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If your weekends are spent going from one kid’s soccer game to another kid’s dance rehearsal to another kid’s robotics tournament, Dr. Becky Kennedy wants you to know one thing: it’s your weekend, too. The psychologist, mom of three, and founder of Good Inside tells Reshma that not only is it good for you to prioritize yourself, it’s good for your kids to see you doing that, too! They also talk about mom rage, how the “maternal instinct” narrative actually holds women back, and why some of Dr. Becky’s clients tell her they actually look forward to their kid having a meltdown in public.

Follow Dr. Becky @drbeckyatgoodinside on Instagram.

You can follow our host Reshma Saujani @reshmasaujani on Instagram.

Let us know how you’re doing in midlife! You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Dr Becky Kennedy, Reshma Saujani, Speaker 1

Reshma Saujani  01:10

Welcome to My So Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I’m Reshma Saujani. I don’t know about you, but I find myself losing my temper more in my mid life than ever before. I’m sleep deprived, I’m anxious. Stuff is just happening in my body that’s always affecting my mood. And you know who tends to get the brunt of that temper these days, my kids, as you know, I got a five year old and a 10 year old. They are my heart. I’m obsessed with them, but I’m not gonna lie, they also are a handful. I mean, their batteries never die. They don’t like to go to sleep when I tell them to they love to scream and they love to tell me all the things that I got wrong. Mommy’s always been so for example, when I really need to get out the door and they’re dragging their feet, my temper can flare up real quick, and when shits hitting the fan like that, my go to text or email is often Dr Becky. Dr Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist, mom of three, and the founder of good inside. Good inside is on a mission to break down big parenting topics into these simple, actionable strategies that parents can actually use by focusing on the parent behind the parenting and the child behind the behavior, they really help families heal. They’ve helped my family heal, and they bring out the good inside all of us, and that point focusing on the parent behind the parenting is life changing. It’s got me to kind of stop in these hard moments when one kid is crying, the other one’s being super clingy, and just go, Okay, what is going on with me right now? Why am I so triggered by this what do I need in this moment? It’s also allowed me to take to heart another thing. Dr Becky says, It’s my weekend too. I know so simple but so profound, right? It’s my weekend too. I don’t we don’t have to always just live for our kids, and we don’t have to feel guilty when we’re taking time for ourselves, getting that nap, watching that white lotus episode. I mean, doing whatever it is that we want to do. She reminded me that it’s actually important that our kids see us putting ourselves first, because if we don’t, we’re just creating this generational cycle of people who are always going to live for others, and not in a good way, but in a way that just exhausts them and just tires them out. And so for me, I’m not going to feel guilty about not going to that Lego robotics competition on the weekend again. I’m not going to feel guilty when I just drop them off and be like, have fun, baby. I don’t have to sit there for nine hours and just watch him. I can go get that massage, read that book, or just do my favorite thing, nothing. And that’s the way that I become the best parent possible, by putting my oxygen mask on first and taking care of me. If mommy’s good, the family’s good, I want to show up 100% for my kids when it matters the most. So enjoy this conversation with Dr Becky. I hope you’ll get something out of it mid lifers. I know you will. Dr Becky, we talk a lot on the show about mindset and about our mindset in midlife, and literally, it varies for everybody. Like some people like, I love this. It’s amazing. I feel so strong and powerful. And other people are like, this is like, everything’s gone to hell in a hand basket. So what’s your midlife mindset?

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  04:57

You know, it’s so it’s a. It’s a good day to ask me that, can I?

 

Reshma Saujani  05:01

Okay, tell me, why.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  05:03

Should I tell you my my mindset, or the one that I’m trying to adopt?

 

Reshma Saujani  05:07

Both.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  05:09

Okay, no, I mean the one that I really am trying to adopt. And it’s funny because this reel that I taught about this at Duke University recently, I actually took over and guest lectured this class, and I went over this kind of concept I love, and it really is, I think, the mindset in life space I’m in, and it’s called the learning space.

 

Speaker 1  05:28

Okay, so I did see this real, but tell me I loved it. Go ahead.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  05:32

Go so, you know, if you think about a point that we all start at, which is, I call it like not knowing or not being very good at something. Everybody starts there. I mean, your kids start there, and that they don’t know how to walk, or they don’t know how to read, right? But definitely at this point in my life, I mean, we’re trying to really build this pretty big movement, and we have a lot of ideas about where we want to go, but to some degree, I’m like, how exactly are we going to get there? That’s not knowing. And then on the other side, and anyone who’s listening, I’d put your hand and look at the other hand, but I’d make sure they’re far away from each other. And then that side is, let’s say it’s knowing like or quote, success, whatever that means. So again, for your kid, it could be, I don’t know how to read, I do know how to read. I don’t know how to do a puzzle. I do know how to do a puzzle. You know, I’m starting a company. I’m at a point where I feel like we really achieved our goals, and then there’s this space in between, and I term that space the learning space. And that space has one feeling, at least one feeling, but it always has this feeling, which is frustration, because whenever you’re between not knowing and knowing, you’re struggling and you’re frustrated, and I think especially in this world that we live in now with so much immediate gratification and so many exit ramps from frustration into distraction or a quick, you know, purchasing of something you don’t need based on a targeted ad.

 

Reshma Saujani  06:57

Right.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  06:57

We have a lower and lower tolerance for the space, because we have a lower and lower tolerance for frustration. But the irony is success. And I always say what this is my kids, but I think this is my mindset now too. Success isn’t getting to knowing as soon as possible. We unconsciously think that’s the case, and then we tell ourselves we’re doing something wrong when we’re in the like messy learning space. But I think the better we get, not at getting to success, but at actually tolerating the frustration that’s inherent in the learning space. That’s kind of what life is all about. And so my midlife mindset is giving myself permission to be in the learning space, to not know, to trust kind of the learning and the struggle, and not be in such a rush to get to the elusive kind of moment of knowing and success.

 

Speaker 1  07:56

Yeah, it’s so powerful you say that I’m reading a book by Jim Murphy about the inner excellence, and that’s what he says about athletes, right? It’s like, you love the journey and not the destination. So if they’re like, starting an Olympic trial or starting a, you know, an NBA final, they’re not about winning. They’re about like, did I do my best potential? Did I compete with myself the most? And it’s the joy is in the fight to be excellent. And I love that, because I really, I live my life like that, at least I try to, but I’m with you, like I get and I feel like I was there last night. I’m laying in bed, and I was praying and I was talking to God about this. Like, sometimes you’re just like, it’s the fear of, like, is it going to happen? Are we going to do this? Like, is this? Is this really going to work? Yeah, am I really going to meet my potential? And it messes with you?

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  08:52

Yeah? That questioning, that kind of self doubt, yeah? And I think that probably the reaching of your potential we associate with that, like, last point of, like, quote, knowing or success. When I was teaching this class at Duke, the professor, I was, guess, lecturing for I was like, hey, students, here’s the irony. You actually never get there. Sorry. Becky should say this, like, and a good athlete never gets to the point where they’re like, I’ve done everything I could do. Or, right, I mean, and so it really is about building comfort with the journey and the struggle and the self questioning and being like, this is actually all part of this crazy roller coaster I’m on. And I do know and I can’t keep this mindset all the time, but when I am able to drop into no Becky like, this is it today. Like, this is the process. This is the thing I can dig into. There’s no quick answer. There’s no perfect right moment. You know, I think I hear that from friends all the time, with various decisions, like, well, when I figure it all out I’m going to or when I have clarity on this, or, you know, when I can feel good about going back to work without. Feeling guilty about leaving my kids. Like, okay, those things don’t happen. Like, no, no, that never happens right. But that struggling, I feel like, is right, is where it’s at.

 

Reshma Saujani  10:10

But can I ask you a question that Becky, like, look, we’re freaking tired, moms. Yeah, exhausted. Totally, what’s the role of and I’m gonna focus that because, you know, and this podcast, you know, we focus on moms. What’s the role of me? Like, because sometimes, like, I can’t be there and the airplane pilot, right? And make everybody feel safe, because I got shit going on with me.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  10:34

So this is actually where I think good inside thrives. And I would say where, what we’re doing, it’s hard to come across on Instagram, because those are like, 32nd you know, like band aids. But this isn’t a deep way. We always say we change parents. We help parents more than their parenting, which says a lot, because we really help someone’s parenting. So, you know, so think about that. So a couple things, like, I don’t have time, right? Number one, we I think when we become a parent, we realize, like, very little about our interaction with our kids has to do with our kids. Very little.

 

Speaker 1  11:09

Like, all about my mood, what happened to me? Why am I angry? Did I not sleep enough? Did I not eat enough? Did something happen at work? Right?

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  11:16

Exactly, right. Am I stressed about a meeting on Monday and how I respond to my kids saying they don’t like the dinner I made on Sunday night probably has more to do with my unprocessed anxiety then, of course, nobody likes their kid complaining. Everyone’s like so people like their kid whining. No, but how you respond to your kid whining isn’t just about the sound. It’s about your own emotion regulation skills. That’s probably a tiny bit about the whining, and a lot of it, the fight you decide with your partner, the meeting you have tomorrow, and you know all the unfulfilled needs to be had. So you’re right, that’s what it is about. And then I think, look, we often get very black and white. We’re like, I don’t have time for that. Like, here’s the thing I know, when you’re yelling at your kids constantly, when you’re in a cycle of one power struggle to the next, and one tantrum to the next, and kind of crisis management to crisis management. We’re just so used to living that way that we don’t realize how much time that takes up, plus the time it takes to fall asleep at night, because I feel like a shitty parent all the time, and it wakes me up. So what I like to say to parents, I’m busy. You know me, Reshma, I have no tolerance for fluff or efficiency, and that is why I believe what we’re doing is so important, because what we give to parents isn’t just how to handle your kids whining or how to handle their hitting, but what to say to yourself to stay calm, even understanding, why do I get so triggered from whining versus from my kid being clingy? And that’s the stuff that really starts to change your whole life.

 

Speaker 1  12:42

So what’s your best? Because you said this to me once you said, you know, it’s interesting, people are coming to you about their kids, but really, they’re coming to me about themselves, and, you know, and that’s what the good inside community is, is like, help me. That’s right. So what are the things that people are coming to you for, and what are the like, the best piece of advice that you’ve been able to give women, probably in midlife, to help them.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  13:06

So okay, I think people generally come because there’s some fire in their home. That’s what it is there’s a fire. So the fire could be my kid isn’t sleeping, and I’m I’m done sleeping in their room to put them to sleep. That worked for a while. Doesn’t work anymore. Or my kids having tantrum after tantrum after tantrum, or my kid, I might not realize it. This is a lot, but they’re a deeply feeling kid, and so a lot of the stuff that works with their kids doesn’t work with them. There’s always something with your kid that’s like, this is untenable. Okay? And then we start by like, saying, hey, this is true. If there’s a fire in your home, you gotta put out the fire. Nobody wants to live in a fire zone. That’s awful. So we put out the fire. We help parents understand what’s happening in a different way that immediately gives them relief. This is why people say, especially in a workshop like, why do I feel better right away? Because you have a new set of glasses, because the set of glasses you were wearing was making you panic, actually, not the events itself. So you understand in a new way. You feel more capable. You know what to do in a hard moment and what to do outside of that hard moment. So there’s just fewer of those in the first place. That I would say is how we get people to return to baseline, and I love that. That’s called, I call that yellow mode. Help me return to baseline, where I think we’re best is kind of more like green mode, okay, which is raising your baseline better than knowing how to fight fires is having fewer fires. Like, I don’t want people to be expert firefighters all the time. That means you’re fighting fires all the time that’s living in a constant state of panic in your own body. And I say to parents like, I want better for you than being very good at fighting fires. I want you to have fewer fires. There’s always going to be some. And how do we do that? That’s the stuff that has just a tiny bit to do with your kids. That has to do with do I know how to set boundaries, and I bet most people don’t, because we weren’t taught. Do I know how to set true boundaries? I think I’m setting boundaries. I’m probably making requests and then feeling resentful. Do I know how to recognize my own needs? Do I know how to get my needs met, even if it inconveniences other family.

 

Reshma Saujani  15:06

People.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  15:07

That’s right. Do I know how to repair with myself and with my kids? Because perfect parenting, not only is it not possible, it’s creepy and would be weird for everybody involved, so I wouldn’t even wish that on anyone. But do I know how to recover after do I know how to get rid of this whole motherhood is martyrdom thing and actually be a sturdy leader? That’s the stuff that when parents are in that mode, and then they switch out of that mode because they’re like, oh, sleep problem. Just help. We’re always moving around. But that’s the stuff that parents say. And this is we just had this kind of mini retreat of these members. And this is going to sound cheesy, and but what they say is, they say good inside has changed my life, not my parenting, not my kids, because they’re like, I finally feel confident like, this is Is it weird Becky that I actually look forward to my kid having a meltdown in public because, because I actually feel like I know exactly what to do, And I kind of feel like a powerful badass, like knowing it. I’m like, no, I think it’s probably what happens to a pilot when they feel really prepared. They’re not crossing their fingers and saying, I hope there’s not turbulence. They’re like, you know what? Whatever weather comes my way, boom [..], I’ve got it. And that’s what I want for parents. That’s really what I want for moms. That power.

 

Speaker 1  20:43

I think what we the trap that we fall into. I think about my this past weekend, right? Like, everything I did, I did for my kids. I went and searched for three tennis courts on Saturday because my son wanted to play tennis. And, like, did nothing for myself. I spent my all day on Sunday at a Lego League. Yeah. I mean, convention,

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  22:54

Whatever you got to text me, you got to text me.

 

Reshma Saujani  22:57

And this is.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  22:58

This is, I think, an issue, because then we feel exhausted and resentful. And then I always imagine there are these parts of us that are like, remember your friends? Remember how you like to read a book? And they’re like, trying to get our attention. And we’re like, no, there’s Lego tournaments to attend. I have to watch my perfectly below average son play baseball for 19 hours, okay, for my whole weekend, right?

 

Speaker 1  23:23

And both of us have to be here, and when either one of us could have left at any moment, and had a spa day, had a brunch, read a book, and.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  23:32

It’s right, fine. And then I feel like those parts of us, because they’ve been trying to get our attention with like reasonable voices when people talk about these moments of rage, when they scare themselves, as a mom, I really do visualize it’s like those parts of us being like, I was trying to get your attention earlier, and you didn’t listen, and I’m actually trying to save you. Like you don’t really want this life for yourself.

 

Speaker 1  23:56

You really don’t what’s the advice that you give right that into because I think it often starts with this idea of intensive parenting, right, this sense of guilt. And you just said the first thing, you said, boundaries, boundaries. How boundaries?

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  24:11

So let’s talk about boundaries. And I love pilots. Okay? I mean, I actually don’t know any pilots, but I love pilot metaphors. And the reason is because there’s very few times in your adulthood where your safety is fully dependent on another adult. Like, I know you have a husband, I’m sure you love him, but like, you literally could survive without him. You can’t survive on a plane without the pilot, right? And that is the best metaphor. So here, let’s just start with this, and we’ll get to the specifics. I want your magic getting on a plane and hearing a pilot feeling I love piloting. I love it. I love it so much, and I love you all so much. I haven’t slept in a week in a week, because I love piloting. And okay, Reshma, you and I on that plane were like.

 

Speaker 1  24:51

Get me off this plane.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  24:55

And tell and by the way, I once used this metaphor, and someone raised their hand in a group, they’re like, no. No, there’s laws. And I was like, Oh, my goodness, you’re right. Aren’t there laws like, you’ve been waiting for a plan, and they’re like, sorry, the crew is not allowed to fly because there’s laws that mandate taking a break. So I think about that a lot. So let’s break that down and make that practical number one, motherhood as martyrdom. I do everything for my kids is as bad for kids as a pilot who loves piloting so much that they haven’t done one thing for themselves would be bad for passengers. It’s really bad for everyone. Number one, it’s bad as a model. Number two, it’s bad for kids to see wow my own desires and wants, have the power to run my parent into the ground. And, number three, it creates remarkably entitled children who are like the whole world is meant for my pleasure. Whenever I want something that shall happen, right? Like no matter what sport, what Friday night, football, what tournament, what team like, anything I want, I have the power to change my family structure around. Now, is there something between that and, oh my goodness, I don’t ever let my kid have a playdate, of course, like there’s a lot between that. But I think it’s helpful as a parent just to say where do I fall in that spectrum, because it just gives us insight into how to get a little closer to the middle. So I’m a mom of three, and this is something me and my husband talk about it a lot, because I’m someone who tries effort, I can get it all in. And Friday Night Lights is a good one. No shade to Friday Night Lights in New York City. But Friday Night Lights is like all these kids playing flag football, and at least in my case, like none of my kids, this is, you know, it’s like, fine. They like it. It’s not even like, forget whether they’re good or not. It’s not like this is their number one sport, okay, that they love, and it has a huge impact on me and my husband, because we would like to spend Friday cooking dinner, just ourselves, not going out, just like chilling. And as our kids get older, it’s a lovely night to like, be with them, maybe watch a movie, do a puzzle, the things that we actually really do try to do to keep our family functioning. And so we did not sign up our seven year old for Friday Night Lights, even though all of his friends do it. And I can tell you, a couple years ago, when my older one wanted to do it, what we said to him is, look, we spend a lot of time at basketball, baseball. You’re old enough now I want to tell you, we’ll probably come to one out of every four to five Friday Night Lights. And there’s something that’s good about that for you, like you’d be doing it because you love to do it, not to be watched. Now, I have to be honest, I was probably one of the only parents who did that.

 

Reshma Saujani  27:31

Right, that pulled up, dropped them off and, like, left.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  27:33

By the way, I did not pull up and drop off. I got that kind of car pool I’m having my Friday night. Do you not hear me? I’m cooking dinner. I’m not pulling up and dropping off. No, there were plenty of parents going, okay, and and again, we don’t ever want to be defined as a parent by one moment, like, you know, when he was doing that, I was able to be with my other kids, or I was going to his basketball game. But again, it’s about the spectrum. And I think, yes, I do want to give parents permission to say I am not doing everything on a weekend to optimize for my kid. I have this phrase, I don’t know if you it’s my weekend too. Like it’s, it’s my weekend too. How about my weekend, right? And again, it’s not good for your kids, for them to think they have full ownership. No wonder we’re worried about kids becoming unable to tolerate frustration and disappointment, like there is a reason to set a boundary. And this comes back to a parent’s job, because let me just play out this flag football thing. When I told my youngest one, my seven year old, that he wasn’t going to do flag football, you know, this specific will take it kind of whatever semester ish by semester, when I said that to him, and I said in a respectful way, it wasn’t like, no, that’s not important. I was like, Look, here’s what you’re doing. We can’t make that work. We think about you, and we think about the family. And this is one of those times that the impact is really big on the family, and we’re gonna skip it. And there’s probably other things. Whatever he does not say to me, Mom, that’s it’s really reasonable, and I love that you’re protecting your your needs and your, yeah, what it is your weekend too. And I want to give you a high five. No, okay? And I say that because people, what did he do? What do you think he did the first time I told him he had a he had a tantrum. Of course he did. Because a tantrum is just a way of saying, I want something, and I’m not getting it like that’s actually very normal, and so we can’t expect our kids to high five US and approve the decisions we make that are for our own benefit or for the benefit of the family, or even for the benefit of our kids long term, the only decisions we ever make that we get approval from our kids for are the ones that bring them short term, immediate gratification, which we all do sometimes because it’s fun or because we just can’t deal with the meltdown, but yeah, when we realize our kids push back and meltdown is actually a sign that we set a boundary or we’re taking care of ourselves or protecting the family. Unit instead of a single child, it actually changes the game, because you’re like, Oh, I guess I kind of did the thing I wanted to do, even though it’s not an enjoyable moment.

 

Speaker 1  30:09

So, you know, I’m sure you saw the Surgeon General had that report about the mental health of parents, right, and that 41% of parents right say that they’re so stressed they can’t function, and 48% is, like, so overwhelming, they can’t do anything. And like, what did you I’m sure that rings true for you. And like, what are some real steps parents, women can take in, like, reclaiming their mental health. So we talked about boundaries. What else?

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  30:36

So, yeah, so number one, and because we’re talking about parents, right? Parents, mental health. I mean, I think there’s an your one to talk about systems. There’s a systemic issue before we get to concrete steps. Because I do feel like someone’s saying to someone who, like, didn’t go to medical school, like, what is some concrete steps to do surgery? They’d be like, Well, I don’t know. There’s probably, like, a system, like, I need to, like, learn about the body first, right? And it would probably be short selling everyone to just get a scalpel and start trying things out, I think the first step, and then we’ll get more concrete as we go. I think parents worldwide have to really reflect on this maternal instinct narrative that has been shoved down our throat for years and ask themselves whether that actually makes sense and works for them or not, I actually think it’s had a profound impact. Tell me more maternal instinct. Okay, I just think about any other difficult job in the world surgery. Do I think there are surgeons who have a surgical instinct? I mean, they probably have that. There are probably people who are more they have. There’s something that, like they have naturally. I can also tell you, I would never see a surgeon who’s getting by on surgical instinct and didn’t go to medical school like ever. You know, I wouldn’t. I’d be like, great. You have a surgical instinct. And what else I think about athletes who there are probably some great basketball players in the NBA who, like, naturally, we’re good at basketball from age two. And you know what they do? They go to the best training camps, they get the best coaches. They actually do the most hardcore training, not because they don’t have something in them, because they do. And yet, parenting, there’s been this, I think, really nasty brainwashing message. And I say it’s nasty because it sounds nice, but it’s really pernicious and holds women back, like you should be able to do the hardest job in the world just by instinct, like the world kind of tells us we should read books in pregnancy, and then you have a baby, and the only thing they say at the hospital is you have to go home with a car seat, which you said. But most parents I know is they’re like, who’s what? Like, how are they letting me do this? And so I think way bigger pictures for every parent to say, when I’m struggling with my kid, do I tell myself the story of something’s wrong with me and I’m not fit for this and something’s wrong with my kid, or do I tell myself, the story that all this means is I’m not getting the more comprehensive kind of really valuable resources that I deserve given the very important job that I have, and I think that really matters.

 

Speaker 1  33:23

You’re kind of blowing my little bit. Because, to be honest, at first, I think when you were talking, I’m like, what you want me to take another class? Like, to do this like, or like, you know, take some parenting. Because this is like, but in some ways, just like anything else, if you actually have some expertise systems in place, knowledge, information, it makes Everything down the road much easier.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  33:44

I mean, yes.

 

Speaker 1  39:42

I want to talk about anger because it’s, oh, my favorite, because you, because you talk a lot about mom rage, mom guilt, like, Okay, what is rage exactly? And then, where does mom rage come from? That makes it different than other kinds of rages.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  39:59

Great, so start with anger, right? So anger, to me, is one of our most important emotions. It is a healthy emotion. It is a needed emotion. It gets a very, very bad reputation because most of us didn’t learn skills to manage anger, and so the anger still comes out as kind of dysregulated behavior, but the anger itself is not the problem, right? It’s like, kind of a kind of an egg cracks. That’s not the egg’s fault, like it just needed to be in a container. You know? That’s kind of how I think about that. Anger is a feeling that puts you in touch with what you want or need and aren’t getting and if you zoom out like, that’s kind of amazing that our body will give us a sensation to tell us I’m not getting what I want or need. I kind of feel like everyone needs to pause and like, put their hand on their heart, be like, sorry, anger. I’ve been, I’ve been really mean to you. Sorry. Like, thank you for your years, your years of service, of service. Thank you. Thank you. Oops. I really mean it, because I do think anger feels very misunderstood in our body, and something I said to someone that they said, really, you know, stuck with them forever. So I want to say it. Here is access to anger is a sign that you still have access to self worth. Because if you’re someone, you’re like, I’m never angry, what I would say is, Oh, you, you’ve lost the idea that you deserve things. You don’t believe you can want things if people don’t give them to you. Because having anger is a sign that you still have access to self worth. So that’s anger. Now most of us, and I would say especially us, women who are little girls, there’s no feeling that is as shameful for a little girl, especially a family who wants a quote good girl as anger, because anger is remarkably inconvenient in children. I want something, and I’m saying I want it, which means I’m probably yelling or screaming some of the skills yet. Well, parents often find that very inconvenient. We get sent to our room. You’re so ungrateful. That’s not how we do things in our family. Why do you have to be so difficult? And here’s the big thing, when kids get sent away or punished for, quote, bad behavior. They don’t learn that the expression of the feeling was the problem. They learned that the feeling the source was the problems. They go, oh, if only I never felt angry, if only really I never had needs for myself, which is why most women, the most terrifying question you can ask them is, what do you want? Oh, no, my husband, no, no, Sam, I’m not talking to him. What do you want? Well, he never, no, what do you want? They’re like, why I’m having a panic attack, because we’re trying to get back in touch with something that you learned was extremely dangerous and led to disconnection, unlovability, right? Right? And so how does this relate to rage and even for moms? Well, if one of the things that was adaptive in your early years was building up a lot of layers to keep anger and really want, and I would say access to desire locked away, then of course, you run yourself into the ground all the time with your kids. It feels like, Sure, I can make that play date work. Yeah, I can actually do a homemade, you know, homemade cupcakes with extra frosting for the bake sale, even though everyone else is like doing, you know, store bought. And yes, I can stay up late because I’m gonna clean my house and make it look perfect. And then you get to a point where, again, that locked away desire that wants something for yourself is so sick of being so ignored and put in a closet that she she shows up big time in a really inopportune moment, and find and you find yourself taken over and screaming at your two year old in a way That terrifies your kid, but probably really terrifies you. And then you tell yourself after I’m a monster, and then the lesson your body learns is, oh, I’m a horrible person. In some ways, the shame, blames the anger, and in some ways you just set yourself up for the same cycle again.

 

Reshma Saujani  44:17

So powerful I was at I was with a bunch of women last night, talking about this point, about how we’re all trying to reconcile the little girl in us, right? And what you’ve been saying, what you just said, is so powerful, is like we’ve suppressed our anger for so long, we’ve suppressed our desires for so long that it comes out in anger, and I think that’s why we feel sometimes the most angry in midlife, because it’s really just toppling over. So do you feel like the solution to this, then is to really unleash our desires, and how do we figure out what they are? Because for a lot of women the room last night, I feel say I don’t even know what I want anymore. I don’t know what I like anymore. I don’t know what my hobbies are anymore. I don’t, I don’t know.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  45:05

I know so look, no, that it’s not like Dr Becky said, Just everyone go yell at everyone and unleash that anger. It’s not for like, particularly adapt.

 

Reshma Saujani  45:13

Or, like, you know, do a little a bunch of mushrooms, and, like, have a bunch of affairs, and, like, you know, move to a mushroom. I don’t know.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  45:19

I know. Um, sometimes I think the real alternative, when people tell me, like, whether it’s parenting help, like we have deeper levels than Instagram or therapy, is expensive, I’m always like, well, it’s cheaper than our monthly wine habit. Yeah, which I think people don’t even realize that’s the alternative. So, okay, first of all, it is very powerful to just take a moment, once a day, once a week, and sit on your closet like, that’s what I do, put my hand on my heart, and even just to start like, I kind of did it before it I wasn’t joking, like, anger. Like, that’s interesting. You tell me what I need. No wonder that scary. I kind of learned that my relationships were safest when I didn’t need anything for myself. There’s really something to thanking the parts of you that had to learn the lessons they did for them to kind of release a little bit. And I think we skipped that step. We’re like, Oh, right. And then we blame ourselves more, like, why is this so hard for me? I’m 45 now. I’m 60. I should know what I need. I’m an adult. No, you should really say to a part of you not knowing what I need, I wasn’t born like that. I definitely wasn’t a baby saying, I don’t know if I’m hungry at 2am maybe I’ll just sleep through the night. No, you screamed out because you knew you were hungry, so I didn’t start like this. And there must have been something really important about distancing myself and you should really, should I just say thank you. Thank you. You got me through 18 years. I mean, how crafty you figured out how to not need things, how to be good for everyone. And this is so powerful to say to yourself. It’s 2025 now, like you have to almost whisper it like that part of you, because it doesn’t know. And I know for some people, listening to me like this sounds so cheesy. I swear you do this exercise, you’re gonna be hysterically crying because that part of you, it’s like, oh, I needed to hear that the parts of us in our body that were put in place to protect us. Dick Schwartz says this, they’re so busy protecting us that they’re always looking out, like hyper vigilant, to the point that they don’t know we’re growing up that actually, like we’re in our 40s or 50s or 60s, and it’s not as dangerous. So that is step one, and that is concrete and true. And I would actually do it now listen one of my favorite I literally just got a message from it this morning. So full circle, and I kind of knew it would be full circle. I’m like, mesh was gonna want to talk about rage and mom rage, right? Which I say mom rage, not because I because our form of rage is unique because of the ways we’ve learned to So distance ourselves from desires. This woman literally just wrote me that mom rage workshop was more helpful than five years of therapy. They’re like, I can’t even believe it, so I just, I want people to know that you are not alone. That like that is probably one of our most popular workshops, meaning there’s no way you’re the only one who feels like a monster. But one of the things that I want to like really give people around there is this metaphor. It’s one of the things I talk about in the workshop. I hear this from parents all the time, but I don’t okay. I have 20 minutes to myself. I don’t even know what to do. So what’s the point? I don’t even know what to do. What would I even do if I didn’t go to my kids, you know, 19 hour baseball game? Do? I don’t even know if I like a spa. I don’t even know if I like walks anymore, okay? But think about this, that part of you, that self care part, true self care, okay, is starving, is starving. And think about if you were literally starving and you were at a restaurant and you were like, I just don’t know what to order. I feel like a friend would be like, Girl, like, just order something. Like, the answer to not knowing isn’t to not eat lunch. They’d be like, order anything. And by the way, you’ll learn whether you like it or not. And I actually think that’s the exact metaphor I always tell parents. And they’re like, what would I even do in an hour? I’m like, you’re supposed to not know. If it was so clear, you clearly have access to desire, in which case we wouldn’t be having this conversation in the first place with 99% of women. So you’re supposed to not know you’re in. Oh, this is a good circle back. You’re in the learning space of figuring out who you are, and you’re in the exact place you’re supposed to be. It’s confusing. And what you’re supposed to do when you’re in that space is just try anything, and after yourself, you could say, rate it. It’s like, okay, did I like the hamburger? It was, Oh, I did five out of five. I got myself the sandwich, one out of five. And then you’ll kind of know, you take the pressure off. I like that walk. Or maybe you’re like, I don’t even know if. I liked it, that’s okay. Try it again the next day, and eventually you’re gonna get more data. But you can’t just wait. You can’t. It’s like not reading until you know how to read. It’s just not, it’s not a thing.

 

Reshma Saujani  50:13

I love that. So like midlife learning space.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  50:16

Yes.

 

Reshma Saujani  50:17

Is about like, trying lots of different types of things, rating them and figuring out kind of what you like. But it’s not doing nothing.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  50:27

No, the Doing nothing is kind of a sense of, I have to know before I do. No, you have to try and you have to experiment to know, so you can’t wait for that certainty. If that makes sense.

 

Reshma Saujani  50:46

So when you feel this explosive anger, what’s my first step?

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  50:52

So let me answer that, but I just want to rephrase the question, because I do get asked this a lot, and like to me, it’s like saying, So when, um, when I drove, when I drive my car to a cliff, how do I not fall off? I’d be like, Oh, maybe, like, let’s try to figure out when you’re on the road to the cliff. And just like exit, I actually talk about the road to rage in this workshop, and like, getting to know your signposts. Because signing up for this workshop, yeah, oh my God, no, you need to do it. I know you’re all the members do it, because I think that’s actually a powerful thing. It’s like, when someone says, Becky, you have three kids, and one’s yelling and one’s using a sharpie on the wall, and the other one is saying, I hate you. What do you do? And I’m like, why would I know? I have no idea what to do. We just survived the moment and then try to figure out after what was going on and have fewer of those moments in the first place. So what do you do when you hear when you feel massive rage building where I’m gonna answer it, but I do think the cure of the situation, hopefully, to me, our success at any part in life comes from asking the right questions. And when we feel stuck as a mom, it’s not because we don’t know the answer. It’s always because we need to ask a more empowering and possible question. So a much better question is, can I start to recognize the different patterns that let me know I’m on my road to rage, and then can I find through experimentation, different things that lead me to exit it? That’s a question. I’m like, yes, let’s do that. But when you find yourself on the edge, I mean, what I would tell every parent is they, if you know this is you, you should tell your kids in a calm moment, do you know that, just like you, I sometimes have feelings, and it doesn’t that get so big that they get in my way of using the skills I have to manage those feelings, and if a parent’s like but I don’t have those skills, that’s okay. Come to us. We could teach them to you, okay, but say that, and one of the things I’m going to be trying to do is, when I have those big feelings, I’m gonna be trying to tell you and take a little break in my room right before. And this is hard, because I’m gonna really want you to, depending on your age, kid, go over here and play with your Legos. Go over here. And if it is, it could be like, go over here and watch bluey on your iPad. I don’t know it could be anything, but if you tell a kid before, it’s amazing that in the moment, I would come up with, like, a code, I’m gonna call it banana, okay? And we could practice, okay? And again, people are like, I don’t have the time. But this is just about how we use our time. We can either use a little bit of time preparing, or we use hours reacting. It’s just a new way to use time. So if you say, okay banana, what do we do? When I say, banana, you run over there, and you build your blocks, and I run as fast as I can, freaking run to my room, and I close the door and I scream into a pillow, or I call Reshma and be like, ah, I’m gonna blow, you know, my lids gonna blow. And then you and then it is like, giving your body a wrap, because it is like sports. It’s like someone saying, How do I make a foul throw when the game is on the line and it’s the NBA Finals, and if I was like, well, have you ever made a foul throw in practice? And they were like, No, I’d be like, okay, well, we’re gonna start by practicing. We’re not gonna wait for you to make your first free throw when the game is on the line in game seven of the NBA championship, no one can do that. And I think it’s laughable, because we do that to ourselves as parents all the time, and we can’t expect anyone to be successful there. So I just want people to know through this parenting stage in a way that doesn’t have to be so cumbersome. We can actually feel our most powerful, not in a creepy way, like in the right way, powerful and confident and self trusting. And in the process of doing that, you start to give that to your kids and that that feels addictive, and you’re never perfect. Of course, I yell and I do all the things we all do, but it can. I just want to give people hope, like it can feel, a lot better.

 

Reshma Saujani  54:46

You know what I think this interview really did for me too. It’s like, in many ways, by taking a parenting class and becoming a better parent, you’re becoming a better person to yourself.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  54:57

That’s it. That is it. It’s not even a better parent. I don’t the word better always like, oh, I don’t know. It’s like.

 

Reshma Saujani  55:05

I guess it’s like, it’s you’re right. It’s not, it’s not like, better. But in learning how to parent, right is part of and how to parent, you’re learning how to be better to yourself. And I do think we all, I will especially say this for myself. I need to learn how to be kind to myself, how to be good to myself, how to love myself.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  55:25

Yes.

 

Reshma Saujani  55:25

And if I can, if that can help me be better, good to my kids, too. Great.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  55:33

That’s right.

 

Reshma Saujani  55:34

Win.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  55:34

Like watching yourself align how you show up with your values is an amazing feeling. That’s what it is. I think that’s what we really help people do. We close that gap and that that’s just like the feeling that allows us to fall asleep at night, feeling proud of ourselves, even if, and even if our kid had a tantrum in the in the parking lot, because we’re like the way I showed up, I feel right about it. I knew my role. I had clarity. And then I always say, we give people wins in the moments that used to send them spiraling. And that’s power I think.

 

Reshma Saujani  56:07

That’s right, such a great this is such a wonderful conversation. And I think just that, that point you just made is this is, I think where we beat ourselves up, is when our actions are aligned to our values.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  56:18

That’s right.

 

Reshma Saujani  56:18

Just said, and being able to help you reconcile the two is such a gift and a gift to give women in midlife, because I think that’s when it’s really like our brains are, you know, we’re we know better. It’s exactly right, and we want to show up in the way that we know we can, and we want the tools to be able to do that.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  56:38

That’s right.

 

Reshma Saujani  56:41

Well, thank you so much, Dr Becky.

 

Dr Becky Kennedy  56:43

Thanks so great.

 

Reshma Saujani  56:45

You’re the best. Always love talking with you.

 

Reshma Saujani  57:00

Truly I can’t thank Dr Becky enough for taking this time with me today, life changing advice. You can find so much more of her advice by checking out good inside there’s a website, a podcast, a massive Instagram page. Just go find it and just absorb all of this incredible information. One last thing, thank you so much for listening to My So Called Midlife, if you haven’t yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’ll get bonus content like me and Dr Becky talking about making sure we’re taking care of ourselves and not just taking care of others. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcast, or for all the other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com. Thanks, and we’ll be back next week.

 

CREDITS  57:46

I’m your host, Reshma Saujani. Our associate producer is Isaura Aceves, and our senior producer is Kryssy Pease.   This series is Sound Design by Ivan Kuraev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltuck.   Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel.   Special thanks to our development team, Hoja Lopez, Jamela Zarha Williams and Alex McOwen. Executive Producers include me, Reshma Saujani, Stephanie Whittle Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know how you’re doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife. Follow My So Called Midlife, wherever you get your podcast, or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership, thanks so much for listening. See you next week, bye.