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Wiser Than Me will be back with a brand new episode next week. In the meantime, we wanted to share an episode of another podcast where Julia was a guest – On with Kara Swisher. In this episode, Kara and Julia discuss how in-depth conversations with iconic older women have radicalized her, her concerns about the commercialization of art films and why she thinks comedy is risky – but still very much possible. Listen to On with Kara Swisher every Monday and Thursday from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Kara Swisher, Esther Perel, Isabel Allende, Recording, Gloria Steinem

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  00:01

Hey folks, Julia here, the Wiser Than Me team is taking a break from our usual programming this week because it’s election week and we want to share another podcast we think you’re gonna really enjoy. It’s hosted by my friend Kara Swisher, an award winning journalist and a really tough interviewer who covers tech, politics and media on her podcast. On with Kara Swisher in the episode we’re about to share, Kara interviews me, and we talk a little bit about everything, including the importance of human connection, the commercialization of art films, death, why it’s still very possible to create great comedy in 2024 even if it’s risky, and how making this podcast and having deep conversations with older women has radicalized me. I love talking to Kara because she’s smart, she’s funny, she knows a lot, and she’s a great conversationalist, and in just the past few months, Kara’s interviewed powerhouse women like Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Rodham, Clinton, Rachel Maddow, Roxanne Gay and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. You can listen to more of her show by clicking the link in our show notes or by searching for On with Kara Swisher in your podcast app. Okay, here’s the episode.

 

Kara Swisher  02:15

Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher. And I’m Kara Swisher. We’ve had a slew of power women on on and today we’re keeping up that streak. Comedian and actor, Julie Louis-Dreyfus, she’s obviously a comedy legend. I’m an enormous fan. She’s won 11 Emmys, a record of eight she got for playing some of TV’s most iconic female characters on three different sitcoms. Elaine Bennis in Seinfeld, Christine Campbell in The New Adventures of Old Christine and, of course, Vice President Selena Meyer in Veep. I don’t know which one I like the most. I like all the characters. I suspect Selena is my favorite character because she’s real. Actually, I’ve met people like her, but my kids like Seinfeld. I love Seinfeld. It stays fresh even today, and she’s probably my favorite character on that show, besides Jerry Stiller and her scene, if you haven’t seen it, it’s on YouTube of her and Jerry Stiller cracking each other up is one of the finest bits of comedy I’ve ever seen. She’s been honored with the Mark Twain prize for American humor and the National Medal of Arts. She is a national treasure, obviously, and now she’s winning awards for her new podcast Wiser Than Me, where she gets life lessons from women over 70, Jane Fonda Fran Lebowitz, Gloria Steinem, Patti Smith, Anne Lamott, who I also recently spoke to, they’ve talked about what they’ve learned and how they’ve coped with the hard stuff, including death and grief, which is also the focus of Julia’s latest film Tuesday, and so fittingly, Our question this week comes from psychotherapist and host of Where should I begin podcasts? Esther Perel. I’m excited to talk to her, and I think you’ll be excited to hear from her.

 

Kara Swisher  04:06

Hi.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  04:06

Hi, Kara.

 

Kara Swisher  04:07

How you doing? Thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  04:10

Oh, my goodness, it’s my pleasure.

 

Kara Swisher  04:12

The movie was astonishing. I have to say, you were fantastic in it.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  04:16

Oh, thank you very much.

 

Kara Swisher  04:17

And I love anything about death, so I’m very excited about it?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  04:21

Yeah, I do too, actually.

 

Kara Swisher  04:22

But first I want to talk about the podcast. Your podcasting empire, hardly, no, you’re doing really well. You just wrapped up the second season of wiser than me, which you interview women over 70. A lot of celebrities have podcasts these days. Obviously, a lot of them are different from yours. For example, I think the smart list is basically a buddy comedy. Talk about how you decided to do this and the way you conceived of it.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  04:48

Well, it just I watched the Jane Fonda documentary. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, sure have. It’s phenomenal, in my view. And I was just riveted. And. And it’s after watching that I really did think, Oh God, where are all the old women? We’re not hearing from these women. I mean, we are really not hearing from them. And I wish there was a place where we could just only hear from old women. And so that’s where it sort of began, and I thought, well, maybe I’ll do it. And, you know, and that’s how it started. It was born out of a curiosity, not an not any desire to do a podcast, necessarily, but just to actually hear from older women. And then I sort of developed it with my with my college roommate, and it’s been a real a labor of love and passion.

 

Kara Swisher  05:47

It’s been very popular. It’s very high up on the rankings. Were you surprised by that?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  05:51

You know, I was surprised by it because I wasn’t really thinking about how it would do. I was just thinking about doing it, if that makes sense. I wasn’t going after it with that ambition. That doesn’t mean I’m not ambitious, of course, but it really means that I was just trying to think of people that would be interesting to talk to it at great, a great length.

 

Kara Swisher  06:12

How do you look at the podcast medium as a way to do that? You know, I a lot of people get in it, and they get out of it pretty quickly because it’s hard, it’s a marathon. It’s a real marathon. Yeah, and some make money, some don’t, but they’re but they can be very lucrative. I’ve had a really good run in that regard. But how do you look at it as a medium to communicate this? Because there’s lots of ways you could have done this. You could have had a talk show television. Yeah, I know.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  06:39

Well, I mean, I guess, because sort of like the conversation we’re having now, which feels relaxed. If you and I were in front of an audience right now and and having to talk, and I was in hair and makeup and all that crap, it’s a different it’s a it’s an absolutely different content of conversation. And I actually enjoy talking to people on their podcasts when we sort of get into depth about things, because I think it’s I just find it interesting to communicate that way, right? Conversation, yes, and so I thought that that this medium would be conducive to those kinds of intimate conversations where we maybe get a little bit more underneath, underneath period. Also, we don’t video the podcast at all, so there’s no pressure on these women who may have a feeling of self consciousness because they’re older. I’m not suggesting they should, of course, but in case, just to make it as relaxed as possible, right?

 

Kara Swisher  07:43

So a conversation this, you know, this sort of My Dinner With Andre kind of vibe to it. How do you pick the subjects in the approach, like, what does your goal? Say with Jane Fonda, you talk to her about ambition?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  07:53

Well, it’s really dictated by the women themselves. We do, I do ignore and with my team’s help, I do an enormous amount of research in prep and so that I can come to this conversation and not squander it. So it’s really their lives. And what strikes me is interesting to delve into. I mean, talking to somebody like Isabel Allende versus Bonnie Raitt or Patti Smith or Beverly Johnson. These are, you know, they’ve had wildly varied lies from one another, so it’s just it’s entirely based on their experience. That said, though there are particular set of questions that I love to hear them answer. I mean, I always open by asking how old they are, and how old do they feel, and they’re all these subjects that I’d like to delve into, like loss, for example, ambition. And then at the end, I might say things like, you know, what would you say to your 21 year old self? Or, you know, what do you wish you’d said No or Yes to that kind of thing.

 

Kara Swisher  09:00

Yeah, so you talked about being radicalized by these women, or more radicalized by these women, that was the quote, who have you been most influenced by? And what surprised you in the interviews, which you didn’t expect? I don’t know, Isabel Allende is a crack up. I don’t know what.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  09:16

Well, Isabel Allende, My God, what a phenomenal human being. I was struck by her complete joy in life. I was overcome by it. And she talked about being her 80s as being the best thing ever, and she meant it.

 

Isabel Allende  09:40

I have a very good life. I’m very happy. Oh, god, that’s I’m so happy. Julia, really, I’m happy to be alive. I’m happy to be here. I’m happy to be looking through my window right now. I live very close to a lagoon, and I see the ducks and the geese, and it’s fantastic.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  09:59

What are you. Think the best part about being your age is?

 

Isabel Allende  10:02

That you don’t have to please anybody, oh yeah, only the people you love and the people you care for, but not the world and not everybody else. You don’t have to follow anybody’s lead. You don’t have to follow fashion or nothing. If I try to look good, it’s because it pleases me, not because I’m trying to please anybody else. I don’t care, really.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  10:26

And that was just like, Oh my God, it was. It was a completely different lens through which to consider aging. Gloria Steinem was who I spoke to for this season, obviously, was just extraordinary. She actually talked about how, as you age, and I’m going to butcher this, she was talking about how, as you age, your inner girl becomes more realized. Do you think that women become more radical as they get older.

 

Gloria Steinem  11:02

I suppose nothing is true all the time, but I do think it’s possible that it’s often true because we outlive the stereotypical expectations of marriage and family and this subordinate role, if that’s still around or, you know, I mean, I think just as we are maybe more ourselves when we’re before 10 or 11 years old, and we’re little girls who are climbing trees and saying, you know, I know what I want. I know what I think. And the feminine role hasn’t descended upon us, yet we may also be more ourselves at the other end of the feminine role. And I always think it would be great if an army of gray haired women could take over the earth.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  11:50

Well, then the Earth would be a safe place, in my view. You know, it really better? It would be much better. It would be much better. There is a theme with all of these women, all of them which is a shedding of what’s expected of you, which, as a woman, which is particularly fascinating to me and important to realize.

 

Kara Swisher  12:13

I believe the technical term is no more fucks left to give. Thank you. But it’s not necessarily a negative thing, right?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  12:19

Yeah, no. It’s fantastic. It’s like I am there’s there’s less bullshit. I say, what I feel I know, what I know, I know more. And that’s the whole conceit of the podcast. They know more, so come on let’s listen to them.

 

Kara Swisher  12:35

Come on. Woman, I will get to your movie and come on. Woman, that was the best, best end line. I have to say, one of the things that I think the reason it works this is a lot about you and you, how it changes your thinking, whether it’s about the movie industry, women’s rights becoming more political, have these conversations changed you yourself, given you’re looking for you know wisdom, you know wiser than me, or is that Wisdom being put to use in your own life.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  13:02

Well, I will say that my reflections afterwards, after I actually have these conversations, I think a lot about them, and I will often, or most often, write with my husband the story at the beginning of the podcast, that sort of will be a thread into the conversation. And so I would say, certainly, it’s, I don’t know if this is good or not, but it’s, I’ve always been a very private person in a lot of ways, and I’ve made a bit of a shift in terms of sharing aspects of myself. I don’t know if I’m ultimately going to regret that, but I have done that, in a way that I find surprising, right?

 

Kara Swisher  13:49

You do realize you don’t have that much time for regret anymore, so it’s okay, yeah, let them out, but you also call your mom and talk to her about them.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  13:57

Oh, yeah.

 

Kara Swisher  13:58

How does that go? Yeah?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  14:00

Well, this occurred to me to do when we were developing the show, because my mother is very intelligent, curious. She’s completely with it. She’s 90, and she has been my she’s been my beloved mother. I don’t know what else to say, and so I and she’s very intellectual, and so I thought, my God, of all the women I must, I must include my mother in this in some way. So the idea of downloading with my mom feels right, because I download with my mom and I enjoy her. I thought maybe people would enjoy and.

 

Kara Swisher  14:40

She’s getting a huge kick out.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  14:41

Yeah would you bring her on? I don’t believe you have correct?

 

Kara Swisher  14:45

I think that would be, I’m waiting for that one. Honestly.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  14:47

You are.

 

Kara Swisher  14:48

I’m, that’s something I’m I’m considering. I suppose

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  14:51

I think you have to.

 

Kara Swisher  14:52

I’ve had my son and my brother on and stuff like, they’ve been, well, some of the most popular ones, which is interesting, really, especially my son. Yeah, he’s very wise for a young person, but I would love to hear your mom and her thoughts on it. I think it would be really good, because she’s a character in your podcast. I mean, podcasts are about characters. In any case, we got a question this week from someone who’s a fan of your podcast, psychotherapist Esther Perel, host of the podcast, where should I begin? I don’t know if you listen to it, it’s fantastic, and you’ll hear her question for you.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  15:25

Oh God.

 

Kara Swisher  15:26

It’s okay.

 

Esther Perel  15:27

Hello. Julie Louis Dreyfus, so much of your work on the podcast is about starting conversation that the world needs to listen in on. And that really resonates with me, how do you think about the role of community, of the collective in working through some of the very issues that you are processing on the show the importance of the collective in addressing aging or loss, or Love or grief, hope, desire? What is the relationship between the I and thou in the process, in the processing of such complicated existential wonders? Thank you.

 

Kara Swisher  16:12

She’s a therapist. She’s a well known therapist. I know, I know, and she’s a fantastic.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  16:17

Kara, you answer it.

 

Kara Swisher  16:22

Are you not smart enough?

 

Kara Swisher  16:24

I’m a dumb.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  16:24

No, you are not. You said that.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  16:26

I couldn’t understand. You’re not a dumbass. Stop, no, I’m making a joke. I know I’m not a dumbass, but Well, I mean to be honest with you, I think she answered the question. In her question, she was talking about community and the collective, the we in terms of dealing with issues and addressing loss and love and so on and so forth. And the answer is yes, the collective is the way out. I think actually, her question speaks to something that’s come out of these conversations, actually, particularly with my mother, which is the key is connect. Connect, connect. I don’t mean plug your computer in. I mean connect with human beings. There’s everything to be said for community and everything not to be said about isolation, and we’re in a land of isolation now which is paralyzing and toxic. So I think there’s nothing but value in finding ways to take action, to connect with other people in every sense.

 

Kara Swisher  17:28

I think people are desperate for it, desperate, desperate for it. And agreement, one of the reasons I always say one of my podcasts pivot works is because we’re I’m connecting with a man who I disagree with in a way that’s kind and we disagree a lot, and people are desperate for that. They’re desperate.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  17:45

They’re desperate for a kind conversation. You know, it’s funny. I remember once, this is neither here nor there, but it was a while back, and I was by myself. It was a weekend where I sort of didn’t have plans, and my husband wasn’t there, and I was sort of alone. And I remember that I went to the grocery store, and I found myself having an in depth conversation with the checkout woman at the register, and I started asking her questions about her life, and I realized what afterwards, what was happening, which was it? Was, it was, I was lonely and I was became very, very interested in her life. Why wouldn’t I be interested? Everybody has an interesting life, but, but I remember noting that like, oh, that’s interesting. I really sought a human being out.

 

Kara Swisher  18:39

No, it’s an important story. Years ago. You know what your your podcast reminds me of Spalding Gray did a show at the Kennedy Center many years ago where he brought people from the audience and just interviewed them, just randomly. And it was brilliant, because he said everyone’s story is interesting if you just talk to them. And it was, you know, he had his own troubles, as you know, how this life ended, but it was the most riveting conversations I’ve ever seen because, and that’s what you’re talking about here.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  19:09

And that’s what I’m talking about, and by the way, that’s what something my mother does, and to sometimes great frustration to Me and my sisters, because she’ll talk to anybody and ask them everything, and as a result, she’s a vibrant human being. But it does mean it takes a while to get out of any situation.

 

Kara Swisher  19:36

We’ll be back in a minute.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  19:43

So speaking of connection, let’s talk about Tuesday, dealing with existentialism and grief. Just to let people know, this is not a comedy, but it is funny in many ways, it’s actually very funny. Giant Julie Louise Dreyfus is my favorite. Julie Louise, you handle your tallness really well, but also and smallness. You didn’t like smallness much, but the you going through the grass is a tiny thing was I felt the borrowers all over again anyway. But it’s about death, literally, in the form of a talking Macaw. I believe that’s the bird. I have not seen a movie like this in I think for some reason the John Malkovich movie was the last one. It reminded me of of the feelings I had during it. It’s obviously a fantasy. It’s surreal in many ways. It feels, you know, like a Garcia Marquez book or something like that. Can you talk a little bit what attracted you and the reason for taking it on.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  24:03

So I the script was sent to me by a 24 and I, you know, it was crazy bananas, this script, but the themes of the of the film, the parent, child, Bond, grief, loss, death, dying, acceptance, denial, all of these themes are incredibly interesting to me as a human being. And so then I met with Dinah Bucha, who is the writer director, Croatian woman. This is her first feature film, and I met with her just to get a sense of of course of who she was and what her intentions were, and if I felt comfortable in her hands, and I came away feeling very trusting of her, and signed up. God, you know, she she. Is quite an artist. You, I’m sure, I know you’ll be hearing more from her as a filmmaker. And the animation, of course, was, it was paramount that the animation within the film was expert of the bird, yes, but I do want to say that within the film, as you say, there’s this sort of monster, like bird, Macaw, thing that is representing death and and a lot of people think that was just CGI. In fact, it was not. It was played by an extraordinary actor, a Rinzai Ken a he was a cast member on with us. And then what the animators did was they used his performance and animated over him. And so I always like to give a shout out to a rinse, because you’re not actually necessarily seeing him, but you actually are very much seeing.

 

Kara Swisher  25:50

Yeah, it’s interesting. It’s like, in Lord of the Rings, because he was there in that conversation you had at the table, I was like, the actor is sitting there with you.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  25:58

Correct.

 

Kara Swisher  25:59

That’s what I thought. That’s what I figured amazing, amazing performance, by the way, and disturbing at the same time, but also very funny, but very funny bird. But in the movie, a mother and daughter basically having a conversation with death and about death together. You’ve been through a cancer treatment. You’re a parent. I’ve had a stroke. My dad died. Talk about what you draw to understand about the depths of grief, because in this case, you’re dealing with someone else’s death or impending death.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  26:29

Well, I’ve also lost people close to me. I’ve lost my dad, I lost my sister, and so, yeah, I’m certainly keenly aware of our mortal lives. So I brought all of that with me to this. But I think the first thing that really appealed to me about this was the ferocity of the parent child bond, which it’s undeniable and it’s enormous, and so I enjoyed that aspect of the script, the lengths that a mother would go to to keep death away. And it really explores that, including, by the way, denial, denial of a reality.

 

Kara Swisher  27:15

Yes, not being there, yes, not being there. I mean, you know, it’s interesting. When I heard the description of it. I almost didn’t want to watch it, because I have kids. And the idea of I just, I know, you know what I mean? It’s one of those things that I was thinking the other day, right before I watched it. I’m like, totally, I have so many kids, I’ve upped my chances of being upset. You know what I mean? Like, I don’t know why it popped into my brain, but one of the things grief of knowing you’re going to lose someone. Now we know that with older people, but it’s harder. Your character, Zora, tries to avoid her daughter selling off bits and pieces of their beautiful things. And then you go to the other extreme, which is barbecuing and trying to eat death, literally being forced by death to confront it. Can you talk a little bit about that? Little more about the parent child, von, because your characters at the scent of center of that and your child is kind of the Zora is really the child in the relationship in a weird way.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  28:12

Right, that’s what is the the dysfunction, certainly at the start of the film, is zora’s daughter, whose name is Tuesday, is really parenting her mother and the journey? Well, there are many journeys within the film, but one of the biggest journeys, I think, is the flip so that by the end of the film, Zora comes to realize how she must parent her child in a functional way, which includes accepting the realities of her situation.

 

Kara Swisher  28:49

One of the things is striking is not knowing the pain her daughter is in, not being aware of the pain until she can hear her as having eaten dead. So she has this hearing.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  28:59

Yeah, she well, she has a I mean, it’s very symbolic. It’s very metaphorical. It’s because of the transformation that happens. I we’re talking about this in such a way. I hope it’s clear to people listening, because what Zora does is she fights death in an effort to keep death away, and then ultimately, sort of becomes death.

 

Kara Swisher  29:22

She is. She learns by doing death.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  29:24

She learns by doing and and then realizes that as death, she has to come to her daughter. Yeah, oh, my god. I can’t stand even saying it. I get I It still upsets me. I can’t stand

 

Kara Swisher  29:38

Yeah, it’s like a death doula in a weird way.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  29:42

Yes, which, of course, there is, which I think is remarkable. And, God, I think about that a lot when I talked with Isabel Allende, and we’re talking about this thing called death, and I was remarking when, because I had the. Yeah, actually, the gift of being able to be with my dad when he passed away, and I was very much struck by how that waiting and being with him was not dissimilar from waiting for some child to be born, for a birth, and the the similarity in those transitions are similar. And I’m not suggesting that one is as joyful as the other, but they are from a life living point of view. I was very and she was talking about that as well.

 

Kara Swisher  30:36

Well, what’s interesting about it is she becomes joyful when she’s doing death right? That night, of of putting people at rest, the people screaming in the background, and you don’t get to see a lot of it, except for a couple of the scenes, was very funny, even though it wasn’t funny. And a bird, bang, bang, bang. I was in hysterics with that. I was like, oh, that’s what would happen if death went away death took a holiday, right? Speaking of which, but you she, she gets joyful by doing death. Would you like to have that power? Would you ever fuck?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  31:11

No, are you kidding me, really? I kind of would you would Carol?

 

Kara Swisher  31:16

Yeah, because it’s kind. It’s a kindness that maca isn’t cruel, that Macaw is kind.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  31:23

That’s too much for me to bear. Yeah, the pain. I can’t I can’t handle it. I pass on that job opportunity in real life.

 

Kara Swisher  31:29

All right, okay, all right. Well, you can do the life part. You can do the it’s they’re linked together. So one of the things I have just one more question about the movie, and then I want to talk a little bit about your longer career, but you finished this movie three years ago. As I said, looking back, Does, does the idea of Come on? Woman, still resonate?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  31:47

Well, actually, it’s get up woman.

 

Kara Swisher  31:50

Get up woman, excuse me, get up woman sorry.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  31:52

And yes, it’s a it’s almost a mantra. I think it works. It certainly applies to my life. What’s the alternative? You’ve got to get up. You’ve got to keep I mean, we have a limited amount of time. Let’s go. Let’s get it done.

 

Kara Swisher  32:10

We’ll be back in a minute.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  32:15

I want to talk a little bit about your career in comedy. I. You made a joke at the Mark Twain award in 2018 about being a dramatic actress. That was part of the bit. Damn you. Peter Hall, what a mistake. But it would be hard not to finish up with the legacy as a comedic actress. We met at the award show where you won the Webby podcast of the year for wiser than me. But in your long television career, you’ve won 11 Emmys. You’re one of the few actors who has played not one but three iconic television characters, Elaine Bennis, Christine Campbell and vice president, Selena Meyer. How do you look at each character now? And to me, what this is just me, and you could have a different take. I’m just an audience member. They have a comment as a need to be in the boys club. Am I getting that wrong? And all kidding aside, would have been easier to be Portia.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  35:44

Well, I mean, all of the characters, the thread between them all is profound frustration. I think is and, of course, aren’t you frustrated some? I mean, as a woman, isn’t that? You know, it’s like I frustration is kind of a for me, a driver, and it certainly is with all of these women. And I would say, you know, Selena Meyer in the most obvious and and sort of ultimate of ways, yeah, but you know that in that Mark Twain speech, and I was talking about being a dramatic actress, and you know the truth is, is that I really do enjoy doing drama, and it’s actually why I took on this role, because I wanted to exercise that muscle again and have an opportunity to show that this is in my wheelhouse. So that joke about the quality of mercy is not strange. Was actually born out of a true place. Truth be told.

 

Kara Swisher  36:48

I’m going to, I’m not going to wade you into the Seinfeld controversy, because I think that’s not has nothing to do with you. But I’d love to know what you think is funny. Now, everyone seems to have a theory, obviously, but what do you think is funny? Right at this moment we’re in?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  37:08

That question’s funny.

 

Kara Swisher  37:11

I think there’s a lot of talk about how comics can’t be funny. Now I think that’s not true. I think comics are funnier.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  37:16

No, that’s bullshit.

 

Kara Swisher  37:17

I think that’s bullshit physical comedy and intellectual company and political comedy, I think, has never been more interesting, because there’s so much to do.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  37:25

Well, it’s a, yes, it’s a ripe time. You know comedy is risky and it can be offensive, but that’s what makes it so enjoyable, not that it’s offensive, but that it’s risky it’s truth. It can be very truth telling and with risk, I just I don’t buy the conceit. I personally don’t buy the conceit that this is a impossible time to be funny. Maybe some people aren’t laughing at your jokes, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be made yeah.

 

Kara Swisher  37:58

So one of the things Elaine is known, for example, with the physical moves, although the dry retorts or the shoves or the dance, but also the retorts. But and Selena, to me, is all feral facial expressions and wicked verbal cuts. Is it harder to do physical or intellectual comedy?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  38:17

They’re of equal, uh, strain, the physical comedy sometimes, in my experience, is stuff that I’ve often found in rehearsal, so it takes a little exploring to find it. But I wouldn’t say that it’s hard. I just, I would say it’s as much fun? Yeah, there’s nothing more exciting than having really good material and then elevating it if you can, and if you do it physically, it’s just delish.

 

Kara Swisher  38:50

Absolutely a couple more questions, Seinfeld in particular, for example, which I think you’ll probably be best known for, even though I preferred deep I know it sounds I love Seinfeld too, but it’s having this renaissance. On Netflix, a lot of young people are watching the show. My son was like, Have you heard of Seinfeld? I’m like, yeah. Why do you think it holds up and that that younger generations are connecting?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  39:14

Well, I don’t know why they’re that it’s having this resurgence. I’m delighted that it is, I am it holds up because it’s.

 

Kara Swisher  39:23

The human condition.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  39:24

It’s undeniably funny. It wasn’t fad ish. It speaks to really universal truths and period. It’s just like a great show, and it’ll always be a great show.

 

Kara Swisher  39:40

Is there a show, if you had to introduce someone to it, that you would show them first? There’s obviously the famous ones. Not that there’s anything wrong with that master of your own domain. Is there any show you would say, look at this one.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  39:54

Well, I don’t know. Probably something from seasons four or five. Five when we started to really get our stride. It’s interesting to watch the show, because not that I do. I don’t really watch the show. But when it first started, it was slow by comparison, and the pace started to pick up and it became more it just became snappier as it went along. Maybe the soup Nazi. The soup Nazi was a good one.

 

Kara Swisher  40:23

I think the bris was one of my favorites. The bris.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  40:26

Oh, really? That’s the Delaware thing.

 

Kara Swisher  40:29

I don’t there’s so many the subway episode, but, but one of the things that’s interesting is Netflix really paid more than $500 million for the Seinfeld rights for five years. The contract started in 2021 Did you see any of that money?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  40:43

Not one cent.

 

Kara Swisher  40:44

Okay. How do you feel about that?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  40:47

Fantastic.

 

Kara Swisher  40:55

I would love you to go on about that. Alana Glaser, who was pretty critical about streaming services. What’s your take? You’re going into AI next for free, just so you know. But go ahead.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  41:08

Good because I know nothing about it. Um, my look, I don’t, I, here’s my take on all of this. I’m, I’m worried about the corporatization of arts. And I, I’m like, for example, this movie I made Tuesdays with a 24 one of the very few, if not the last remaining independent studio making unusual films. I’m worried about that because it’s now a lot of executives calling, and there have always been these executives, but there have. They haven’t been on top of each other like a layer cake, and I’m very worried about what that represents for good art outside the box, because, you know, we’re not making widgets here. Good ideas are often, well, first of all, they’re hard to find, and they, I can tell you one thing, they’re not found by a corporation. Good artful ideas, in my view.

 

Kara Swisher  42:15

Yeah, even though you’re a network note, according to Jerry Seinfeld, that was very funny. Yeah, that was, that was fantastic. But you in 2020 you signed an overall deal with Apple TV, plus to develop new products as executive producer and actor, you’ve been producer on many of your shows. What does that mean exactly? And how does the deal differ from the ones you’ve cut over the past three decades?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  42:38

Well, first of all, I really like to I didn’t produce Tuesday, for example, but I do very much like to produce the work that I do, because it just gives me more control over the product. And I I’ve been doing this now long enough so that I think I have experience that’s useful as a producer, and so that’s important to me. I am. No. I no longer have this deal at Apple. It ran out. It was finished. And, you know, to be honest with I mean, they’re all perfectly nice, but nothing came out of it, and that was too bad, but it just didn’t, which is often the case with the deals like.

 

Kara Swisher  43:16

Yes indeed. So what do you do now? Do you go bring your projects, your production company.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  43:22

I don’t, you don’t even know. I don’t want, I don’t want the headache of that right now. I just don’t, I’d rather do things on a case by case basis. I mean, I’m guessing, you know, probably yes, I could have a production company. I could have, I could be developing material for myself or other people, that’s not something, ultimately, that excites me. It’s too much. I don’t need a huge universe like that. I’m not Oprah. You’re not going to retherspoon it. I’m not going to, and this is not my way to disparage them in any, in any, in any way. I’m just saying that’s not who I am. I approach projects very specifically, and that’s how I’m gonna that’s how I roll, that’s how I.

 

Kara Swisher  44:07

May ask what you’re doing next?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  44:10

I don’t know.

 

Kara Swisher  44:11

Well, you’ve got a success.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  44:12

I just finished, I just finished a Marvel movie.

 

Kara Swisher  44:14

Yeah, why you’re in the Marvel movies? You you turn into a villain from what I introduced, from what he tells.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  44:20

Well, I’m not allowed to say Kara, because, as you know, let me explain to you something the Marvel Universe. If you’re in it, you have to sign an NDA every three and a half minutes. And so if I say anything to you right now, a Marvel executive will come and shoot me in the head as I’m speaking to you, and possibly shoot you.

 

Kara Swisher  44:42

He can try.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  44:44

Yeah, you’ll take him on good.

 

Kara Swisher  44:45

I’ll take him on good.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  44:46

Are you kidding? But anyway, I did wrap thunderbolts, and so that is that I have coming out next year. But in terms of like, what am I shooting next? I’m not sure.  I don’t know.

 

Kara Swisher  44:57

So let me ask just two more, three more questions. Very quick politics. You’re a moderator at the 2020, Democratic Convention. Very good jokes that, some of which, apparently they cut. You can comment on that if you’d like.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  45:11

It was broadcast news to the 10th power doing that thing. I am here to tell you, it was cuckoo bananas. It was COVID, the DNC, talking to comedy writers, talking to, I mean, it was nuts, fun. I ultimately, I was delighted to have done it, although terrible.

 

Kara Swisher  45:32

So what are you doing this? This go round, there’s.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  45:34

A campaign, you know, yeah.

 

Kara Swisher  45:36

I don’t know if you know that there’s a campaign happening, presidential.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  45:40

Oh, really. And who’s running, Kara?

 

Kara Swisher  45:42

It’s a rerun, it’s.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  45:45

Oh, I say that, no, not like this.

 

Kara Swisher  45:48

Not like this. I know it could be worse.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  45:52

I don’t know.

 

Kara Swisher  45:53

Could it be worse? Yes, I just interviewed Alexandria Ocasio Cortez last week, and she was like, I’ll be arrested. Like, as if it was like Tuesday, speaking of Tuesday, yeah, and she quite meant it. But are you, are you want to get involved politics?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  46:08

I am involved, yeah. I mean, at this point, not specifically with the convention, but I’m involved politically. I do a lot of work in down ballot races, in small races, and state legislatures and so on. And I’m continuing to do that, really with a vengeance, as we sound ballot is the thing now it is. It’s our it’s a lifeline, absolutely, saving democracy, absolutely.

 

Kara Swisher  46:34

So I want to, I have two more questions at the end. I want to go back to Tuesday and wiser in the end of the film, there’s a question of whether Heaven or God or the afterlife exists or not, and the bird says something amazing,

 

Recording  46:45

But there is an afterlife. The Echo you leave, the legacy your memory. This Tuesday, soft life, how you live. It is how she lives.

 

Kara Swisher  47:13

What do you think of that? What’s your Echo? Besides an Oscar, obviously, And the Oscar goes to.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  47:19

I don’t my echo? Well, I’m going to say something very Pollyanna ish. My echo is my my two boys and them being good human beings and good citizens, if they are, then I’ve my echo is good and pure. That’s, that’s my answer, period. This other crap doesn’t matter.

 

Kara Swisher  47:40

Yeah, I just gave that answer to someone. They were surprised.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  47:43

I was like, that’s the only thing. Why would you be surprised? It’s so fundamental. I know. I was like, just them. That’s it. That’s just them. Of course, none of this other stuff is meaningful, yeah, in the same way, interesting.

 

Kara Swisher  47:54

But not not meaningful. You’re right. The last question, you start every episode of your podcast with a story about your life. I think you should continue to do that. I know you’re private, but it’s I think it resonates with people. It resonates with me certainly. Are you writing a memoir?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  48:08

No, I’m not.

 

Kara Swisher  48:10

If you did, what would the title be?

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  48:12

The title would be, what should the title be? Question mark, that’s the title.

 

Kara Swisher  48:16

Okay, all right, I think you should. I just pulled that out of my I like it anyway. Thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it, and I do hope you do win the Oscar. Might be nice. So nice. Be nice.

 

Julia Louis-Dreyfus  48:32

I’m I’m so happy to be on this to talk with you, because I I listen to your podcasts frequently, and so to to actually have this conversation in depth. Conversation with you has been really a delight for me. So thanks a lot. I appreciate it.

 

Kara Swisher  48:45

Thank you so much.

 

CREDITS  48:48

On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Russell Rosalie, Kitterle Yocum, Jolie Myers, and Megan Cunney. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Andrea Lopez-Cruzado, and Kate Furby. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda. The theme music is by Trackademicks. If you’re already following the show, go ahead and do the Elaine Bennis dance, if not, get up woman and man. Go wherever you listen podcast. Search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox media Podcast Network, and us, we’ll be back on Thursday with more.