Passing the Talk Show Host Baton | Karamo
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Little Karamo grew up watching Ricki Lake and dreaming of one day being on TV. Decades later, he gives Ricki her flowers for inspiring so many career decisions he’s made, like starting his own talk show, ‘Karamo,’ and competing in ‘Dancing With the Stars.’ He tells Ricki how much her show meant to him as a queer, Black boy in a poor Texas neighborhood and spills the tea on his own daddy drama, ‘The Real World’ woes, and how his new show updates the way conflict plays out on live TV.
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Transcript
SPEAKERS
Karamo, Ricki Lake
Ricki Lake 00:02
This is The High Life With Me, Ricki Lake, where we find out how my guests crack the code to living a full and vibrant life, so you can too. Now it’s been literally decades since I did my talk show, but I still remember that feeling I had every day coming to set working in live well, live to tape TV was one of the most memorable of my career, for sure. That is why I am so excited to bring to the show today. Karamo Brown. Karamo is no stranger to live TV. He got his start on the real world the year you ended, the year I ended so 2004 and you, I didn’t even know this, you were the first openly gay black man on all of reality television.
Karamo 00:44
All the reality television, there was none there before.
Ricki Lake 00:46
There was Pedro, but he was, what was he.
Karamo 00:48
Latino, yeah.
Ricki Lake 00:49
Right, oh my gosh.
Karamo 00:50
And it was cast because Pedro’s boyfriend was black, but he was never cast. And so that it was like to have someone cast on reality television, to be a cast where you follow their life story.
Ricki Lake 01:00
That’s a big effing deal. And you also, of course, went on to star on Queer Eye as the culture expert, and you won an Emmy for that role. Congratulations. He also hosts the talk show that you all know. You guessed it, it’s called karamo. It is now in your third season. You’re doing it. You’re doing it well, I love that you’re not afraid to get messy and be totally honest. You’re an open book. I’m an open book, and it’s just great to have you on I know that the topics you love to tackle are race, infidelity, grief, and you do it with such great care. Welcome to my show.
Karamo 01:28
Hi Ricki, can I give you your flowers before we start? I’m gonna do it this entire show. I talk about you consistently.
Ricki Lake 01:35
You do?
Karamo 01:36
I talk about you consistently because I’m just obsessed and in love with you. You are an inspiration to me then and now. I still follow your social media and like how you talk about your health journey and how you are so open about your relationships. You just are, just what we all should be, what you’ve always just been, what we all should be, which is loving, transparent, always willing to grow and be better. And I’m just thankful that I have had your footsteps to walk in, and I just give you your flowers, your I’m gonna honor you. I will honor you for the rest of my life.
Ricki Lake 02:07
I’m getting teary over here. Thank you.
Karamo 02:10
I know you here, but you are you really are you set a blueprint that we are all still following, and that’s why you’re successful, that’s why you’re happy. It’s because you have, you have the formula, and that’s why you have this podcast. You’re showing people.
Ricki Lake 02:26
I’m really happy to pass the baton on to you, though, because I can’t imagine doing what I was doing 30 years ago. You’re doing now, in this landscape with social media, we’ll get into all of it. But like, I like to start my podcast with the same question to all my guests, where are you getting your highs from right now? What is bringing you joy?
Karamo 02:44
What brings me the most joy is, and this is not because we’re like, talking about, you know, I’m doing this show, but God, honestly, in the space where I’m in right now is my, is my talk show, because, as you know, I do like 200 episodes, you know, like 200 plus episodes. And what has been interesting about my show is that, you know the people that were left in the conflict talk space, it […]
Ricki Lake 03:08
You’re talking about the host. You’re talking about, like the Jerry Springer, the Montel.
Karamo 03:12
The Jerry Springer is the more, no, well, Montel was gone. Like, the last ones were like, Jerry, you know, Maury, Steve. I love all those shows, and I watched them all, but like, there’s not a lot of time spent on those shows, really diving a little bit deeper.
Ricki Lake 03:26
Right.
Karamo 03:26
Like, I remember your show, like there was always a thoughtful question about, like, let’s get a little bit deeper. Why? What’s going on here? And like, conflict has changed a little bit. And so for me, and this is no disrespect, that’s why I had to say, like, I love Maury and I respect him so much. But like for me, I my guests on my show. You know, you can show your real emotions, you can be raw, but you are going to walk away with tools to heal. You’re going to be heard, and you’re going to understand that this show is about, you know, really finding the tools to be better. Like I give out therapy at the end of my shows. And I’ve been doing this in season one, and, you know, in this, in this talk space, not a lot of people give out therapy, you know, like.
Ricki Lake 04:09
Yeah, we had also an aftercare program that we yeah.
Karamo 04:13
Like I said, again, you are, like, one of those models. You’re one of those models of, like, where, for me, I learned of, like, you have to have that. And I on my show, I give that out. And so like, what brings me my joy and my highs right now are literally seeing people come on my show and feel so broken, and then all of a sudden you see this mother and daughter who, 30 minutes ago, would not even speak to each other. I’ve gotten just a bit of a tool to walk off that stage saying, let’s get help, and agreeing to therapy. And I’m like, and I get to do this every day. My job here is done right, and that’s what’s getting my highs right now, like my real highs, I walk away feeling great.
Ricki Lake 04:48
And did you always want to be on television?
Karamo 04:51
Yes, I would run home and watch you. Yes, that was the dream. Well, see this the thing my I grew up in Texas, and then my parents got to. When I was 15, and I moved to Florida because my father said I had to move with him. But I grew up really poor. I grew up really extremely poor. My parents are not from this country, and so there, I just always felt different. You know, I started identifying openly as gay when I was 14. Oh, that’s with family. That’s with school. And this is a time, this is 1995 like we there, you know, there wasn’t LGBT centers and groups, you know, it was a very different time.
Ricki Lake 05:30
No, there was our show. I mean, I remember back in 1995 we’re doing that show. We were having openly gay people and couples being represented, just like everyone else. And I think that was, you know, looking back on it, I know that helped a lot of kids.
Karamo 05:45
It helped me. And that’s again, giving your flowers. Again, how critical it was for me in a neighborhood in Texas where I’m a little black boy with parents not from this country, that felt different, and then I got to have an hour watching you be respectful and loving to somebody who looked like me, who was black, who was gay, who might have been Caribbean. You had them on your show, and you treated them with respect while you were having a fun conversation. And that is why people, because people are always like, what made you be find that courage to be able to tell your truth and let people in so early, like, I don’t use the term coming out. I think the term is a little bit antiquated, because I think the actual act of what we do is let people in.
Ricki Lake 06:26
Ah, I love that, I actually.
Karamo 06:31
Thank you, it’s one of those things where I’m trying to tell people like, you know, there was a time that saying coming out was empowering, but now we’re in a space where it’s like, no, no one gets the ability to deny or reject me based on what I am like this is my temple, just like my home. If I want to let you in and you don’t want to come in, I close the door and that has no balance on me. That’s about you. And I think telling people like the power is you to let people in when you’re ready is what were the actual act is. But nonetheless, what I was saying is that you let people in such a beautiful way, and you let them just be themselves. And that’s the reason I had the courage to like, share with people and let them in, because it was like I felt normal and I didn’t feel other because of shows like yours, because I would watch and these people were able to talk like human beings and have talk about their partners, and I felt normal that it became like, oh then No, just because of my four walls, I don’t see this. I’m this is out in the world, so you can’t make me feel different.
Ricki Lake 07:29
But how does that translate to you wanting to be on television, on camera, being your […]
Karamo 07:34
Oh my gosh, I grew up in the 90s, honey. Like, you know, like everything was VH one, supermodels, Fashion TV, talk shows, you just a reality TV was booming. Like, all I wanted to be was on television. Because, like, I wish I could say, like, I was, you know, like, now it has a message to it, but back then, I just wanted to be. I just want to be famous.
Ricki Lake 07:56
That’s how I was.
Karamo 07:59
Like a reformer, just like, whatever.
Ricki Lake 08:00
So how did you get the real world Philadelphia? Was it like an audition? You heard about.
Karamo 08:04
No, so ironically, I had finished school, and I worked as a social worker for many years, and I was working with this nonprofit in South Central, and the kids that I was working with were getting arrested at my after school program. So I worked through the day, and then I had another program afterwards that they would come to, and the numbers were dropping. And I found out because there’s a show on back in the day called Pimp My Ride, yes, and the kids in my program were stealing from cars to pimp their rides. And obviously they’re young and dumb, so they don’t realize but they’re seeing this, and they’re thinking like, I my ride has to look good, so I being like, out fresh out of college, did like, this young activist group, and, like, went down there with a couple of moms to MTV to protest, and we’re literally to be protesting. I’m not even joking.
Ricki Lake 08:51
But you’re protesting the show because it’s having a negative influence on your community, the young people in your community.
Karamo 08:55
The kids, yeah. And then, like, literally, some woman came out and was like, who organized this, and I was like me, and I was like me and my boyfriend. And she was like, gay, angry, oh yeah. And she told me to come back the next day for a meeting. And I thought, like I promised you, Ricky, I went home. I created the most amazing 14 page PowerPoint you have ever seen in your life. Like I worked on, I was like, I’m gonna really get a show off the air. I was like.
Ricki Lake 09:22
No, it’s real. It was for the real world at that time.
Karamo 09:25
No, I got I worked on it all night, got back the next day, and they were like, actually, this is a casting for real world. And I put down that PowerPoint presentation so fast, and never thought about them kids ever again, which is so bad in the moment. I was like, are you working on real world? Sure, done, who cares.
Ricki Lake 09:40
Okay, so what was your experience like doing real world?
Karamo 09:42
I hated it.
Ricki Lake 09:43
You hated it, why?
Karamo 09:44
And I’m gonna ask you this as well, because you were young, and you were the first and you also were tackling issues at a young age, like body issues that like nobody else was talking about. I felt isolated because I was alone in a lot of my experiences, because again, no one had ever seen someone gay and black and talk to them about their experience, their life, and so I was supposed to be the one to talk about it all and have the answers, and I’m like, I’m 23 years old, and I don’t know. And when you don’t have the answers, you get frustrated. And now this frustration seems like I’m angry, but it’s just because I don’t know what to say to you, and I don’t know what to you, and I don’t know what you want from me, and I just felt isolated and alone. And so the reason I brought up you is because, like, I just, I can only imagine, like, the things you talk about with your weight I’m like, nowadays we see on social media people talking about, like, body positivity and like, embracing where they are. Nobody was doing that when you were younger.
Ricki Lake 10:43
Yeah, they weren’t. No, it was not socially acceptable. And you know, the role of Tracy Turnblad and hairspray at 18. I mean, it was like never had there been a 200 pound ingenue before. But I, you know, I give the credit to John Waters for sort of breaking the mold and finding me and nurturing me and mentoring me in a way where I’ve been able to, like, sustain this, like, almost 40 year career now, of course.
Karamo 11:06
But wasn’t there pressure for that?
Ricki Lake 11:09
I didn’t feel pressure because I just, and even doing my talk show. I mean, I was the youngest. I was 23 when I was handed that job. I did, the pilot of 23 went on the air at 24 I just, I always had this sort of my friends joke that I don’t have the doubt gene, like I never doubt my I just kind of, if someone hands me an opportunity and they think I can do it, I somehow figure out a way to do it, you know. And I was a big fan of talk shows back then. I loved the late great Phil Donahue and Oprah and Sally jazzy. I mean, I watched those shows, but as you know, they skewed way, way older, and so I was this younger host that they consciously chose to change the genre, to basically get that younger audience. And so, you know, I didn’t feel this pressure, but I can understand why you did at that time, did you did you like the people that you were living with? Because it’s really, do they bring out like the characters, right? And this point the show’s been on the air. It’s not like Heather B with Season One.
Karamo 12:02
Season One, they were, this was they cast for characters and for drama, for conflict and I did like them, but I realized quickly they it wasn’t always mutual, because, again, I couldn’t express myself. So the experience was isolating. I mean, I left the real world and was completely depressed and became suicidal because.
Karamo 12:22
Wow.
Karamo 12:23
It was too much pressure. It was too much pressure for me. Like, I I’m with you in that sense of, I don’t have that doubt gene. But what I didn’t have, what you described, was that guidance of a mentor to say, this is how you do this. Because reality television, there was, you know, there was, you know, there was, it wasn’t a real job, like you didn’t make any money. I got for real world, and I still was broke. But, you know, the world knows you, but you said we’re going back to whatever job and whatever thing you did. And I had suicidal ideations, and I attempted suicide. My best friend Trey found me, and he had the discernment. He left for work, and I knew that I was going to do it then, and him and my other friend named Ray, came back into the apartment and found me and called the ambulance and through that, it was because of that that I had to sort of face whatever demons which I realized that the depression wasn’t just a symptom of the real world, it was a symptom of like the abusive from my childhood. My father not talking to me because I was openly gay. You know the fact that, like, I just felt alone. It was so much that the isolation from the real world just compounded and opened up this floodgate.
Ricki Lake 13:30
I am so sorry that you’ve.
Karamo 13:32
Oh yeah.
Ricki Lake 13:32
Went through that.
Karamo 13:33
I appreciate it, but I’m happy I have because again, like, it’s made me a good host.
Ricki Lake 13:38
I actually agree with you my traumas that I’ve gone through, which I’ve gone through many and as you probably know, I lost a partner to suicide many seven years ago. But all of those traumas I look at as ultimately a gift, because it made me who I am. There were lessons that we would not have learned otherwise, and I’m sure the empathy that you have for your guests, you maybe wouldn’t have had as much of had you not gone through your own hardship.
Karamo 14:03
Agreed, yeah, I was giving my snaps up. I was like, yes, Vicky rage girl, yeah, that’s exactly it, you know what I mean. And so that made me face the demons, made my family not get involved, made everyone aware. Because now it’s like, I’m 24 going 25 and it was like, and it came right at the right time, because that’s when shortly after, I got those papers on my doorstep for back child support, yeah.
Ricki Lake 14:29
Wow, okay, I want to hear more about that, but let’s take a quick break first, and then we’ll be right back with Karamo.
Ricki Lake 14:44
Karamo, can you tell us the story of how you found out that you were a father? What happened? What kind of papers did you get? And where were you and, yeah, tell us everything.
Karamo 14:53
So when I was 15, I had a best friend. Her name was Stephanie. Ironically, for season three of my talk show, we’re doing a co. Parenting segment, because I want people to know how we’ve navigated our relationship. But basically, we were 15, and she was my best friend. She had a boyfriend, and she didn’t want to lose her virginity to him, because she didn’t want to be bad because he was a senior and we were freshmen. So she asked if we could practice, like her gay bestie. She was like, can we practice? And of course, it sounds so dumb now, but like.
Ricki Lake 15:24
My jaw is on the floor.
Karamo 15:25
But we’re kids, and we’re like, yeah. Girl, like, let’s practice, you know, like we’re friends. Like, sure, I’m here for you girl, and it lasted all of three seconds, no joke. And I was like, No, don’t ever want to do that again.
Karamo 15:38
Done with a woman.
Ricki Lake 15:39
What I was like, Girl, never wanna do that again. Girl, and it’s not just shame bodies. I love female bodies. I you know, like, I know where those gays is, like, ew, you know, whatever.
Ricki Lake 15:47
She’s not your flavor.
Karamo 15:48
It wasn’t my flavor. I was like, I could appreciate it from afar. And she we came from broken homes, like I told you. My father was abusive to my mother to us, and her mother was on drugs. Was like a whole lot of things that she moved away. And this is 1995 so when someone moved you didn’t have social media cell phones like we have. If you didn’t have a home address or a home phone, you didn’t talk to them. And so I went on my life. She went on with hers. And then I was coming home, and I saw a stack of papers for back child support.
Ricki Lake 16:17
Wait, 10 years later.
Karamo 16:18
10 years later, 10 years later, I was 25 now, for this child that I did not know existed, and at first I thought it was a joke. I thought it was like, I thought Ashton Kutcher.
Ricki Lake 16:30
I thought Ashley being punks.
Karamo 16:31
I thought, are they? Because I was like, we just got off MTV, and I was like, oh, they’re doing like, a real world and they’re gonna punk the gay guy into thinking as a kid. So I thought Ashton Kutcher is in my house. And I went down to my car, Ricki and got dressed and a cute outfit to meet Ashton Kutcher in my house.
Ricki Lake 16:47
And you are kidding? Oh, my God.
Karamo 16:50
Because I was like, Ashton’s in my house right now, because I was like, I have been gay my entire life. There is no way I have a kid. This is a prank.
Ricki Lake 16:58
So this was the one time you had sexual intercourse with a woman, one and you got some magic sperm, honey.
Karamo 17:05
We would never find out if it’s that magical, because I will never, ever use it again. So one and done, but yeah, and then I he wasn’t in the house. I looked at the papers. I saw her name, and it was it propped me back because I hadn’t seen her since I was 15, saw my name and I saw this kid’s name, and I tell people now that learning about my son is what really saved my life, because it made me really it made me, it forced me, because I said I don’t want him to go through anything I went through to face my demons. So I moved back to Texas, met her, and when I found her, she didn’t know that I was knew about my kid, because she didn’t come after me for back child support. She had applied for benefits, and the state of Texas came after me. She was shocked. She was like, what the hell are you doing on my doorstep? And I was like, What the hell are you doing with a kid like I was like, but immediately we turned ourselves back into 15 year olds, and we remembered the stuff we went through. And you know, she just like, I heard their exact words to me. She was like, I wanted one of us to make it, that’s why I didn’t tell you.
Ricki Lake 18:09
So were you angry in that moment? Were you what were the feelings that you had?
Karamo 18:14
I was until she said that, until she said I wanted one of us to make it. I remember that we just were kids that were lost, and that is what reminded me, oh, there was no mal intent here. You didn’t have the skills, you didn’t have the tools. And so I was like, of course, yeah, of course. You didn’t know what to do, and it would be easy for me to blame a young, 15 year old girl who you know like you were malicious. You did this. But I was like, you didn’t know. You didn’t have guidance.
Ricki Lake 18:40
And how was meeting your son for the first time? Did you meet him during that visit?
Karamo 18:44
Yeah, well, we were set up. We sat on her in our couch, and we talked for like three hours. She was like, oh shit, our son is coming home from school, like three hours. And I was like, what? As I was like, I got nervous and I left because I was like, I can’t meet him. I can’t. Mean I can’t because I was scared. And I was like, I’ll come back tonight and pick him up. Because she was like, I’m gonna prep him now that his father is on his way.
Ricki Lake 19:06
And was there a father figure in his life like did he have? Did she have another partner when she raised him alone?
Karamo 19:12
No, she had four other kids. She had four other kids, and she had a boyfriend, but there was no father figure. And her four other kids all had the same father, but their father was not in their life, and so the kids didn’t know anything. And then also, my son was darker skinned than his siblings, so he also didn’t, you know, feel connected. So he never had anybody. And then I go home, I decide, because of family members, I’m gonna take him bowling, because that’s what you do on TV, like you take your kids.
Ricki Lake 19:41
This is 2005?
Karamo 19:42
2005.
Ricki Lake 19:43
So you meet him for the first time, and does He know of you? Does he know who you are?
Karamo 19:49
Yes, and I didn’t know that because he watched real world, and he was like, Oh, I watched your season. I remember the first time I saw you in the shower with your boyfriend. It, but I was 25 I didn’t know that I had a son watching. Otherwise I wouldn’t have been in the shower with a boyfriend. And so it’s like, oh my gosh, but it’s allowed us to have a great relationship. Because now I’m like, you got to see me at 25 so listen, you know that I was a train wreck. You saw me so I can guide you and not judge you, but I’ll tell you this that first night Ricky, I took him in the bowling alley, and I didn’t know it was a bowling alley that was next to Rice University, which is a big university in Houston, and I’m in there. I’m trying to do the dad thing. I don’t this. I’m just meeting him, and I go to go buy him a soda. And some guys and these, this group of college kids were at the bar, and they were like, oh shit, it’s Corona from the real world. And this time, I was doing, like, all these bar crawls, because that’s how we were making our income, like going to colleges and bars, yes, and I literally got to that bar, started taking shots, like I was still in the real world and doing stuff, and forgot for about an hour and a half that my son was in there. No forgot, because I this is my mind has not processed yet that I’m a dad, and so what my mind has done for the past two years now is hang out on real world and do shots and be a college. I just got to college, and I totally forgot it’s we laugh about it now.
Ricki Lake 21:14
Okay, and this is now, what, almost 20 years later. So he’s how old now?
Karamo 21:19
He’s, well, he’s 26 now.
Ricki Lake 21:20
And you okay so then there’s more to this story. I mean, it really is like the ultimate talk show story. You adopted his brother, his biological brother.
Karamo 21:30
Yeah, his bio. They had the same mom, different dads. So within six months, I asked for custody of him, because we got really close, because he had never had a father figure, and I was doing well. I had my family was closer now because of the stuff we just went through. So I was like, you gotta come with me. She agreed.
Ricki Lake 21:47
And you’re a practicing social worker at this time, you’ve already got your degree.
Karamo 21:51
Uh huh, and so I she was like, Yes, but you have to stay in Texas so that he can be close while we get this acclimated. And I was like, perfect. So I said, I’ll stay in Texas for two years. And during that time, his little brother, what we found was being molested, and they were going to remove him from all the kids from the home and put him in foster care. But I was like, because I was working for the state, was like, I’m a safe placement. You can put him with me so that the other kids could stay in the home and I go into foster and it was supposed to be for six weeks, six weeks certain to six months, six months certain to a year. And one day he walked in the room and called me dad, and I was like, oh, shit, I got two kids. And I went to her, and was like, he’s doing well. And he stayed with me. And then all of a sudden, by 26 I was a father of two, the father of God there are two kids.
Ricki Lake 22:41
And I mean, I would imagine your degree in social work helped you in having the tools to raise these kids at this time.
Karamo 22:49
Definitely, but I would say more. So it was my it was me being determined to not be my father, which is really what guided me. Yes, this tools were there, but it was really more so about like, everything my father didn’t do for me. I wanted to do for them so my father wouldn’t show up to school events. I showed up to everything my father didn’t make breakfast and didn’t help with homework. And I wanted to make sure that I helped with breakfast and made homework. I took them in every night. I didn’t go out. I just, I wanted to make sure that they every trauma that I had that they didn’t have. And so I would say not having good relations my father’s would propelled me to be a better father.
Ricki Lake 23:32
And your focus with social work was mental health in general, right? Because of your own struggles.
Karamo 23:39
Yeah, also like being in social services, you’re nosy because you get to be in people’s lives. In business, I’ve always been nosy.
Ricki Lake 23:45
I have. I mean, I did not get a social work degree. In fact, I didn’t get any degree, but I’m really nosy and curious too. I think that helped me be a good talk show host. Okay, one more short break, and we’re going to be right back with Karamo.
Ricki Lake 24:10
Okay, so your kids are now held 27 and?
Karamo 24:15
Soon to be 27 and 24.
Ricki Lake 24:17
And you know my children, I have two sons, and they’re 27 and 23.
Karamo 24:21
Oh, my God.
Ricki Lake 24:22
And how are they doing now? How do they how do they feel about you being this big TV star and this, you know, you sharing about your origin story and your your children?
Karamo 24:32
They love it. I don’t share on this. Anything I share, I get permission first, like, I’m a big, like, Hey, y’all, y’all know I’m an open book. Can I get permission? And then also say, like, if you want me to stop sharing, let me know. And we haven’t gotten there yet, you know what I mean, so, but they’re fine. They pay no attention to my career. They could care less.
Ricki Lake 24:49
But one of them wants to follow in your footsteps. Is that correct?
Karamo 24:52
Yeah, one of them is doing Jason, my biological son. He is doing extremely well. He’s written two books. He just sold a television show.
Ricki Lake 25:00
What?
Karamo 25:01
Yeah, he’s just saying extremely No, he’s just doing great. He’s just so smart and great. And, I mean, he was on my talk show season two, because during the pandemic, I’d found out that he had a drug addiction, and I found him almost overdosed, and like, yeah, he was face down in cat litter, and I was it was the worst day of my life. He just wasn’t picking up the phone. And I was like, this is unlike him. He’s the one that always picks up and does everything. And I actually was upset because he’s supposed to catch a flight, and he had missed the flight, and I paid for the flight, so I went down there to, like, scold him, and when I got there, the door was open, the house was a mess, and he was, you know, like, gasping for the last bit of air. And I was like, it was just a horrible moment, but I got him help. He went to rehab. He’s been doing great. And he came on season two of my show so that we could talk about, from both of our perspectives, why I missed it, why I missed, like, the signs and and like what he was going through. And it was like, that’s like the family you become now because he’s he’s taken on what I do, where I share my story, to help other people. And this makes me so proud of him. But I tell him all the time, I’m like, you can’t make me any prouder. Like the fact that not only you are you successful and you’re doing like what you need to do, but you your transparency and honesty about what you’ve been through. I’m like, that’s like, if I feel like it’s getting going on in our family, like help, use your story to help. And so I just love him to death.
Ricki Lake 26:31
Wow, thank God you were there and got him help. What were the signs that you missed when he was going through that?
Karamo 26:39
So well, the first thing was that I put him in a box. So, because I have two kids, my youngest son was normally the one that had a little bit more trouble, got in trouble with, you know, you know, the if a teacher called, it’d be about him, you know, like, if something broke in the house, it’s normally like he was clumsy and broke at the younger one. And so I put my oldest in a box, like, oh, I don’t have to worry about Jason. Jason’s got it. No, Jason’s my response. Oh, you know what? Jason? Yeah, Jason can stay home. He’s had he’s responsible. He can got it. And I realized that by putting my son in a box, I forgot that he was still a kid who’s evolving and growing right, and is still going to be confused by the world. And just because he’s responsible in some areas doesn’t mean that he has the knowledge to be responsible in all areas, and when he felt pressure, he didn’t know how to talk about it, because I already said, oh, he has it. Like I used to say that out loud, and it was flippant, but I used to be like, Oh, Jason’s got this, but I would say with pride. But then when it came to the moment where he didn’t have it, he didn’t know how to say it, because he was a boy, a black boy who didn’t know how to talk about his vulnerability, even though his father taught him to. And this moment, you told me, I got it, so I supposed to have it, and I don’t have it, and I’m just gonna let it get worse. And so now I don’t put him in a box anymore. I always say to him, I’m like, Jason, you’re way. You don’t have to have it all. You get to grow. I’m like, but I want you to talk to me about the things you have, and you don’t have the things that you feel comfortable with, you don’t.
Ricki Lake 28:04
I think that’s amazing. And I think it’s amazing that you actually were able to feature it on your show and use it as like a teachable moment for your audience. The show is amazing, by the way.
Karamo 28:14
Thank you so much. Yes, we’re going to season three of the karama show, which I’m super excited about. And again, like I told you already, I’m following in your footsteps.
Ricki Lake 28:22
Is it true? My producers told me you do six shows in a day.
Karamo 28:26
Yeah. How many did you do?
Ricki Lake 28:28
We did at max. We did three a day.
Karamo 28:30
What are you saying?
Ricki Lake 28:31
You do an hour, six hours of television. Backs over.
Karamo 28:35
We do six. That’s we only shoot Thursday and Friday. So I do 12 a week. So I do Thursday and Friday, and I don’t shoot Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Did you shoot every day?
Ricki Lake 28:45
No, we did three days a week, two, usually two a day. The formula was we do a three o’clock show and a five o’clock show. I would roll into work at 11:30 I mean, I had, like, kind of a great, cushy setup. It was pretty nice, yeah. And it was a grind too. Like doing 195 a year is a huge grind. How do you keep your stamina for six different shows in one day? That’s nuts.
Karamo 29:07
Well, first of all, I’m going to tell them that Ricki Lake said that I’m supposed to only be doing.
Ricki Lake 29:10
Two you’re underpaid, and overall.
Karamo 29:14
This is what happens now. This is why they don’t want unions, because then you start talking to other people, and then they’re like, I’m gonna be doing because I thought this was normal, I literally thought everyone.
Ricki Lake 29:23
Oh, I mean, I give you the skinny that is not normal. That is crazy. And you do Queer Eye on your days off, right?
Karamo 29:30
Yeah, well, we shoot that for four months. So I shot that right the last four months, and then we had a month off, and then I come here, and we shoot this for five and a half, almost six months.
Ricki Lake 29:38
And where do you do? You do in LA?
Karamo 29:39
No do, I do it in in Stanford, Connecticut. So NBC has a studio out here so.
Ricki Lake 29:45
Okay, Jerry Springer used to do it there, until he moved his right, am I right?
Karamo 29:48
Yep, he used to do it out of this studio. More used to it out of this studio.
Ricki Lake 29:52
I’ll bet we have a lot of staff that do your show that used to do mine.
Karamo 29:58
I’m sure.
Ricki Lake 29:58
Wow.
Karamo 29:59
But yeah, so again, I it brings me joy. So I don’t feel depleted, I don’t feel that depleted. Because, like it, you know, like sometimes the beginning when people are like, maybe having the the roughest of the past within that first 15 to 20 minutes. It can be hard, but I know how to lock in now, like you just said, once you, once you do 195 episodes of a show, you, you get the rhythm. And that’s like, the biggest gift that I’ve gotten.
Ricki Lake 30:22
Oh, yeah, and it’s a formula.
Ricki Lake 30:23
There’s a formula.
Ricki Lake 30:24
Would you say? Like, there’s definitely from, from, you know, with my show, the doorbell was a key thing that, you know, we have the conflict. We get the story out, we get the juice of it, create a bit of conflict, and then bring out the opposition, get enough fire going, and then we throw to commercial break, you know, a whole thing. But like with yours, and you you have technology to use at your disposal. Now you do this thing with the phone, where you unlock the phone. Can you tell me and our audience about that?
Karamo 30:50
So my unlock the phone is your doorbell.
Ricki Lake 30:52
Right?
Karamo 30:53
That’s where, that’s where we get our unlock the pig like is a ping from a phone that says it’s time to unlock your phone. Because what we the reason I came up with the phone because I was like, if I really am going to help couples or families have transparency, we know nowadays that everything you have is in this and like this will tell me who you’re talking to, where you’re going, what your desires are, what your fears are, because you’re, you know, an algorithm on your social media, I can tell what you’re scared of and what you enjoy in a heartbeat, because it’s going to pop up. You’re looking at it constantly. I can also see through your photos and through your browser what you’re talking to, who you’re talking to, and so I use it as a tool to get to that point. And like you said, that formula of saying, now we have transparency, and now we can use this information for you to make a better decision on where you’re moving in your life. And that’s usually where you hear the tone of my voice change. It’s like no more of all of this. We have answers now. Now we know that he was not cheating, and now we know that this was based on insecurities you got from the last relationships that were abusive and you never healed. Because I have a former FBI agent on my staff who can find anything up to five years that’s been deleted. So we have most of the people come on our show have been in relationships for two, three years, four years. So it’s all within that realm that it’s like now it’s like now you have answers, or we found something, and now you know that he is not a good person. Now you get to make a decision, to choose yourself and to understand that you deserve more. And that’s the formula. So like, for me, that’s where the break happens, and I see the shift, and now it’s like, let’s start to heal. Let’s start to go and that’s how we close out the show. So what happens is that once the first episode end, we end on such as positive healing.
Ricki Lake 32:36
You hug it out.
Karamo 32:37
Hug it out and cry it out. That now that I relieve charged up, and then the next one comes in. So, like, it allows me to be that way.
Ricki Lake 32:46
Do you do a lot of follow ups? Do you bring people back and couples back?
Karamo 32:49
We do a lot?
Ricki Lake 32:49
Yes. I mean, I think those are really effective, especially, you know, when it’s a happy ending and you see the progress that’s made, and if you give them that aftercare, one of the things I would say is it safe to say your specialty is really dealing with men and mental health when it comes to them. Is that, like, when I would say.
Karamo 33:05
I would say, yeah, men, but also I would say, mother, daughters, that’s my real thing.
Ricki Lake 33:08
Really? Why is that your sweet spot?
Karamo 33:10
I think it’s because I grew I’m the youngest. I have four older sisters, and I grew up in a house my mom, you know, like, even though my father was there, he was abusive most of it, and then he was out the picture most of the time, in and out, you know, with other women. And so I learned how to navigate relationships with my mom and my sisters because, you know, a house full of women, they were arguing. And so that’s really where, like, you get three generations of women on my show, and I will, by the end of it, have them seeing eye to eye and hugging and hugging.
Ricki Lake 33:38
You are in touch with your feminine side.
Karamo 33:41
Oh yes she is, yes, she is.
Ricki Lake 33:42
And your masculine I can see it. Do you have a partner? I’m just curious. Are you single?
Karamo 33:48
Are you trying to hook me up, Ricki?
Ricki Lake 33:49
Well, I’ve been known as a bit of a matchmaker, but, you know, he’s just curious.
Karamo 33:55
No, I do have somebody. I’ve been a relationship for three years.
Ricki Lake 33:58
Okay, okay.
Karamo 33:59
Yeah, his name is Carlos.
Ricki Lake 34:01
Hi, Carlos, what do you do for fun? Like, what do you do to take care of yourself? Because it seems like you take care of a lot of people.
Karamo 34:09
So my favorite things are, I love the ballet. I love the opera. Like you can’t imagine. I spend all my time watching ballets. I mean, in another life, that is the career I want.
Ricki Lake 34:20
Oh, wait, we have to talk about Dancing with the Stars.
Karamo 34:24
I do, Ricki let’s go back to I told you, you’re the blueprint we’re just following.
Ricki Lake 34:32
I was on late in the game. I didn’t go on that show until Season 13.
Karamo 34:36
I was 26 I think or some like, late.
Ricki Lake 34:38
What was your favorite dance you did?
Karamo 34:40
A pasta doble.
Ricki Lake 34:41
You know, as soon as we’re done with this, I’m googling, I’m YouTubing it, and I’m gonna watch your dances.
Karamo 34:46
Oh my gosh.
Ricki Lake 34:46
You said the Pasta Doble.
Karamo 34:47
Pasta doble was my favorite, any of those dances that were like powerful. I also love my contemporary.
Ricki Lake 34:54
Yeah, I could talk about Dancing with the Stars for a very long time. Okay, what is next for you? It seems like you are doing everything you can. Chalk it all off the list. You wanted to be a talk show host, boom. You’ve written a memoir. What is there anything next on the on the list of things to do? Bucket list things?
Karamo 35:10
Well, yeah, I mean, like, hopefully more seasons. I’m trying to what number did you get to, you got to?
Ricki Lake 35:15
I got to 11. And then I ended it for new I wanted to move to LA. I mean, I didn’t end it. My contract ended, and we did not renew the contract, so I couldn’t cancel my own show. But, you know, we it had run its course, and I wanted to do other things. And I make documentaries now. I do more behind the scenes stuff, so, yeah, it was, but I did 11 years.
Karamo 35:34
So I’m hoping to at least get to 11 years. That’s, well, that’s the goal that I have here, like now that at three, like, everyone was like, if you can get past three, you know, you’re going to be on a good thing. So now I’m like, I’ve, this is the one. I’m like, you know, everyone was like, if you get past one, you’re good now. Two, you’ll build your audience. Three, you know, you’ll solidify the audience. Then you’ll go and so I’m like, let’s get past this. But I’m also in a space right now where I’ve been, you know, developing and selling shows which I’m really excited about. Like, that’s going to be a lot of my announcements. You know, that’s why I part and help my son. So we sold some non scripted shows that are gonna be coming out. Everything’s getting announced very soon. I’m very excited some a scripted show and as well. And that’s like, the space I am next, where it’s like, I want to create stories where people look like me and have shows that are just going to be helping like, it’s in the scripted worlds, like shows that where characters look like me, and in the non scripted world, it’s about, how do I create a whole bunch of shows where people can feel like they’re getting help while being entertained, like, that’s my thing, like Queer Eye and my talk show me that there’s space for this. And I just want to put a whole bunch of shows out there that are just like that.
Ricki Lake 36:38
You’re amazing, I love you.
Karamo 36:40
I’m a fan.
Ricki Lake 36:43
I’ll come on your talk show. I want to get you to season 11, so if I can offer my services and help in any way.
Karamo 36:49
Yes, when you went on Tamarin and she had all the legends, I called it, I was like, oh my gosh, I am so jealous right now, I’m just.
Ricki Lake 36:56
Oh, I did Oprah too.
Karamo 36:57
Oh yes, of course.
Ricki Lake 36:58
Did it the last season, it was with Phil Donahue, Geraldo, Montel and Sally Jessie. I mean, that was like a pinch me moment. For me, I couldn’t believe I was in the company of these people. and Oprah, of course.
Karamo 37:10
Well, it’s because you’re one of the greats. Oh, you’re, you’re one of the greats, you are really great.
Ricki Lake 37:14
Thank you so much. Karamo, this is really great. Thank you so so much.
Karamo 37:19
Thank you. You’re amazing.
Ricki Lake 37:20
I so enjoyed getting to know Karamo. He’s awesome, and I love that in lots of ways. He followed in my footsteps, but he also has forged very much his own path, not sensationalizing family drama, but really trying to help. And I just so appreciate his candid openness and for sharing so deeply with me what fun. You can find Karamo on Instagram, @karamo, and you can watch him on Netflix’s Queer Eye and his talk show, Karamo on NBC. You can find out more about where it’s airing, locally on karamoshow.com thank you so much for listening guys, and there is much more of The High Life with Lemonada, premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like rapid fire questions with actress and my friend Rachel Harris. Subscribe now in Apple podcasts.
CREDITS 38:17
The High Life is a production of Lemonada Media. Isabella Kulkarni and Kathryn Barnes, produced our show. Our mixes by James Sparber. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Additional Lemonada support from Rachel Neel and Steve Nelson. You can find me @Rickilake on Instagram. Follow The High Life with Ricki Lake, wherever you get your podcasts, or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.
