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Sarah talks about why she wants to mount Babybel cheese. She also helps a caller who fears she’s gotten too close to her therapist and another who is worried his spouse is having an emotional affair with her gamer friend. Later she explains why older parents are probably going to stay stuck in their ways.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Troy, Sarah Silverman, Alex, Speaker 3, Chelsea, Corey, Lindsay, Amy, Samuel, Joe

Sarah Silverman  00:00

Hi everybody. It’s your old pal, Sarah. Sorry, I’m trying not to hate men. I love Rory. I love a lot of men inmy life, but I really need them to get more upset and more aware of what the fuck is going on in this country. Sorry, I just went into a micro and rant. I told Rory. I said, “I need you to be really mad so that I can relax a little”, because this is crazy making. You know, the Republicans blocked the amendment to the save act married women who changed their names. It doesn’t count, which still sucks for all trans people. But they said, “Nope. If your name does not match your birth certificate, you can’t vote”. And they know that disenfranchised 70 million married women. It was never about voter fraud. Let’s take a call.

 

Sarah Silverman  00:05

What a weirdo I am. I mean, I did that at the Independence Spirit Awards. It’s true, I just love that Baby Bell cheese so much, I want to fuck it. I remember that bit and then I go, I’m like, “I want to be the man, pretending to fuck cheese”. I am still a fan of Baby Bell cheese. I have a net of them in my refrigerator. Rory was trying to do a bit or figure out a bit about nets. Why nets? Now, I just stole it. But anyway, I won’t go on with it, but it is odd.

 

Joe  02:16

Hey, Sarah. It’s your friend, Joe from Toronto. My partner and I have developed a love for Baby Bell Cheese. Every time I bite into one, I can’t help but think of the time you hosted the Independent Spirit Awards where you also passionately expressed your love for Baby Bell Cheese, and you were doing this thing where you’re pretending to mount the cheese, and you said you would prefer to be a guy in that role. Anyways, I just want to know if you still have the same affinity for the cheese. Love the show. Thankyou.

 

Amy  03:21

I’d like to find out what percentage of cheese Baby Belle cheese is, because similar to your affinity for fake chocolate, I think that Baby Belle is fake cheese.

 

Sarah Silverman  03:33

No way. Baby Belle, I believe Jack Cheese.

 

Amy  03:38

I don’t know about that.

 

Sarah Silverman  03:42

If only there was a library in our pocket.

 

Amy  03:45

According to Baby Bell, they are 100% real cheese from pasteurized cow milk. The consistency is weird, and when you peel the wax off of it, it feels like it’s just a continuation of wax.

 

Sarah Silverman  04:02

I disagree. I love the rubbery consistency. I’ll like cut it down the center, like the wide way, put it on a sandwich (couple of them), they’re a great snack. My mom always had Baby Bell cheese and she would take the red wax and roll it in her hands to make it a perfect, like a shiny, perfect red marble. Then she took like a mason ja. Every time she ate one, she’d make that wax red marble and put it in. Then she just had a mason jar of these gorgeous bright red marbles, and it was kind of beautiful. I’m sure I was like, “Mom”, but looking back, it’s pretty. I think it’s cool into art and delicious.

 

Amy  04:56

My memory of Baby Bell Cheese was in middle school. People would take their wax, roll it in a ball, and then press it on their fingernails and make these horrible fake fingernails.

 

Sarah Silverman  05:07

Oh! (I don’t know what that sound was). To change the subject completely off the sound I just made, I will say that I discovered many years ago that babies love that sound. They love the sound of an appalled, rich old lady. They really do. I don’t know. I discovered it. What else?

 

Alex  05:36

Hi, Sarah. It’s your pal, Alex from Durham. Do you have any insight on when a relationship with a therapist becomes potentially too close to be really helpful? It’s not at all inappropriate.

 

Sarah Silverman  05:47

No.

 

Alex  05:48

But, I find myself wanting to ask her about her life and just what’s going on with it (with what little I knowand possibly caring about her opinion too much), because I do genuinely care about her as a person andsomeone I talk to and share things with. Is that normal? Or maybe that’s just me avoiding talking about myself? I’ve been going to her for several years, on and off. She tells me like it is, and doesn’t put up with my bullshit, which is what I need, but oddly hard to find. But, I also don’t know if I feel too close in that I care about her opinion too much. Maybe, as long as I’m being 100% honest and forthcoming, it’s okay. I’m just not sure how much it’s okay to care about a therapist or counselor. But at the same time, I do care so much about everyone. How could that not include a therapist? I hope that came across how I intended, and I’d really appreciate your thoughts. Thank you for being you.

 

Sarah Silverman  06:47

Oh, thanks for calling in. Listen. I think it’s normal as in common, maybe to kind of fixate on someone whose job it is to care for you, whether that’s a therapist, a doctor, or a secretary. I mean, how many men have affairs fall in love with their assistants, and it’s just so funny to me, because, “Of course, they do” like their wives are like equals to them and call them on their bullshit. And here is this person whose job it is to anticipate your every need feels like love. I changed the subject slightly, didn’t I? But yes, I think it’s fairly normal to kind of fall in love with your therapist because they’re a person who cares aboutyou, that’s their job. I’m not saying your shrink doesn’t care for you, but it is a one sided relationship. You know, it’s that way by design. I remember I had a shrink years ago, a woman and I had convinced myself. I remember telling people, like, “She’s my best friend”, and I really believed that. It’s really (I don’t know if it was narcissistic or what), but that’s such a crazy thing to think. Because I was justlike, “No, I really think we’re best friends”. Then years in, I remember asking her if she had any children, and she said, “Yes, I have five”. I was like, “Oh, this person is lovely. This person is helping me. This persondoes care. But, this is not a friendship”. This is incredibly one sided. This is all about me, because I pay her for it to be. I appreciate her, I maybe even adore her, but this is not what friendship is. If we were friends, I’d probably know she had five children and that’s okay. As a matter of fact, it’s key that it’s a one sided relationship, because that’s what the relationship is. You’re paying her to help you with your life, but you can’t really be personal friends with your shrink, I think because of boundaries. Anyway, good luck and and I’m glad you like your therapist. That’s great news. What else?

 

Speaker 3  09:26

Hi, Sarah. I have some thoughts for the caller who isn’t sure how to talk to her kid about a grandmother who is no contact status. I can relate because, six years ago, I had to go no contact with my dad – just the casual cruelty became too much. There was misogyny directed at my wife, and it’s still hard, because you feel guilty over choosing to sever a relationship even for your kid, right? But when our eight year old has asked where my dad is, we just talk to him about the kind of people who we choose to spend ou time with – people who are safe and kind. When someone makes you feel bad or even just nervous all the time, if they hurt your feelings and don’t apologize, you know that’s unkind. So, we chooseto spend our time with people who will not continue hurting us and making us feel unsafe. Grandparents are greatwhen they’re great, but if not, your kids don’t need them. They’ll be okay with just your love anda safe, chaos free life, as much as that is possible. And they won’t feel some void over a missing grandma. It’s okay.

 

Sarah Silverman  10:47

It is okay. Listen, some real parents are fantastic grandparents, fortunately or unfortunately. But that is not something you have to endure, your kid will be okay. It sounds like your kid’s gonna be great. Everything you said is right, so I don’t know why my brain is going this direction. But kind, unkind – can be a little bit fluid. Of course, what you’re talking about, you’re completely right. Your father is not going to change, not in his relationship with you. Very likely if he had a relationship with his grandkid. But, you don’t have to endure that. That’s okay. What I mean by kind or unkind can be a little fluid. I’m kind of talking out of my ass, but it just makes me think like meaning if a child is unkind to you. You may wonderwhere that comes from. You may be kind in the ways in which you receive it. It might even kind of break your heart a little bit for them, with empathy for them. There are adults that I sometimes see in that same way. You’re doing everything right and I’m not trying to say, “Give your parents a chance or give your dad”. You did what you needed to take care of yourself. So, I don’t know why I’m going this kind of different direction, but there are adults in my life that I see in that same way. I see them in that same way, as you would see a child who is misbehaving. They can’t hurt me. They don’t have the ability to hurt me because their cruelty breaks my heart for them. I have a friend whose brother really makes him feel like shit. But, when I saw firsthand what it was that triggered him, what it was that upset him, it felt like my friend was triggered by historical stuff. His brother wasn’t putting him down. His brother was being really braggy and I find that to be personally heartbreaking, if anything, not infuriating. But, I’m not him. I’m not my friend, and I didn’t grow up with this brother. I don’t have historical stuff tied to it, but I tried to show my friend how I saw it. And it kind of changed his perspective a little bit, because that braggy shit triggered historical shit with him from when he was little and had no power, and his older brother had power. Because that, it triggered that feeling of not having autonomy, not having power in his own life, it’s extreme – his reaction is extreme. Where that brother maybe lorded over him and made him feel less than that all comes up. But in the context of now, in adulthood, where my friend has total control over his life, those same things could just make him feel sad for him. Like, “Oh, bless his heart”. He told me that seeing through this new perspective, helped him to see it all differently. What I’m trying to say is I’m a hero, basically. But also, life is too short to suffer fools that don’t make your life a better place than it does without them. I got into the weeds for probably absolutely no good reason, but I reallythink you did the right thing.

 

Amy  14:58

I love that answer, Sarah. And it reminds me of I was just listening to this interview with this writer, Ocean Vuong, who wrote the book On Earth We’re Briefly Gorgeous. In the interview, he talks about this experience of feeling like he’s not a kind person, and feeling like there’s others who are kind. The story of how he like, basically got a gun to kill someone. But, it was this neighborhood bully who had taken his bike, and he was working as a farmer. He was totally disenfranchised, and there was this opportunity to make like $1,000 bonus on this farm and his bike was taken away. He just felt so powerless that he literally resorted to the worst form of violence imaginable. So, just totally confirms what you’re saying about kindness. Being something that you know it’s not just like a constant thing that we are it or we’re not.

 

Sarah Silverman  15:53

Yeah, totally. An addendum to that too is that, on the other hand, you can have compassion for your father and get an understanding of what makes him the way he is, but it does not mean that you have to endure his behavior. But, I think you did everything right. It’s interesting stuff to talk about.

 

Corey  19:51

Hi, Sarah. This is your friend Corey from a small town in British Columbia, longtime fan who wasn’t really allowed to enjoy anything you did until it was out of my parents house. I recently listened to your smart list podcast episode. This is something I’ve really wrestled with and listened to a lot of wise people about and what you had to say about it has sat with me for months now and has informed a lot of my responses, when talking to people on this topic. You said something along the lines of, “It’s not brave to say something if you’re not willing to deal with the consequences after”.

 

Sarah Silverman  20:56

Yeah.

 

Corey  20:57

I’m a teacher of five years now, and something I’ve seen a lot of in my students, is an absolute dread of getting things wrong. Even though many people want to attribute this to the upcoming generation, I think that what we’re seeing is just an echo from the past generation.

 

Sarah Silverman  21:13

Absolutely.

 

Corey  21:13

So my question to you is, how do we leave more room for people to get things wrong? I feel like that’s where a lot of people need to meet is in the vulnerability of being wrong, and I feel like you may have some wisdom from a couple different angles on this.

 

Sarah Silverman  21:29

I wish I could give people the gift of the joy or relief I feel when I realize I was wrong about something, because only when you realize you’re wrong about something, can you make it right. There is no success without failure. This is stuff that’s going around. People are learning this stuff. We all get things wrong sometimes (sometimes all the time). I think without grace to fix these things, encouragement, we’re left isolated more than people who have always been right, of which I don’t know any. I admire people who have been changed by what they’ve learned, who see being wrong or who see failure as the beautiful opportunity that it is. Listen, if you can’t let yourself be wrong, that sounds like a prism. You cannot grow that way. I watched my father fundamentally change, and it was amazing. I feel I’ve been changed many times over and I have a long way to go, but I feel very lucky that being wrong or fucking up does not upset me, it doesn’t. I may feel badly for any damage I did, certainly, but mostly, it makes me excitedto make it right. Excited to live my new life, knowing better now. There’s definitely very odd stigma around being wrong or doing something wrong, and it’s odd because it’s wildly human. Don’t we want to be human? It’s part of humanity to be human (that’s the smartest thing I’ve ever said, maybe thedumbest). Again, Father Gregory Boyle, a changed man himself said, “If we don’t make peace with our wounds, we will be tempted to despise the wounded”, and I see it all the time – all around me, and sometimes in myself. I’ll say that in my view – what I find and what I notice, especially on the left side of the aisle, which is where I firmly reside, is a very ironic lack of empathy in this regard, and extremely ironic elitism. And very rarely a path to redemption, given. I know there’s very little room to criticize the left in a world where the Christian right is taking this country with brute force. So it seems like, “Don’t sayanything”. But, I think it’s important to look inward. And in this way, I’m part of the left, and I’m looking inward. I think it’s healthy criticism that could bear fruit in the best ways whilst fighting fascism. So, the one thing that the right does very well, is they want anyone to join you. You’ll join us? I don’t care who you are, where you come from, you join us. A party that is very much into giving you an enemy and making other of people marginalized people, especially. They’re oddly inclusive in terms of wanting your vote, wanting your support. The irony is the left, which is all about inclusion, being very oddly elitist in this regard. So, it’s interesting to me, that’s all.

 

Amy  26:07

Sarah, it’s elitism, not elitism.

 

Sarah Silverman  26:10

Thank you. They’re Elitism. Yeah, that makes sense. Elitism. All right, I stand corrected, but it was funny that I said, Fuck you after saying, like, build to change.

 

Amy  26:32

I loved it.

 

Sarah Silverman  26:35

All right. What else?

 

Samuel  26:37

Hi, Sarah. It’s your best friend. Samuel from St. Louis, I have blocked my best friend of like, 20 years and brother from my life and moving on from our friendship, because he has just gotten more and more radically Christian fundamentalist. He’s a straight white man. I’m a gay white man. Over time, our values just went so far away from each other, and I just kept making excuses to get together. We pretty much lived in the past together as our friendship grew, because we couldn’t live in the present because we didn’t agree. Then, I kind of had a sugar daddy situation for a while, and he got intertwined with it and became friends with this partner of mine – who is a very, very wealthy man, and throws his money around to anyone who’s kind and giving him time and attention. I think that’s a whole different can. When we broke up, I said, “Hey, can you stop having weekly dinners with him and using his credit card that he gave you?” Yeah, it got that wild. And he said, “No”. So, I blocked him and I’m satisfied with my choice. It’s been a long time now, but I still think about it all the time. It feels sad to just let such a long term friendship die, but I also feel justified. What do you think about that?

 

Sarah Silverman  28:07

I’m proud of you for doing what you needed to do in allegiance to your own happiness. Anyway, wish him well and fucking peace out. I think you did exactly. Listen, your gut is proof that you did what is best for you, because you feel good about it. Well done and I’m sorry but, you feel good about it, and I think that’s okay. People grow out of each other. And you know, you can’t control if he is friends with your ex still. Just peace out. Be happy. Take care of yourself. Well done. All right, what else?

 

Troy  28:51

Hey, Sarah. It’s your best friend, Troy from Detroit. I wanted to ask you about emotional infidelity. I’m married, been in a relationship with my spouse for over 10 years. We have kids, we have the ups and downs that every marriage has, and my spouse is an avid gamer, and they spend an awful lot of time socializing with these online friends that they’ve never met. Come to find there’s one friend in particular, they spend an awful lot of time on the phone with. It’s almost daily. Wasn’t an issue for me, except during one of our arguments. My spouse let me know that they feel more comfortable sharing their hopes, dreams and desires with this person than with me, and that hurt my feelings. Long story short, we’ve come round to a solution where we make time and space for us to talk, and that’s great. But, it was an eye opener for me and just wondering if you had any thoughts on the topic of emotional infidelity. I didn’t even know what it was until this happened. Can’t wait to hear what your thoughts are. Love the podcast and love what you do. Thank you.

 

Sarah Silverman  29:58

That’s interesting. Well, if they fell in love with this person they’re gaming with, that’s one thing. There are emotional kind of love affairs. If like what they told you, they feel safer talking about vulnerable things with a faceless voice that maybe is just more of a confessional kind of safety there (I can understand that). But, maybe there’s an opportunity for you to try something new with them. Your partner wants to feel safe. I think it’s very easy to go into your ego there and be like, “But I do this, this, this. They shouldn’t feel this way”. This is how your partner feels. Period. What can you do to help them feel safer? When they’re talking about stuff like their hopes, their dreams, or whatever they said that kind of vulnerable stuff. When your partner talks about their hopes and their dreams, I would say, try notto be practical about it. Just hear them. I know, because you’re banking your own happiness onto them, that you go, “Well, this isn’t practical” Or “This realistically, it doesn’t matter”. Let them talk about their fucking hopes and dreams and just listen. Just hear it. Go, “Wow” “Cool”. Those are good reactions. “Oh, interesting”. “Oh, I didn’t know you felt”. Listen, just be supportive and hear them, because that’s probably what this stranger can offer. They’re not being practical with them. They’re not saying, “Well, you can’t do this because this, this, this”. They’re just letting them have dreams and hopes. And as their partner, I can see how it’s easy to let practicality get in the way. Just listen to them. Just hear it. That’s really what people want. That’s what you want too. A practical answer may not be what they’re looking for. They don’t want to feel judged. They just want to be heard, and sometimes that’s so hard to do with the people we’re closest to. But, do it. You’re gonna see that it pays off, because it’s really what people need. When something’s going on with me, I don’t need Rory to fix it. And of course, as a man, that’s his his impulse. He’s learned to just say, “Oh, baby, that sucks. Is there anything I can do to help?”. And I’ll tell you every time he says it, that’s what I needed. I go, “No, you just did it. That’s all I needed”. And he’s like, “That’s so easy”. Yeah, but it’s hard to realize that. You have to kind of learn to do it. It is actually easier. You’re learning to resist something that comes naturally because you love your partner. The PlayStation friend has no stakes in your partner’s life. So, it’s very easy for them. They’re easily able to just hear it andgo, “Oh wow, cool”. And that’s what your partner probably needs there.

 

Amy  33:46

I was gonna say that also, like “We’re different people with different people”. So, it might be that, like his partner is experiencing a different part of himself, like you were saying that he can’t access because he’s known his partner for a long time and that can be helpful too, to explore.

 

Sarah Silverman  34:07

Yeah. I’ll tell you, I want my partner. I get there is such thing as an emotional affair, and that’s a real thing. But in terms of, I so want my partner to have people besides myself that he can talk to about stuff, that’s so important. I think it’s healthy. I think it’s easy to forget with our partners, to remember to listen to them with wonder and with awe and hear them as a completely separate person from yourself. Because once we feel like we’re a part of each other, it’s harder to be impressed by them. It’s harder to hear their original thoughts and their feelings without diminishing it, because that’s how we treat ourselves, is another piece of that, I think.

 

Amy  35:13

I think. What do I know? I’m a comedian. What you calling here for?

 

Chelsea  39:02

Sarah, it’s Chelsea from Chelsea Toad and Becky.

 

Sarah Silverman  39:08

Yes.

 

Chelsea  39:08

I’m calling because, I really started really happy there. But, my dog died very suddenly. Lloyd passed away.

 

Sarah Silverman  39:19

Not laughing at it.

 

Chelsea  39:20

I’ve never had a dog passed away, I’ve never had a dog before. And Lloyd was my partner. He went through everything together with me. Marriage, Divorce – after all of it. My illness, all of it. How did you cope when Duck’s died. I know Mary’s getting up there and sorry, that’s a piece of vintage furniture I got. Anyway, I really having a hard time. Love you. Miss you. Sorry, I missed you in Jersey. Hope to see you very soon. Hi, Amy. Bye.

 

Sarah Silverman  40:03

I can hear her turn signal. I’m so sorry about Lloyd. It’s just there’s no way around it. There’s no way around loss of life. Everyone you love is going to die, and you’re going to die too. But, it’s such a hard loss. It’s such a big loss. Even though it’s not human, Duck was my best friend, my companion, my co-pilot. It was my first dog in adulthood. I was sure I would never love another dog. I remember tall John came to clean out Duck stuff – all his beds and things. He just came to take them for me, and he goes, “Are you sure you don’t want to keep any of this? You might get another dog”. “I’ll never get another dog”, I said, “Never”. Six months later, I needed a place to put all this love I felt or whatever that is, and I got married. I’m going to be totally honest, it took me a really long time – a few years, to love Mary as much as I love Duck. I remember thinking I secretly don’t love her as much as I love Duck, and I felt weird about it. But now, I’m like “Duck who?”. No, I loved Duck. But now, of course, I can’t imagine lifewithout Mary, but I will have to live without Mary at some point. I don’t have to imagine life without her, because why would I waste this time that I have with her dreading the inevitable? So, I try not to do that.I will say one thing that helped me, and what I try to always remember when I lose loved ones, it just feels so unbearable. I take solace in the fact that they are not in pain. They’re out of pain. I’m in pain, and I can handle that. All right. Sorry, Chelsea. All right. What else?

 

Lindsay  42:33

Hi, Sarah. It’s your old pal, Lindsay. I love your show and I’m wondering how you would handle a situation I’m in. My siblings and I are all in our 40s, and our parents are in their late 70s. They’ve been married for more than 50 years in an extremely gender conforming dynamic. They’re very different people and have never seemed to like each other very much. My dad is an easy going and hard working guy, content in his life, but extremely lacking in empathy for other people’s perspectives and struggles. My mother is generally really joyful and generous, but chronically unable to recognize and process her own emotions, which by now are just a mass of anger and resentment that my dad often treats her as a domestic secretary. She’s become increasingly rude and mean to him and criticizes everything he does, he’s baffled by her behavior. Just endures it for days or weeks on end, until he gets fed up and lashes outat her, then the cycle begins again. Over the past decade, I’ve talked with them about this separately,and I’ve talked with them about it together. I’ve tried to play therapist, and I’ve repeatedly urged them tosee an actual therapist. Nothing has helped, and neither of them shows any real interest in or capacityfor doing the work it would take to shift this horrible pattern. They each basically just believe it’s the other person’s fault. It makes my heart ache to see them interacting in this way. My siblings have also noticed things getting worse and are distressed. What do you think we should do, Sarah?

 

Sarah Silverman  44:01

I’m so sorry. It’s so hard to watch. You could take solace in the fact that your siblings see it too, and you’re not alone in this. But the truth is, I hate to say it (and maybe I’m wrong), but most likely your parents are not going to change. They have a co-dependence. It isn’t necessarily their happiness, right? It definitely isn’t, but it’s what’s familiar to them. Even though you can so clearly see a path to each of them having so much more happiness in this life – more often than not. The people our parents age, co-dependence, complacency, clinging to what’s familiar over what they may want for themselves will prevail. You can try, sure. But, I think maybe better for you to detach with love. Not lose connection with them, I don’t mean detach literally or in that way. But, to find some piece or some version of this (just notmy problem to solve). I know you love them and you want this for them and for yourselves, right? But, I think, try to make the best of your time with them together and individually. I hate that basically, my advice don’t try to fix this. You can try, but you are very likely not going to make them see.They’re not going to want to try. They’re gonna be shut down. You cannot make your parents brave enough to try something new in this life. I’m sorry. I just really think that’s true, and maybe I’m wrong. As much as you can, don’t give your health to this. You know, enjoy the good things in their lives. There seems to be lovely things about them, and they love you and your siblings, but it’s hard not to see this and go. It’s so obvious that X, Y and Z. You can’t see for them. I know it’s hard, but enjoy the good things in their lives that they have and that you see. Try to count those blessings and focus on the good. I spent so much time trying to find the exact right combination of words, to bring change in my parents lives and their happiness. Ultimately, it just has to come from them, if it’s gonna happen at all or not. Not the most hopeful answer, but I just really think that’s true, and so you got to kind of do it, what’s best for your own happiness. Dad, wherever you are in space time, we are winding down. This is the part of the podcast when I say. Send me your thoughts, your musings, your questions, your stance, your opinions, your proclamations, whatever really anything goes. But, if you want to say something here, go to speakpipe.com/the Sarah Silverman podcast. That speakpipe.com/the Sarah Silverman podcast. Also subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen to podcasts that helps us. If you have not yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcasts or for all other podcast apps. Head to lemonadapremium.com for bonus content you won’t want to miss. That’s lemonadapremium.com. Thank you for listening to the Sarah Silverman podcast. We are a production of Lemonada Media. Isabella Kulkarni and Isaura Aceves produce our show. Our mixes by James Barber. Additional lemonada support from Steve Nelson, Stephanie Wittels Wachs an Jessica Cordova Kramer.Our theme was composed by Ben Folds. You can find me at Sarah Kate Silverman on Instagram. Follow the Sarah Silverman podcast wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your prime membership.