
Producing Bones (with Barry Josephson)
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Prepare for a thorough examination of how Bones came to be! In this episode we sit down with Executive Producer Barry Josephson as he shares the inside scoop on when he first encountered Kathy Reichs’s thrilling novels (spoiler alert: he knew it was gold), the early days of production, and the unforgettable first chemistry read between Emily and David Boreanaz. We’ll also hear some surprising stories about Barry’s career, including his time as Whoopi Goldberg’s roommate! Emily and Carla discover behind-the-scenes secrets they never knew, and learn more about why we should all be eternally grateful to this man. No Barry, No Bones! So listen up!
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Transcript
SPEAKERS
Carla Gallo, Emily Deschanel, Barry Josephson
Emily Deschanel 01:00
Hi, I’m Emily Deschanel.
Carla Gallo 01:53
And I’m Carla Gallo.
Emily Deschanel 01:54
And this is Boneheads.
Emily Deschanel 02:03
Hi.
Carla Gallo 02:07
Hello.
Emily Deschanel 02:08
Should I say that we’re remote today? We’re usually in the same place.
Carla Gallo 02:17
We are.
Emily Deschanel 02:18
But at this moment for this introduction, we are.
Carla Gallo 02:22
I can say why.
Emily Deschanel 02:24
Oh, okay.
Carla Gallo 02:25
I have really important school presentation that I thought that it wasn’t important and was not planning to attend. ThenI was informed by my daughter that it is actually very important that I attend. What it is? It is a indigenous tribe artifact museum in her classroom. Now, here’s what’s interesting about it.
Carla Gallo 02:52
That’s what I want to talk about. Here’s why I guess I was like, “I don’t think I need to go to this”. The artifacts are made by them. I get it, I guess these are reproductions, one might say.
Emily Deschanel 02:52
Oh, it’s a presentation of artifacts. They have artifacts in their classroom?
Emily Deschanel 03:13
Right.
Carla Gallo 03:14
But I was like, “They’re not really artifacts”. I watched my daughter who lives in Los Angeles, make the bowl. I didn’t really take it seriously.
Emily Deschanel 03:27
Yeah, this wasn’t authentic. But, a lot of times in museums (natural history museums), the dinosaur bones aren’t realized.
Carla Gallo 03:38
What are you talking about?
Emily Deschanel 03:39
The casts of them.
Carla Gallo 03:41
I didn’t know that.
Emily Deschanel 03:42
Yeah, don’t quote me on that.
Carla Gallo 03:47
If I were gonna quote anybody, I would quote you. But that’s why I bring it up, because I hadn’t actually made the connection that this is bones related, right here. These are logical.
Emily Deschanel 03:59
This is anthropological for sure. I want you to go and then report back before back-cast next week. I’m curious, do you love when you get mixed messages from the kids about what’s important, or you’re thinking it’s not important?
Carla Gallo 04:14
Yeah.
Emily Deschanel 04:16
I’ve had kids, they have musical performances where they can just perform a musical thing if they want to. A lot of times, my kids have not wanted to participate in those things. Yet sometimes, one of my sons will want me to go andwatch the performance. Sometimes I’ll watch it, but sometimes I have other things to do. My child is not performing at all.
Carla Gallo 04:38
Oh, no.
Emily Deschanel 04:39
But, he wanted me there to watch his friends which is really sweet, very sweet.
Carla Gallo 04:44
No, I mean I get it because that’s also probably other parents are there. But I’d be like, “I will not be attending that event. If you are not featured, I will not be there”. Part of me is like, “Why do I have to go?” And part of me is like, “Oh, this will be real cute”.
Emily Deschanel 05:06
It will be cute. But, they’re learning and if they’re making the things, they’re probably learning a lot while they’re making that.
Carla Gallo 05:12
I hope so because let me tell you something, I didn’t see my daughter learning very much.
Emily Deschanel 05:18
Well, should we jump into this episode to talk about it? This is it.
Carla Gallo 05:22
This is good one.
Emily Deschanel 05:23
This is really exciting. Barry Josephson is our guest today. We would not have the show Bones without him. He was the executive producer of bones, and he was involved since day one, before I was involved, before Hart Hanson who created the show was involved. In fact, it was Barry who first purchased the rights to Kathy Reich’s story on which Brennan is based, and to one book of the series of Kathy Reich’s book series. He started developing the show back in 2004 and the rest is television history.
Carla Gallo 06:02
Yeah, that’s right. There would be no Bones without Barry Josephson. Pretty incredible story, actually. But, we’re gonna hear all about his beginning. He start working on the music side of film and TV for a bit before he began working in talent management. He was also an executive at Columbia Pictures, and then moved into producing, helping to make some truly iconic movies and shows.
Emily Deschanel 06:29
We’ll talk about all that in our interview. I can’t say enough about how Barry shaped the show and we have so many memories together, which we’ll of course get into. We recorded this interview a little while ago, when Barry was kind enough to come by and chat with us, and we’re so excited to share it with you today. So, here is our conversation with Bones executive producer, Barry Josephson.
Emily Deschanel 06:55
We’re so excited to have you here, Barry.
Barry Josephson 06:57
Thank you.
Emily Deschanel 06:57
Without you, Bones would not exist.
Barry Josephson 07:00
I know.
Emily Deschanel 07:01
You are the key to bringing all of the elements together, and so important for us to talk to about Bones. So, thanks for being here and taking the time and putting your phone away in a different room.
Barry Josephson 07:16
Sorry, I requested makeup for a podcast. That’s very vain. I had to have that.
Emily Deschanel 07:21
But, you look fantastic.
Barry Josephson 07:22
Thank you. You know, 30 is a tough year.
Emily Deschanel 07:27
The feathers and the glitter maybe a little much but, it’s great.
Barry Josephson 07:32
Everybody should wear a boa for podcasts, that’s what I’m thinking.
Emily Deschanel 07:35
We’ll have to take a picture so everyone can see what we’re talking about. But, I don’t know if my camera works today, just kidding. Here with Barry Josephson, the executive producer of Bones, he put it all together. I can’t wait to dive into how it all happened? How you got connected with Kathy? How you came upon the IP? How you connected with Hart? How you found me? All of that. But first, do you mind telling us how you got into the business?
Barry Josephson 08:06
Oh, sure. I was a manager for many years. I did post production music for a company called Laura Moore, which is a television company. Working at the television company was an executive named Edward Denault who was the producer, or executive producer of years of ‘The Twilight Zone’.
Emily Deschanel 08:23
The original Twilight Zone?
Barry Josephson 08:24
Yes, you’d see his credit on every episode, and I watched every marathon. I grew up on the show. I loved it. I idolized and worshiped him. I think of all the TV, Twilight Zone and Star Trek, captured my imagination. So working there, my only job was getting post-production music on shows and the occasional movie. There was only about two movies that they made. But, I would use that building as my university. So, I’d go sit in people’s offices and wait for people to kick meout, because I thought I can learn here. There was a woman named Pam Dixon, who was head of casting. Jeffrey Benson was an executive there. There were writers there, Keller […] and I would just sit in their offices. But, the one office I loved going to was Edward Denault, because I would watch how he would supervise all the shows Laura Moore was making. In my mind, I’m thinking, he had the experience of doing Twilight Zone. Now, he’s running all these shows as an exect, brilliant, and I learned a lot just being there. Often he would say, “Okay, I’m gonna have a confidential conversation now, I think you need to leave”. “Okay, for today I’m done. I’ll leave”. But any spare time I had, I just sat at the foot of Edward Denault and he was brilliant.
Emily Deschanel 09:44
Then you went into management after doing that?
Barry Josephson 09:45
Yes, I had. You don’t always early in your career. In your 20s and 30s, you don’t always get to choose exactly what you’re going to do, so you just take the opportunity that’s presented to you. And I had a great music knowledge.
Emily Deschanel 10:01
I was gonna say, I didn’t realize what a music guy you are. If you were picking the post-production music for different productions, you have to be into music.
Barry Josephson 10:10
Yes. And they didn’t ask me, “Can you read a card sheet?” And I said, “Yes, being a lousy guitar player” But, I tried my best and I figured out how to do that job. When I got hired, the person who I worked for was fired and they wanted to save money, so they just gave me that guy’s job.
Emily Deschanel 10:33
They wasn’t paying you probably what’s that guy.
Barry Josephson 10:35
Yeah, a fraction.
Barry Josephson 10:37
I learned and that was a great opportunity. I learned also that at that time, I really wanted to work more in music, and Ireally liked working with talent. In that job, there was a great show runner who created Falcon Crest in the Waltons. He said to me, “You should maybe manage talent. You’re so good”. And I thought, “Oh, that’s an opportunity. Maybe I coulddo that”. So I met with managers, and it was really fortunate. I got to work for a company that represented Dolly Partonand all these people. I started just signing talent.
Emily Deschanel 10:37
But, you learned.
Barry Josephson 10:43
Musical talents?
Barry Josephson 10:55
Musical talent.
Emily Deschanel 11:01
Because I know you did comedians.
Barry Josephson 11:12
Yes, and I segued into comedy which was a very fortunate move, because early on in my career, I represented Bobcat Goldthwait, Paul Rodriguez, Paula Abdul, The Pointer Sisters briefly, but the great find and the key relationship in my career was Whoopi Goldberg.
Emily Deschanel 11:31
I remember that you represented Whoopi Goldberg. I mean, those are all great people.
Carla Gallo 11:36
Yeah.
Barry Josephson 11:36
They were great.
Emily Deschanel 11:37
You found her and did she have any representation when she did that?
Barry Josephson 11:40
She did. She had an agent and his name was Irvin Arthur, and he came to the senior partner of the management company Sandy Gallin, I think have this wonderful talent and we went to see her, she was incredible. Nobody had ever seen before.
Emily Deschanel 11:53
Yeah.
Barry Josephson 11:54
Comedic routines, stories and all from her.
Emily Deschanel 11:58
She was a great actor too.
Barry Josephson 12:00
Yeah.
Emily Deschanel 12:00
Besides being just a very funny comedian and dynamic.
Barry Josephson 12:04
Making good choices as a manager, like who you choose to?
Carla Gallo 12:04
Yeah.
Barry Josephson 12:04
So managers, I think like to take credit for a lot of things, but honestly, it’s the talent. You just take your belt and you hitch to the person. If the person is really gifted, you have a good career and Whoopi was that.
Barry Josephson 12:10
Yeah.
Emily Deschanel 12:10
Obviously, you’re being strategic.
Emily Deschanel 12:14
I know you’re not trying to give yourself too much credit, but you have to make choices in those careers and that’s a bigpart of being a manager, finding opportunities and then making choices not to do certain opportunities that not be good for people’s careers.
Barry Josephson 12:28
That’s the ultimate choice.
Barry Josephson 12:44
But honestly, I like to think I was a very good manager. I also know that in those early years, she was basically discovered by Mike Nichols and Quincy Jones. Mike Nichols put her on Broadway. Quincy Jones put her into the color purple. Yes, we negotiated some deals. But frankly, just watching her take off was remarkable and this is all self generated. It was a remarkable experience in my life and then Whoopi said very funny thing. She said to me, I don’t want to live in L.A by myself, so I rented this house, you and I live here.
Emily Deschanel 13:25
Where was she living before that?
Barry Josephson 13:26
She was in the Bay Area, like in Berkeley.
Emily Deschanel 13:29
Okay, so this is like our first move to Hollywood?
Barry Josephson 13:32
Exactly.
Carla Gallo 13:33
Please tell me you moved in together.
Emily Deschanel 13:35
Yeah.
Barry Josephson 13:35
It was a house on Clark Drive and we actually moved in.
Carla Gallo 13:37
Amazing. That is some kind of […].
Barry Josephson 13:42
That was crazy. I’d say I was 30.
Emily Deschanel 13:46
Okay.
Carla Gallo 13:47
That’s fantastic. You must have stories.
Barry Josephson 13:50
Oh, we had so many stories that I can’t do on this podcast.
Carla Gallo 13:52
Yeah.
Barry Josephson 13:52
Maybe on another podcast. But I will say this, she would take me everywhere. So, I met so many people in Hollywood through Whoopi, and that’s what sort of put me across top. Then executive producing comedy specials was the way I got into the business, and I learned from that. Then the very fortunate thing was, when you do a recording on Broadway. It’s usually in a studio.
Barry Josephson 14:20
For musical songs?
Barry Josephson 14:21
Anything, spoken word, […], equity issues. So, everybody records the studio. I set up the studio to do her show.
Emily Deschanel 14:24
It was like the comedy special, the audio, and people used to listen to the […].
Barry Josephson 14:34
Correct.
Carla Gallo 14:35
Yeah, right.
Emily Deschanel 14:37
Totally […].
Carla Gallo 14:38
I actually forgot that myself […].
Barry Josephson 14:44
David Geffen signed her, she was on Geffen records.
Emily Deschanel 14:46
Wow.
Barry Josephson 14:47
So, the album sold incredibly welL. But, Mike was the EP of everything and I set up the evening, he came in and we’re in the middle of recording the first show you do, too. He looked at me and he said, “I’m off to dinner with Diane” […].
Barry Josephson 15:10
Yeah, Mike Nichols. He said, “You have this.” And I thought, “Wow, I do kind of but, where are you going?”.
Emily Deschanel 15:10
Wait, Mike Nichols?
Emily Deschanel 15:20
Yeah, why you leaving to have dinner?
Barry Josephson 15:23
So, we did both shows. The great thing, my first credit and this how I became a producer. I remember getting the liner notes for the album, to get Whoopi to approve them. I looked on the liner note, it said associate producer, Barry Josephson, and that’s what Mike did.
Carla Gallo 15:42
Oh, wow.
Barry Josephson 15:43
I had been a manager and then I looked at that, I remember staring at it and thinking, “Maybe that’s what I am”.
Emily Deschanel 15:50
Oh, yeah.
Barry Josephson 15:51
“Maybe I’m a producer”. Then producing started rolling my head and management started roll out of my head, and I became a producer, that’s the career that started right there.
Emily Deschanel 16:02
So interesting and so Mike Nichols. Without credit, you saw the possibility and kind of recognized that that was something you’re good at. Well, let’s get into Bones?
Emily Deschanel 16:13
Okay […]. It all starts with Barry and that’s why you’re very important guest to have.
Barry Josephson 16:13
Sure.
Barry Josephson 16:25
I was out of the deal at Disney and Tom Rothman was really kind and brought me to Fox as a producer. I think the intention was just to produce films. But at the time, Gail Berman was running television and Gail knew me, and Gail called me up one day and said, “You know, all your movies that you made at Columbia, so many great procedurals and so on, I’d like to have the opportunity of working with you. I said, “Okay”, she brought me on to a show. I worked on that show very diligently and then she said “What do you want to develop?”. Now, I had made a movie hide and seek with a writer, Ari Schlossberg with Robert De Niro and Dakota Fanning.
Emily Deschanel 17:06
Oh yeah, I remember that movie.
Barry Josephson 17:07
That writer went off to do television without me. I remember calling the agency saying, “Wait a second, this was a writerI helped develop. I made his first movie”. You didn’t even at least consider me for this and I was really upset. So, I called Sam Haskell, who at the time at William Morris, was running television and I said, “You know, this was really wrong”. Sam was so kind, he actually felt like there needed to be a make good. So, he had an agent (a young agent), Lauren Whitney, call me. Lauren sent me a lot of books and I was reading everything. I was reading a lot of material at the time looking for IP, for film and television. That’s when she said, “Look Barry, a lot of people have overlooked this book, but I think this woman is fabulous and I think you should read this character. She’s written Temperance Brennan. Also she, herself, is a forensic anthropologist”. So, I did read that book. I thought it was great. I didn’t really know much aboutforensic anthropology at the time, but I was fascinated by it. The most important thing was she gave me a tape, and it was a VHS tape of a sort of new segment about Cathy and the work that she did at McGill, and the work she did in North Carolina. I looked at this video, and I thought this is a really interesting character. So when I called Kathy, she would tell me some fabulous stories. One of the stories that I loved was when she would go out with her staff, and they’dgo out to work, and they’d sit in a restaurant, so they’d go to a pizza joint, and they would talk about all of the UK stuff that they did. She told me that as they would get into their conversations, she would watch people pick up and move further and further away from them. People had to get a table as far away from their table as possible, because they’re talking about bones, guts, veins and […].
Emily Deschanel 18:56
Which you like is wrong foods. I mean, if you kind of incorporated that.
Barry Josephson 19:00
Exactly.
Emily Deschanel 19:00
Where they take out the picture and then Heidi comes out and he’s like, “Oh, Mike, what are you guys doing this is a restaurant?
Barry Josephson 19:07
Exactly and that’s where that comes from. So for me, after talking to Kathy, I realized this could be wonderful. I had worked with a police advisor, Mike Grasso for years. And Mike, I actually asked him, “When these people come to work, with police, FBI? How does that work? What’s the relationship like? He was the first one who used the expression squints.
Emily Deschanel 19:35
I did’nt know it came from Mike.
Barry Josephson 19:37
Yeah, because he would say, “You know, these guys come and they’re squinting at things, they’re looking and examiningit in a very different way than we could. That’s when you know that the squints are on the case”. And they’re figuring things out and so that’s where that sort of came from.
Emily Deschanel 19:57
I knew at some point that Mike Grasso worked on the show.
Barry Josephson 20:05
He’s police advisor from day one.
Emily Deschanel 20:07
Yeah.
Barry Josephson 20:07
He would talk to Hart and he would also talk to the staff, he would bring people at the beginning of every season to talkabout, What procedural stories? What is the FBI doing? What are marshals do? What are they investigating? What’s thecurrent science? And he would be sort of the lead of that, he was a key essential part also to us thinking about, we had a big debate with the network and the studio. Who is she going to work with? Is she going to work with several people? Is she going to bring the case the FBI to local police? How are we going to do that? Or can we create a character? And this is, largely a lot of work that Hart did. What can we do to make it sort of more dependable? So, it feels like a series.
Emily Deschanel 20:56
Right.
Barry Josephson 20:57
That’s when the character of her working dependably with one FBI agent came up, and that was part of our early development. When I first sat down with the book, and I had written out a couple of maybe four or five legal pages of what I thought the show might be. I met with lots of writers, 20th was very kind to me about like, “Okay, try this writer, meet with this person”.
Emily Deschanel 21:22
20th is the studio?
Barry Josephson 21:23
Studio, yeah. I met with a lot of people but it really seemed like Hart was underneath it. He had worked on proceduralsbefore. He really understood it and he understood that there needed to be a heart and soul to all the characters, which Ireally loved.
Emily Deschanel 21:36
Yes.
Barry Josephson 21:37
I, at the time, had been looking at what forensic artists do and that’s where basically Angela’s character played brilliantly by Michaela Conlin, came up, because it was like, “What can we do to sort of approach your character, temperance Brennan with some empathy, some consideration and some understanding. Also, could we create some art where we can visualize the work? So that was a part of it too, because I’m really obsessed with visuals and Hart was really brilliant with character and visuals too. But, it was just a really good collaboration early on about how to make the pilot work.
Emily Deschanel 22:20
I mean, that’s an important piece to be able to visualize what happened to the person. Visualize what they look like when you don’t know what they look when they’re just bones. The angelatron and then later the angel leader, right?
Barry Josephson 22:32
Yeah.
Emily Deschanel 22:32
You know the angel leader and then the angelatron.
Barry Josephson 22:34
Right.
Emily Deschanel 22:35
I can’t remember which […].
Barry Josephson 22:36
Then for budget, it became screens but the visualization of all of this was so key. Even we had gone on a research trip myself, Hart and Greg because we wanted to use the Smithsonian as the science building. We tried to get their permission and they didn’t give us permission, but they did let us research and take a look. What was fascinating, we went to Smithsonian every year. They identify as so many people that are unknown dead. So, it could be from AmericanRevolution, from the Civil War, from Vietnam, from World War Two. They’re doing it all the time and basically, the bones that they have there are in these wooden boxes. Basically, they open up the boxes and they try to identify through DNA and so on. You know, “Who are these people?” Which just fascinated me. We were so enveloped by that, that became a big part of why we had the bones boxes.
Emily Deschanel 23:34
Right.
Barry Josephson 23:34
I said to Greg one day, I think we’re at a meal and I said, like, “It’s so great when you open up those boxes. But how do we do that visually?” And that’s when the idea of the backlit, translucent boxes came up.
Emily Deschanel 23:48
Yes, that’s such a big thing visually. You have what we call the bone room. It might be in other rooms, mostly just the bone room.
Barry Josephson 23:52
We expanded the bone room.
Emily Deschanel 23:59
Expanded the bone room.
Barry Josephson 24:01
Yes.
Emily Deschanel 24:01
I mean, the pilot too is just two walls when we shot in there.
Barry Josephson 24:05
Yes, and then we built it digitally afterwards. That’s why it has that other look, we added boxes digitally.
Emily Deschanel 24:13
On top or to the side.
Barry Josephson 24:15
Yes, and the reason why I wanted to do the underlit table was again.
Emily Deschanel 24:19
The underlit tables is so big, yeah.
Barry Josephson 24:22
But they don’t have that. So, basically it was usually metal tables and so on. So, if we were to go film what I had seen, it would not be very interesting. The thing that I said to Hart was what I’d love for the show is that anybody who watch the work that they do, I would want them to think like, “Okay, I want to do that. I want to consider that for a career”. You know, if a kid was going to college.
Carla Gallo 24:49
I know so many people.
Emily Deschanel 24:50
My favorite thing is to hear young girls who want to go into science or they’re adults now, but they wanted to go into science because of Bones […].
Barry Josephson 24:59
I had that happen too.
Carla Gallo 25:00
Yeah, a lot of people.
Barry Josephson 25:02
Well, at one point, even the network had mentioned and the studio, maybe we should just make her an agent of the FBI or something, and we’ll use an FBI slip.
Emily Deschanel 25:13
I started thinking like, talent agent. I’m like, “What an agent for the FBI?”.
Barry Josephson 25:18
Representing talent? How does that work? No, I really wanted to fight push back on that because I thought this is really important to do. It’s really important for her to be an outside agent.
Emily Deschanel 25:30
Yes, and can get their own world and then the FBI.
Barry Josephson 25:34
Yeah, and you notice in the pilot, she’s coming back from an anthropological dig.
Emily Deschanel 25:38
Yeah and Guatemala.
Barry Josephson 25:41
Right. That’s what we wanted her to be and then you would connect to the fact that the reason why she did this other work is that connection to the dead. She wanted to solve something that was unsolved for that person. So, that’s when it became that kind of procedural. It was very much like Hart forward, emotional character, who was quirky and interesting. Sometimes, could only be unlocked by sometimes Booths character, mostly by Michaela’s character early on. But you know, that was the whole point of it, she was trying to connect to something that was unsolved.
Emily Deschanel 26:31
We’ll be right back with more of our conversation with Barry Josephson.
Emily Deschanel 26:44
Carla?
Carla Gallo 26:45
Yeah.
Emily Deschanel 26:46
We’ve talked about this on the show before. So you know that when we were first filming Bones, I was really struggling with managing my stress. I was super overwhelmed with work. I could barely focus on scripts and my sleep was horrible.
Carla Gallo 27:00
I have definitely been there, maybe not to that extreme, but I have been there. And it does seem like when one part of your life feels stressful like work, then the rest just starts to follow, bad sleep, bad eating habits, and it’s just hard to stay on top of it all.
Emily Deschanel 27:13
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Barry Josephson 30:42
You know, when it comes to you, Emily, there was no perfect person for this character on except you Emily.
Carla Gallo 30:48
I can’t imagine you.
Emily Deschanel 30:50
I’ve said that before. I remember saying to Hart, like […].
Carla Gallo 30:56
No, you’re insane. Right away watching it the first time, because, you know I’ve never watched analyzing that. Then the first time I watched, I was like, “To have found her”, and even hearing you talk about that. Really, this show is literally built off this one woman. You know, you’re inspired by Kathy Reichs and you literally built the world around her to the point of, like, “Who is she playing off?” “Who is bringing things out of her?”. Literally, she is that core that you built out from there because some shows, obviously you’re starting with that two hander. I mean, it became a two hander but to have found her, and all the things that that character had to be, is not easy to fulfill all those things.
Barry Josephson 31:40
I agree and it was very hard to do. Vicki Rosenberg was our casting director and she had put together some brilliant actresses, we had some very good reads and we thought we had it. Honestly, I’ll give the credit to the studio at the timebecause there was a transition. Gail Berman was leaving and Peter Liguori was coming to run the network.
Emily Deschanel 32:02
Right.
Barry Josephson 32:02
It was a tough time to get a show going. Frankly, I always remember the studio saying to me, I thought like, “Oh, we’re making this” And I thought we are picked up, that’s what I thought. But, I did get a big bucket of cold water splash on me when they said, “No Barry, you understand you’re cast contingent”. I remember that being sort of like a vice on my head, squeezing, “You are cast contingent” And I said, “Well, aren’t we making this?” “You are cast contingent”. And I thought, “Oh my god, we’re cast contingent. I need to really nail getting this part”. And Gail Berman tweet for.
Emily Deschanel 32:21
Before David Boreanaz?
Barry Josephson 32:41
No. Gail Berman called me one day and she said.
Emily Deschanel 32:44
I think David Boreanaz would get it made?
Barry Josephson 32:46
Close. We had gotten very far down the line.
Emily Deschanel 32:49
I thought when I tested this was being made.
Barry Josephson 32:52
I don’t think so. Gail Berman said, “I’d love you to meet with David, I think David would be great. We met with David, and David was exceptional. His work prior was so amazing on Buffy and Angel”. And he sat down with me and Hart, hesaid, “You know what? I know I’m gonna be number two on the call sheet, but I know I can do something great for this show. I think this show is great”. He loved the script.
Emily Deschanel 33:15
Yeah.
Barry Josephson 33:16
And that was what he said day one at that first meeting, okay? And he told me all the things he wanted to do. He really wanted to transition from Buffy vampire, no horns in your head David, no horns. It was wonderful. It’s just so great. In terms of the casting process, David was there 24/7, I’ll read with this person. I’ll read with anybody, I just want this thing to go forward. He was very supportive.
Emily Deschanel 33:44
Right, but your cast.
Barry Josephson 33:46
“Your cast contingent”. So now, we don’t find anybody. We find hundreds of people and we don’t find anybody to play Brennan or Bones. So, I start calling around to friends because I’m panicked, because being cast contingent means that you may not make this pilot, okay? And I’m determined to make it. So I remember one night, I’m in my office and I start calling every studio executive I know about anybody that’s new in a movie. I called my friend Peter Kang, I called my friend Jason Reed. I called and called and Jason Reed actually called me back and he said, “You know, I’m looking at dailies of a Brock Hammer movie, and I think it was glory road. He said, “You know, this girl’s not in the movie a lot, but she’s really great. She’s unusual and interesting and so on”. And I said, “All right Jason, do you have a crush on her? Or isit that from watching to hillies, or is she really great?” And he said, “Both”. I said, “Okay, well, that’s intriguing. I have to go take a look”. So I called Vicky and I said, “Do you know Emily Deschanel?” And she was only tangentially about aware of you.
Barry Josephson 35:00
Yeah, I don’t think I had met her before as a casting director.
Emily Deschanel 35:01
No, but there you go.
Emily Deschanel 35:01
I mean, if you didn’t call your friends, that wouldn’t be there. I wouldn’t be there. I would think also cast contingentusually means you get like a big star.
Carla Gallo 35:17
Yeah.
Emily Deschanel 35:17
You got Julia Lee-Dreyfus or you got Julia Roberts, or any Julia.
Barry Josephson 35:22
Yeah.
Emily Deschanel 35:23
It has to be someone named Julia. That’s what cast contingent means.
Carla Gallo 35:27
Cast contingent meaning the right fit, the right character.
Emily Deschanel 35:31
A great way. I feel so “Wow, how important”.
Barry Josephson 35:34
It had to be the right fit. It had to be the right actor. At that time, look, this is still network TV days and premium cable and not streaming. This was not a day when you could just reach out to stars to do TV.
Emily Deschanel 35:50
No, nobody. Julia Roberts was not doing television.
Barry Josephson 35:54
So, that was not a thing. So we had to find Bones.
Carla Gallo 35:59
But, that’s amazing that you did that. That’s interesting to me too, that it wasn’t that you were calling casting directors, probably because she had already […]. I mean, saying like, “Is there anyone you work?” But I think it’s just creative that you said, you’re calling these directors, producers. Like, saying, “Is there anyone you’ve encountered that I should know about?”.
Emily Deschanel 36:21
It just sounds like about people watching Dailies like doing something, but I do know of people getting jobs in that way or executives taking note and be like “This person is always”, so you can always come back to them for their reaction, orwhatever in a scene that you know they’ll be paying attention to those actors and be like, “That person needs their own”.
Carla Gallo 36:43
It’s a dream as an actor
Emily Deschanel 36:45
Yeah.
Barry Josephson 36:46
Thank God Jason told me about you.
Emily Deschanel 36:48
I know I have him to thank.
Barry Josephson 36:50
Yeah, Dana Walden at the studio and Sharon Kleinberg always looking for new talent and they were really great at it. They had put up a lot of good people. So when we brought Emily to the studio, they were intrigued. So, there was a studio read and then there was the network read.
Emily Deschanel 37:07
I didn’t even go for the studio read, if you remember.
Barry Josephson 37:07
I do, we did it at once.
Emily Deschanel 37:08
We did it all at once. I somehow made it to network because I tested for something, I was going to test for something else. Stupidly, it was like one of my reps at the time, thought that this other thing had a better chance of going to series,and it was a small part. It grew up, moved to a guest spot role or a recurring role, but I never was like, “I want to be a lead”. So, it wasn’t like I was seeking out leads.
Barry Josephson 37:42
I met with me and Hart at my office, if you remember.
Emily Deschanel 37:45
Yes.
Barry Josephson 37:46
It was a deer in headlights, okay. It was like, “Here’s a script, here’s what we’re doing”. Hart had been run shows. He just like, “Let you know what it was gonna be”. And you were just sitting there going, I don’t know if I wanna do television.
Emily Deschanel 37:52
[…] I don’t remember what I said in what meeting, but we had a phone call. I remember asking a question, like, “How long can this go?” Because it’s about Bones. Like, “How engaging is that?” Like, the people are dead for a while. “Who’sgonna watch this?” “What is gonna last?” Jokes on me, cause that obviously lasted for 12 years, but you kind of don’t want to be on the show that flops, though.
Barry Josephson 38:29
Correct. When you left.
Emily Deschanel 38:30
You’re worried about.
Barry Josephson 38:31
I was definitely concerned, because you were so much more out than you were in. And the word indie came up quite a bit […]. You let me know that, you know. So, I like freedom of expression and wanting to work on different things. So,this felt very linear.
Emily Deschanel 38:53
Yes.
Barry Josephson 38:54
I remember trying to convince you this would be right.
Carla Gallo 38:57
So you knew pretty much at the point of that meeting, you’re feeling like, “Okay, we found her”.
Barry Josephson 39:06
Instinctually. Look, there’s things that you look at people’s work over the years and you think like, “How does somebody do this?”. I think from being a manager and an early studio executive, sometimes you just recognize talent and you recognize in the room. Sometimes, you recognize it from stage. When I was submitted the script for bad boys, I really wanted Martin Lawrence to be in it, and then I wanted Will Smith to be in it. This was something that came together from me and the producers. It was about working with talent the right packaging. Who’s right voice for this? When you were sitting there in the room and we were just talking to you, okay? I was seeing Bones, I was seeing Brennan and Hart saw it too. Then we very much got behind wanting to do it. So, I think I drove your representation crazy and so I wanted,”Has she read it yet?” Because there was a clock because “You were cast contingent”. But in those early days, you as a producer, I’m throwing everyone together. I’m making them into this awkward family. So, it cannot be The Addams Family. It’s just so awkward and odd and bizarre because it is, you’re throwing everybody together to sort of realize yourvision. And not everybody’s on that page and that’s why.
Emily Deschanel 40:24
I have a picture that Barry. I just have this picture here where we’re recording and it’s a picture of David Boreanaz, me, T. J. Thyne, Eric Millegan, Michaela Conlin, on the steps at the Natural History Museum. Barry took this picture and I think T.J. gave me, it framed in this frame.
Barry Josephson 40:45
Oh, that’s so good.
Emily Deschanel 40:46
Yeah, years ago. […]. That crazy group all came together and we worked so well together. I’ve always been so amazed at the casting of not just who the people and they’re so good for their parts, but how well we all got along and got work together. So I mean, obviously there’s bumps in the road and stuff like that. I’m not to say, I didn’t want to murder David Boreanaz some days.
Carla Gallo 41:11
But, we talked about that.
Emily Deschanel 41:12
He didn’t want to murder me. We talked about openly, but we also loved each other and worked really well together.
Emily Deschanel 41:17
Yeah, she’s so perfect. I mean, we get along so well and we’re such good friends. There’s so many friendships that happened, Carla and I being one. So many friendships were launched by that show.
Barry Josephson 41:17
So, let me say that I think there’s a lot of chemistry there because Hart, I, and Greg, as we read everybody, we all sort of like fell for certain people. I think Hart had in mind what Eric Millegan was going to be and what that character was going to be, and he was your friend. And when Michaela read, I just thought, “This is perfect” Because I kept thinking about this one scene where you confess stuff to her.
Barry Josephson 42:01
Absolutely.
Emily Deschanel 42:02
And it’s not almost the key, not every job.
Carla Gallo 42:03
No, mostly not.
Emily Deschanel 42:06
But now, I think, like, “Oh, you make best friends when you do a job”.
Carla Gallo 42:12
Sometimes it does, but you’re sort of thrown together. But, we were commenting on that. For me, it’s all more a little bit of an outside perspective because I hadn’t seen a lot of the episodes. So, as I’m watching and now I’m analyzing them ina different way. We had talked about the pilot and just how I said to you, I can’t believe in watching that. Watching it, that you all had probably only known each other two weeks or so, maybe. When you’re cast and you put maybe, I don’t know if you guys had anything shelled together in the pilot.
Barry Josephson 42:47
It’s not known. It’s more like they gelled and they really did. I don’t want to blow past this point, but when Emily and David did their chemistry read for studio network, it was a home run. I remember, literally, specifically, Peter Liguoriclapping and just standing up, he just loved it. He was not necessarily an advocate of this script or someone he had just come in.
Emily Deschanel 43:17
Yeah, he was not running the network until then basically, Berman from the beginning.
Barry Josephson 43:23
Right then. It was a remarkable day and it just felt like they had David and Emily had a real chemistry. She wanted no part of him.
Emily Deschanel 43:37
A repellent chemistry.
Barry Josephson 43:38
But, the reaction was fantastic. I mean, that’s when the pilot got greenlit.
Emily Deschanel 43:42
That’s amazing. Having tested for so, it’s always so nerve wracking. But you test enough that you’re just like, “Okay”, but you don’t know if it’s gonna work with David, if I’m gonna just, like, “Not do what I did or if it’s not gonna level up when I’m with him and really engage”, you don’t know, actors can be crazy. I don’t know if he’s gonna be like a wild card whenI go in there.
Carla Gallo 44:10
The test itself can sometimes undo you. I mean, that’s happened to me a lot of times. I had ones where I felt like, “Oh mygod, I nailed this and I’m the front runner”. Then I remember one in particular is just between me and one other person. And it was some like Jimmy Fallon produced show and he was on a zoom. I mean, this is kind of pre zoom, but he was on a computer. I absolutely bombed and I bombed it, I think I had been the front runner so that’s a whole other thing that you can’t control. Is this might be your personal.
Barry Josephson 44:41
Personal tone. I think the networks is thinking police procedural, okay? They don’t know what she is, they don’t get it. I don’t mean the network doesn’t get it intellectually, they just don’t know exactly what the tone is. But, Hart and I were in headspace of a procedural but also it happened one night. You look at the relationship, they just bond at the end. Butlike, she wants no part of them and there was a way Emily played it where she was even uncomfortable in a car with him.
Emily Deschanel 45:07
Just feeling uncomfortable in my repellent nature, really worked in my favor here.
Barry Josephson 45:26
And it was just the writing of that pilot, the crafting of it. Then as we went into series as well, we were also very much aware of like we had to keep that energy too. Everybody felt, I think, in series, that their character had to achieve a connection to Temperance Brennan, they had to connect with her. And so that was a sort of challenge for Hart, the staff, Stephen to figure that out with all the characters, whether it was the squinterns, for your character, Carla, for everybody.
Carla Gallo 46:02
A hundred percent. My whole motivation was, how do I. It was funny, because it would carry over to personally, where I’d kind of like, “Hi, Emily”, you’re like, “This is the star” And we are all rotating around […] but that very much my character was.
Emily Deschanel 47:27
I didn’t realize how much influence I had.
Carla Gallo 47:30
We’ll be back with Barry right after this.
Carla Gallo 48:05
I am curious about one thing about Emily and David or Booth and Brennan. Was the intention, if the show were to continue for them to end up together? Or was it really just a partnership? Will they? Won’t they? Or none of that. I’m curious.
Emily Deschanel 48:21
Yeah, I think some people have told me, “This is a show that I watched with my family”. And like, some people go for Booth and Brennan, and some people go for the disgusting bodies, and some people go for just solving the crime. That’sDavid and I would work together, that was always the focus. Our connection between each other, our chemistry, etc.
Barry Josephson 48:21
Sure, I wanted them to get together, but I was naive and it was Hart’s intelligence to realize this is something we’re not going to do for a while. This is a series and for it to work, it has to work the way it’s working in the pilot and how it’s working in season one, I think it was very smart to hold that back. We could tease it. We could lean into it here and there, but we’re not doing it. So, I was never sure. But the great thing that we learned, I think it was around season three,where I grabbed Hart and I went to Chris Carli, I was the head of marketing and I brought him the mash ups that were made online. This is early YouTube and what we’re trying to convince everybody to get picked up and so on, is that this relationship really works. It’s profound, okay? And the fans of the show would make mash ups of Booth and Brennan. It was always about creating more of a romance outside of it than was even inside of it. But, they could make it because that through line worked. And so they’d make these, and we showed them to network and then we started to cut promos that were very much playing into that. Then you realize the balance of this show is not about the crime of the week, although that’s essential to the concept. The balance of this show is Booth and Brennan and these other characters that interact with both of these characters and each other and everybody we added to the show, I think was a compliment to that but that was the core, that’s what I think took the show from one point to the next and increased in the ratings. People loved watching them, you could turn on an episode and this was told to me by a fan. It’s great if you watch things in in order, but you could watch a show from season nine or you could watch a show from season twoand you see the connection of these two people when it’s working, when it’s not working and why, and no matter what. That was something done by all the writers that worked on the show and contributed to Hart, Stephen, anybody who was running the show. It was essential that we always like, “Okay, Booth and Brennan. What are we doing? How are we making this work?” Because that was the core of that show, no matter what the crime was.
Carla Gallo 51:16
more often than not, when someone recognizes me from the show, they will then say, like, I’m on my fifth, you know, time through the whole series. And now that we start doing this podcast, I’ll now ask them, Can I ask you, like, why are you, why do you keep watching, you know, because it’s sort of what the.
Barry Josephson 51:33
Writers did with, you know, for you and TJ and like, how that relationship worked, and and other characters reactions to you and so on. And it was almost as if there’s this nucleus and you’re coming in, you know, yeah, and your character was so special. And so I loved her.
Emily Deschanel 51:51
I did so funny, so funny.
Carla Gallo 51:52
Daisy wick. Daisy wick and Lance.
Emily Deschanel 51:54
I mean, Lance, I was gonna say character. I mean, that was, such a people love that character.
Carla Gallo 52:01
Yes. People told, well, that’s the majority of what they say. You know, when to me, I was like, Oh, my God, you and Lance. And obviously when Lance died, but my chemistry with John Daly, who I had met when he was 18, because I was doing undeclared or soon after, unclared. And obviously he had been from Freaks and Geeks and so we but he never came to set. There were some people from Freaks and Geeks that would count me Martin’s. Come in, Martin star and obviously, you know, Jason Siegel. So I hadn’t met him, but I had obviously watched the entire series, kind of as I’m in the Apatow camp, whatever. And then I randomly met him at this, I think it was a restaurant called, like, Firefly or something in the valley. But I remember meeting him when he was a child, and he was really, like, you know, had all those energy and just absolutely adorable. And then I don’t know if I even saw him again, until I was working with him. And I mean, to be honest. I mean, I’ve said this before, like, I kind of had a crush on him. Like, I he’s 10 years younger than me, but I’m but I just was charmed, so charmed by him. So as an actor, obviously, that’s super helpful when you really are taken by the person and charmed by them. And so for me with John, the chemistry was really felt organic, because I was just so charmed by him.
Barry Josephson 53:12
Yeah, you guys were great together. And John, again, like services so brilliantly that, you know, Booth and Brennan, you know, and that was the starting point of that therapy.
Emily Deschanel 53:22
We did therapy. It was so funny.
Barry Josephson 53:26
Before he was our you know, psychologist working on cases.
Carla Gallo 53:31
I didn’t even know that you there.
Emily Deschanel 53:34
Therapy with him, because we had to get along to work together, yeah. Do you have a favorite episode Barry?
Barry Josephson 53:43
As much as I did, adore and love the pilot, I think we gained some great footing with the Katrina episode.
Emily Deschanel 53:53
Oh yeah, we haven’t gotten to that episode, but it’s a winter season.
Barry Josephson 53:58
And when you get to that episode, it was an episode I really wanted to see made, and I think it really challenged Brennan’s character a lot. I think the setting was fascinating. I think the characters you interacted with were fascinating. I just love that episode, because it just shows you and booth on your left foot, quite a put, quite a bit. It’s intense, yeah, and, and I like the intensity of it. And then I’d say next to that would be the sort of humor and insanity of the episode where you’re trapped.
Emily Deschanel 54:30
And the car the two aliens on the Christmas to.
Barry Josephson 54:35
The Christmas one.
Emily Deschanel 54:36
Okay, fabulous man in the fallout shelter.
Barry Josephson 54:40
And then, yes, for sure, when you and TJ are trapped in the car.
Emily Deschanel 54:44
Aliens or something like that, that’s a really good episode.
Barry Josephson 54:47
Fabulous episode. And it’s just a fabulous episode. I remember thinking too, when booth is running across the sand and then he’s digging and digging for you guys, it was so emotional. And you and TJ. They were so great in that episode. It’s, it’s a wonderful, wonderful episode, so, yeah, so there’s no one, there’s three. And I think the the great thing about that holiday episode was getting to see them just be a little bit crazy.
Carla Gallo 55:12
Yeah, on drugs and the […]
Emily Deschanel 55:14
Whole thing.
Carla Gallo 55:18
Right, it’s the other one.
Barry Josephson 55:19
We see booth unwind.
Emily Deschanel 55:20
He’s funny. It was funny.
Carla Gallo 55:25
The whole families that come to visit and all that we really.
Emily Deschanel 55:27
Yeah, you get to know things about the characters booth, having a kid.
Carla Gallo 55:31
Yeah, that’s a great episode. I’m curious, do you have any just, like, a funny any funny memories, or just things that stand out, that are like, oh, this one crazy time or anything.
Barry Josephson 55:42
Yes, I think the probably the one that will end this podcast, and that is, I threw a surprise party for Emily Deschanel on set the first year, I think. And you know, you think you’re a great producer, and you’re gonna figure everything out. And, you know, make everybody happy. Okay? And so I gathered everybody on set, and I pulled off the best surprise she did not know. No one said anything. This was a week of work, a cake that was going to be rolled out and presented, and I had your mom there.
Emily Deschanel 56:16
I blame my mom for that.
Barry Josephson 56:17
I blame her too.
Emily Deschanel 56:19
I blame my mom.
Barry Josephson 56:21
She allowed it to Mary Jo.
Carla Gallo 56:23
And she knew that this is not a thing for you.
Barry Josephson 56:26
So cut to I have everyone there, the studio there, and so on. And we have, we go on a break.
Emily Deschanel 56:32
We come back from the break, came back for rehearsal.
Barry Josephson 56:36
Right, Emily comes back, walks on set, and she sees like 50 or 60 people to celebrate birthday and sing Happy Birthday to her wait. And I’m standing there with the studio president, and I’m telling Peter, this is a great thing. She’s gonna be so happy. And we just, we all eyes on Emily, and Emily walks in the room and she cries and she turns and she splits.
Carla Gallo 57:03
Oh no.
Barry Josephson 57:06
And Peter Ligori looks like, I think you said this was going to be a good thing.
Carla Gallo 57:11
Oh no.
Barry Josephson 57:13
And I later learned this was not something that Emily appreciates. No surprises like that.
Emily Deschanel 57:22
Barry, first of all, I should just say thank you for that, because I’m really calm.
Barry Josephson 57:25
I try.
Emily Deschanel 57:26
It’s a very kind gesture. And it like, why would you think anything would go wrong? Yeah, my mom should have said that. I said I’m not a big, like, surprise person, or, like, a birthday like, singing happy birthday person. I remember, like as a child, like bursting into tears with the when people surprised me with a birthday thing, and my I was like, wow, why are you doing this? I didn’t know this was happening. I think it’s a control thing. But also the little backstory is like, I we had just, like the day before, two days before, heart had to have like a conversation with me and told me I was be that the studio said I was late and said that I was unprepared or and so I took it as I was unprofessional, because it was honestly like trying to remember the lines. I was very stressed out.
Barry Josephson 58:14
Yes, the thing that you need to understand is this, so now I make excuses and say something to the studio and the network, and they’re gone. And now comes the moment that all producers know, when you are about to do this, you’re gonna knock on the actors or actresses door of their trailer, okay? And I know I have to go in there, and I know I have to apologize, but what I don’t know is, what the heck did I do wrong?
Emily Deschanel 58:46
You don’t know. You’re like, what did I do wrong? Sorry, just start with I’m sorry, and then.
Barry Josephson 58:50
All I know is tears cut and run. Okay, so now I’m like, so I go to the door, and I remember the door opening and and Emily looks at me, and I look at her, and I, all I could say is, I so sorry, you know, but by then, I’m sorry you had gathered yourself a bit, and we had a nice conversation about it, and I was not blamed, but I was wearing it that day.
Emily Deschanel 59:16
I blame my mom for not saying anything. I don’t know why she I think she probably got caught up, really nice gesture, and didn’t say and honestly, I mean, what can I say? There’s many reasons why it happened. But no, I felt I was very I was embarrassed.
Carla Gallo 59:29
Well, it made for a good podcast story all these years later.
Emily Deschanel 59:34
It’s worth it. I knew that at the time that like, 15 years later, 18 years later, 18 years, that I would make a podcast about the show. I wouldn’t podcast didn’t exist. No, they did, but […]
Barry Josephson 59:49
But here you are, as you were then, carrying a lot of the show on your shoulders. So there’ll be rewards.
Emily Deschanel 59:58
Thanks, Barry.
Barry Josephson 59:59
You’re welcome. Thank you. This was a pleasure.
Carla Gallo 1:00:01
It was fascinating to hear it all. I must say, I know, because.
Emily Deschanel 1:00:05
I mean, education. This is the me. This is the thing that brings us all together.
Barry Josephson 1:00:09
This is the bone.
Carla Gallo 1:00:11
Barry is a thing that you’re together, you’re the skeleton of bones.
Emily Deschanel 1:00:16
Yeah, thanks for listening, everybody. The one person listening. Just kidding, your mother.
Emily Deschanel 1:00:30
Oh, that was a great interview.
Carla Gallo 1:00:32
He is a great interviewee.
Emily Deschanel 1:00:34
I know he really is. I want to, I mean, I want to hear so much more from him honestly.
Carla Gallo 1:00:40
I know.
Emily Deschanel 1:00:41
I could just talk to him about all kinds. I want to hear about those days with Whoopi Goldberg, too.
Carla Gallo 1:00:45
He should write a book. He’s like, yes, it’s almost like a kid stays in the picture, like Robert, like he’s got so many stories, like good stories. He’s just been doing it in in the thick of it for a long time. So he has some great stories and great bone stories. I just I was also obviously because I didn’t know, I’m learning as we go, but just how there would be no bones without him. I mean his being able to identify that Kathy Reichs from that news clip, that he saw that sort of documentary, that she is a character, and that there is a show there around this woman. I thought that was amazing.
Emily Deschanel 1:01:23
Yeah, and hearing about David Boreanis getting involved in the show, all of it, yeah, it’s interesting for me, even though I was there for a lot of it.
Carla Gallo 1:01:38
Well, I mean, he, he let you know so much about like, what predated you, which is fascinating. You never get to find that stuff out.
Emily Deschanel 1:01:44
I know that’s why. This is why, a whole reason we’re doing this podcast.
Carla Gallo 1:01:49
Just so you can get info. Yeah, no, it was awesome. That was awesome.
Emily Deschanel 1:01:54
Thanks for joining us, and we’ll be back next week with more Boneheads.
CREDITS 1:02:03
There’s more Boneheads with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content, like excerpts from interviews, extra fan questions and more behind the scenes convos. Subscribe now on Apple podcasts. Boneheads is a production of Lemonada Media and us. It’s produced by Kegan Zema, Claire Jones and Alex McOwen. Our engineers are Brian Castillo and Noah Smith. Our senior vice president of weekly content is Steve Nelson. Our executive producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer and us; Emily Deschanel and Carla Gallo. Music by Doug Paisley. Special thanks to Allison Bresnik to stay up to date with us and submit your listener questions. Follow us on Instagram, @boneheadspod and @lemonadamedia on all social channels. Follow Boneheads wherever you get your podcasts, or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership. Thanks so much for listening.