hours, he’s so thirsty.

 

Mackenzie Davis  30:32

So thirsty, and he’s trying to drink like a bottle of wine for some reason right before they shoot, because that will cut him even more fact check that there’s something in what I’m saying that’s true. And it might not be 100% but there’s something about having like, like an alcoholic beverage or like, a bunch of salt right before you perform that like, shrinks you up even more, but.

 

Samantha Bee  30:56

It dries up your remaining moisture.

 

Mackenzie Davis  30:58

Exactly, you just go fully arid.

 

Samantha Bee  31:00

Oh, that’s awful.

 

Mackenzie Davis  31:02

As God intended.

 

Samantha Bee  31:03

As God wanted, yes, um, do you watch your own projects? Do you? Do you like that process? Or once you’re done with them, something, do you walk away?

 

Mackenzie Davis  31:11

I don’t like the process. I often feel it’s rude not to watch it, because you work with somebody for a long time, and then the director finishes this thing they worked with you on, and then worked in this other sort of category of filmmaking on. I mean, when post production and they want to show you, and I just always feel a bit weird about being like, no, I’m fine.

 

Samantha Bee  31:36

Is it speak? Are you watching speaking? I can’t wait to see it.

 

Mackenzie Davis  31:40

Oh, cool. I hope you do.

 

Samantha Bee  31:41

It looks a very creepy. The the original film is very dark.

 

Mackenzie Davis  31:46

The original film is very dark. Ours is a little bit different, and it’s a different type of darkness but.

 

Samantha Bee  31:51

Yes.

 

Mackenzie Davis  31:52

Yeah, more, more sort of catharsis, I think.

 

Samantha Bee  31:55

Okay, oh, that’s good. I could that is that I will enjoy that.

 

Mackenzie Davis  31:59

Yeah, I think you’ll like it, and it’s not like a really scary it’s mostly sort of squirmy and like, no, not because it’s gross, because the situations are just sort of cringy and uncomfortable.

 

Samantha Bee  32:09

Right.

 

Samantha Bee  32:12

There’s more Choice Words in just a moment.

 

33:32

Can you talk about Halton cashfire for one sec? Because it in the final season you and the other female leader, Carrie Beshear, yeah, she’s so good.

 

Mackenzie Davis  34:55

She’s fine, oh, good, incredible actress. I really yeah. Oh, she was, she’s incredible.

 

Samantha Bee  35:02

She’s really good. You finally get, like, achieve equal pay with the men, even though you were, you know, arguably the lead of the show. I think that it is wild that it’s still a conversation to be had about equal pay. I’m curious if you think it’s harder for women to talk to each other about what they make, or to talk to men about why they should make more money or be on the same plane.

 

Mackenzie Davis  35:34

I’m the rudest person on the planet. I talk about money all the time. I if anybody asks me what I make, I’ll tell them. I ask everybody what they make. The hard thing about the the industry that we work in is that it still operates on like a quote model. So I’ve had male co stars that have a much higher quote than me, and I’ve been able to leverage my pay off of theirs to get much closer to their quote than I would be before. And there’s, it’s not a good system the quote model, because it means that if men are always getting paid higher, their quote will always be higher. And then there’s always an argument for why you shouldn’t get paid the same as them because they have a higher quote. But because, you know what I mean, it’s like, yeah, full argument.

 

Samantha Bee  36:17

It’s just a very difficult and awkward conversation and very like and as you say, very structured and kind of it’s hard to fight that structure, especially also now with like streaming, and it’s so complex. Negotiations are so complicated, people are very uncomfortable talking about money,

 

Mackenzie Davis  36:35

And I think people feel a relationship to their quote that is earned, and like, a bit of a pull yourself up by your bootstraps kind of argument of, like, why earned this and I should have this thing, and like, why don’t you earn this much if you want to earn this thing? And it is divorced from reality. And, like, historical precedent, right? I do find people can be quite sensitive and defensive about their quote and what it means, like, how it reflects on their value as an actor in an industry that’s like, you know, constantly reminding you of your dwindling value for everybody. You’re a temporary player and you and as soon as the thing you’re on is over, you might not work again. I mean, that’s the mindset that’s sort of beat into you from early on, and it takes work to kind of negotiate yourself out of that mindset where you’re like, no, I’m gonna keep working. And I’m not scared. Yeah, it’s sort of like an affirmation you have to do.

 

Samantha Bee  37:37

Right, I’m not scared, and I don’t care about the business. And Business is business, it’s hard not to take things personally, and it’s, it’s hard that there are, like, tiered lists of actors.

 

Mackenzie Davis  37:53

Weirdly, I’ve always found that really comforting, because it’s like, I mean, actors are human stocks that people are investing in or making, sort of, like, futures. They’re like, betting on, on what’s gonna happen. So they’re like, oh, you deserve to make this much, because I think that, like, we’ll recoup our investment when the movie comes out because of this, this, or based on past earnings, or you have something that’s about to come out, so we’re gonna, like, roll the dice and let you be the lead. So it’s sort of so impersonal to me that, like, you’re just using the sort of calculation that isn’t based on, like, talent, or like, how lovely you are as a person, or this or this. It’s like, and then, as I’m saying this, there’s also, like, entrenched sort of racism and sexism and all of the isms within that system that are really personal, but I guess I find the distance from the emotional part of the work quite comforting, where I’m like, all right, fine. You didn’t think I could make you guys that money. I don’t know. I’ve never made, like, a billion dollars on a movie before, so fair enough. I’ll go do something else.

 

Samantha Bee  38:59

Right, is there something that you have you directed? Have you directed? Would you?

 

Mackenzie Davis  39:04

I’ve just directed a short film, but I would love to direct more. I like every time I talk about this, I’m like, I just gotta get writing. I’m not really a writer, so it’s just finding something I don’t I want to do very specific things, like, I don’t want to direct sounds so like, like, I’m implying that some people do, but I’m not just interested in directing to do it. Like it would just have to be something really, really special. I love the thing that I made, and I look forward to making another thing that I love as much that I, oh, yeah, I want to be in conversation with this for like, two or three years or four years like this matters to me. And the matter can just be, it’s like, so silly and it thrills me, or it can be whatever, any number of things that like, stick in your in your meat.

 

Samantha Bee  39:56

It seems very clear to me from talking to you, just from this brief conversation that you do have, like the heart and constitution of a director, it’s just sort of the next thing will be So, like figuring out the story that you want to tell.

 

Mackenzie Davis  40:13

I felt and I and, you know, it was like a five day shoot with, like, so much prep, but I felt like the thing I miss in acting sometimes is the your brain firing on all cylinders you you’re sort of isolating the parts of your brain or your body that are used. And that can be great, but it is isolated. And I love directing because I got like, such a like list, part of brain and problem solving part of brain. And like, adaptive, you know, problems come up and you figure out a way through it. And it’s deeply creative to figure out how to problem solve. And this, like, caretaking part, like, I felt really maternal in a way that was really satisfying and, and, like, nourishing for me and and I just felt like the creative relationships I built in this one short film are so much more enduring and like intimate than the ones that I normally get from being an actor, which feels a little bit more transactional for me.

 

Samantha Bee  41:13

Do you feel like when you’re on a set that you’re actually, maybe even without even knowing it, that you’re observing kind of like, how the set is run, and going, like, oh, I would tweak this. And I think this is.

 

Mackenzie Davis  41:25

Yeah absolutely, especially because I’m in in such, like, close contact with a lot of different departments, because I work really closely with hair and makeup, and I work really closely with costume, and I work really closely with the camera department and with sound, and then the director, like, there’s an sort of intimate relationship between you and these different departments, and you do see kind of what people need and when their job is being like handicapped, and when it’s when it’s allowed to flourish, and what people need to like really invest in a thing, and how good It feels when everyone feels sort of respected and invested. I’d say my skill set is not the technical like, I’m not one of those people that’s behind the DP asking about lenses. I should be be great to know. It’s just my brain does not absorb that information as much as the sort of like emotional infrastructure of a set and and how, like, that produces efficient storytelling and, like, lovely days.

 

Samantha Bee  42:28

Right, well, I guess I’m just reminded of Sarah Polly, who I love, I think is incredible right?

 

Mackenzie Davis  42:35

Our hero. Have you met her? Do you know her?

 

Samantha Bee  42:37

Oh, my God, I met her, and I just there weren’t enough words to say. I especially appreciate how she builds a set and builds a working environment that is so intentional, and I love to meet people who I feel would like build an intentional place or create an intentional space for art where people are feel honored, and they feel respected, and they feel like they’re contributing, and everybody’s kind of invested in it, like skin having skin in the game.

 

Mackenzie Davis  43:14

Yeah, but also something I really learned, which maybe you as a you know, business lady, you know, head of company, tell me when to stop describing but and as a Canadian, I find that my impulse to make sure that everybody feels like seen and heard that like all options are on the table is also something I had to sort of mute a little bit that it’s actually, and I know this from working from with directors, is that when people are too collaborative and too open to any idea, you feel quite unsafe, like there’s something so nice about working with somebody that has a really clear vision, who can problem solve and adapt and change course, if need be, but that isn’t open to everybody’s input, and that it could constantly change. Because then it feels like, well, why am I investing in this thing if you don’t even know what it is? And I had to, I learned that in sort of pre production, because I was really like, but guys, I mean, if you have an idea, I want to take the best idea so you chime in doing that. And my producer took me aside and was like, you should just, you know, hold your space and know that what you’re right, your ideas are good, and it doesn’t actually help for all ideas to be on the table. And it was such a helpful note to be like, part of creating a sort of safe, really generative creative space is having like clarity of vision and executing it with with like kindness and love, but like, specificity.

 

Samantha Bee  44:42

Oh yeah, yes, I had to learn that too. That’s a hard that’s a hard one. It’s like learning saying yes when the yes is the right thing to do, but also learning how to say no and create a limit, and then so that we can move forward, you have to be able to move forward.

 

Mackenzie Davis  44:58

And not coding. Using opposing opinions, or knows as like acts of violence, that like, it’s okay to have an opinion that differs from somebody. There’s all like, if you have an opinion, it’s gonna differ with someone’s. And that’s not like combative it’s just two sort of, you know, opposing forces, and that can be constructive.

 

Samantha Bee  45:20

Where do your own tastes lie? Like, what do you like to? What do you read? What do you watch? What are your appetites? I guess, content wise, you said you like reality show. I mean, I like a variety of things too. But what do you like to, what are you watching right now? What do you.

 

Mackenzie Davis  45:35

Well, I was recently watching selling sunset, which I just absurd. There’s a dog funeral this season that I suggest everyone check out. Like, fantastic. I Art Full camp. Never seen anything like it. Like, whatever they’re doing is working perfectly. I like characters on reality TV a lot because I think there’s this, like, first and foremost, I just like it. I’m not trying to create, like, an intellectual distance from it. It satisfies me, and I really like it yeah, on top of that, I think there’s an interesting like doubling of performance on reality TV, where everyone’s like, wise enough to know what they’re doing and how they’re doing it, but they’re not necessarily, like great actors, so they’re not fooling the audience. So you can see the like, seams around the performance in a way that’s quite revealing, and I think, really interesting, because I’ve been working for the last six months. I don’t watch a ton of movies when I work, because I just want to, like, kind of put my brain in, like, like, when I get off of work, yeah, I want to chill out a thing. I read a lot generally, and then I read a lot when I’m working. So I’m reading hurricane season by Fernanda right now, which is great. I read a lot of Janet Malcolm this summer, who I’d never read before, but just like, read in the Freud archives and then sped through a bunch of her books. I just like being in a book as much as possible. It’s my favorite thing in the world and I like, yeah, I think it’s a nice invisibility cloak when I’m at work and I need to, like, decompress and be kind of alone in a in a space that’s where I’m still available to people and and, yeah, my tastes are so base for television when I’m at work that I really need to have something else that, like, goes into my system.

 

Samantha Bee  47:28

I always tell people that I used to like when I toured a lot, I would always watch the same thing. Like, I would get to a hotel room, I would put my bag down, like, unpack my bag a little bit, and then immediately put on lady dynamite which is.

 

Mackenzie Davis  47:43

What’s lady dynamite?

 

Samantha Bee  47:44

It’s a Netflix Maria, Maria Bamford.

 

Mackenzie Davis  47:47

Oh, my God, never seen it, but I love her.

 

Samantha Bee  47:49

Oh my God, you must it is, it is, like, it’s sort, it’s, it’s kind of what you’re describing. It’s like, can watch it on a total autopilot. I always do something different in it. Yes, always makes me laugh, or at least go what like I’m total entertainment.

 

Mackenzie Davis  48:09

Oh my god.

 

Samantha Bee  48:11

What?

 

Mackenzie Davis  48:12

Have you ever seen? What We Do In The Shadows, the TV show?

 

Samantha Bee  48:14

Yes.

 

Mackenzie Davis  48:15

Oh my god, I love it. That’s the best comedy I’ve ever seen in, like I’ve seen it so many times. I exactly what you’re saying. I watch it on autopilot as comfort food, but anytime I watch it, I’m like, bowled over by the density of jokes. It’s really like, I guess all shows are like this, where the more you know the characters, the more pleasure you derive from their interactions with the characters in this and their backstories are so rich and like rewarding to be familiar with that. I you I love it so much. I think it’s the best one television.

 

Samantha Bee  48:48

So much, and because they’re like hundreds of years old, they have hundreds of years worth of stories in their facts, they can say.

 

Mackenzie Davis  48:49

More wonderful.

 

Samantha Bee  48:50

It’s one of those shows that is one of those shows where every time I watch it, I go, I’m just jealous of it.

 

Mackenzie Davis  49:04

Yeah, I know.

 

Samantha Bee  49:06

Wish that I.

 

Mackenzie Davis  49:07

You guys wouldn’t want around, would you.

 

Samantha Bee  49:09

Yeah, do you need like a 54 or do you need, like, a paramenopausal vampire couple.

 

Mackenzie Davis  49:15

Of blondes? I’ve seen real shortage on blondes on the show, you know?

 

Samantha Bee  49:21

Oh, my God, it was really fun talking to you. I enjoyed it thoroughly.

 

Mackenzie Davis  49:25

Me too, thank you for having me.

 

Samantha Bee  49:34

That was Mackenzie Davis, and I had no choice but to look up one thing she even asked me to Okay. She was talking about how people fast before big movie scenes where they need to look incredibly buff, and then maybe sometimes they chug a ton of wine or salt and it makes them look even more defined. She wasn’t sure. And I have to say, this is the first time I’m not so sure either. I couldn’t find a good answer but I mean, wine is usually a good idea, right anyway, thanks for joining us. I’m Samantha Bee. See you next week for some more Choice Words.

 

CREDITS  50:22

Thank you for listening to Choice Words, which was created by and is hosted by me. The show is produced by […] with editing and additional producing by Josh Richmond. We are distributed by Lemonada Media, and you can find me @realsambee on X and Instagram, follow Choice Words wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.