Subscribe to Lemonada Premium for Bonus Content

Which Real Housewives franchise is the best of all time: New York or Beverly Hills? The Watch What Crappens podcast co-hosts square off – Ben Mandelker is team RHONY while Ronnie Karam is repping Beverly Hills – to try and get Aminatou Sow to select their respective installment as the winner. Who’s the bigger villain, Ramona Singer or Camille Grammer? How does Yolanda Foster’s “almond mom” moment compare to Bethenny Frankel’s Skinnygirl empire? And what do we even do with the RHONY reboot? Aminatou considers all of these questions and more on her way to declaring the best Real Housewives franchise ever.

Follow Ben @benmandelker on X and Instagram and Ronnie @ronniekaram on X and Instagram.

Keep up with Aminatou Sow @aminatou on Instagram and X. And stay up to date with us @LemonadaMedia on X, Facebook, and Instagram.

For a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this and every other Lemonada show, go to lemonadamedia.com/sponsors.

Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Ronnie Karam, Speaker 1, Ben Mandelker, Aminatou Sow

Aminatou Sow  00:00

I’m Aminatou Sow, and I’m a writer who loves pop culture. So welcome to Pop Culture Debate Club from Lemonada, and the BBC. We bring on some of the funniest, smartest folks in the biz to go head to head over TV, music and movies that we love. And because I’m the judge, I get to choose the winner. Today, I’m so thrilled to be bringing on two of the foremost experts in today’s topic on the show, we have Ronnie Karam and Ben Mandelker, host of the Bravo Universe Podcast, Watch What Crappens. These men have spent countless hours delving into the drama of our favorite reality stars. Today, they’ll be facing off over the best Real Housewives franchise of all time.

 

Aminatou Sow  02:35

I obviously understand how culturally important housewives is. All my number ones would never let me forget. So this is obviously our most important episode to date. Let’s kick things off. Welcome guys.

 

Ronnie Karam  02:45

Well, hello, welcome. I mean, thank you for welcoming us.

 

Ben Mandelker  02:49

We’re glad to be here. Thanks for having us.

 

Aminatou Sow  02:51

Oh, my God, okay, Ben, I’m gonna start with you. Can you introduce yourself and tell us what real housewife series you’re going to be repping today?

 

Ben Mandelker  02:59

My name is Ben Mandelker, and I am a Real Housewives of New York girlie, as they would say in modern slang, Real Housewives of New York is my number one of all time.

 

Aminatou Sow  03:12

Let’s talk about it really quickly. Does this include the season 14 reboot cast? Jenna Lyons, oh, no, like we’re doing things very sporty here today. I just get to know.

 

Ben Mandelker  03:24

I rebuke it. I don’t even know what that season is. I refuse to welcome it into my I want my obnoxious Upper East Side women of a certain age, and so I rebuke the latest season.

 

Aminatou Sow  03:36

Okay, no problem, Ronnie. Can you introduce yourself and tell us what series you’re repping today.

 

Ronnie Karam  03:43

Well, hello, I’m Ronnie Karam, and today I’ll be repping The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

 

Aminatou Sow  03:49

Wow, a classic East Coast, West Coast feud. It’s very rap, you know, like worthy of the two of you we love it.

 

Ronnie Karam  03:57

Yes, yeah. We always think when we see each other. It’s a classic fight, because when you get into it, you can, whenever I’m losing, I can always say, but our weather’s better, because I feel like that is such a West Coast thing. You know, anytime anybody disses us, we just say, but it’s like 80 degrees right now. So by wham.

 

Aminatou Sow  04:18

You know that’s not, that’s not going to hold in the era of climate change, but I’m gonna let you hold on to that.

 

Ronnie Karam  04:25

My climate change is still more acceptable than yours on the East Coast.

 

Aminatou Sow  04:30

Okay, that hurts, but don’t make me already choose, like, give a point to New York just based on that. So Okay, before we get into it, just tell me a little bit about your podcast. Watch what happens and how it came to be.

 

Ben Mandelker  04:44

Well, we started this podcast about 12 and a half years ago. It was an extension of a web show that we used to do. It was like this little web show called housewife hoedown that came and went and put the network the network that was on the. Shut down. We’re like, Well, why don’t we keep doing this as a podcast? Our background is that we both are bloggers. We both were pop culture TV bloggers back in the 2000s when blogging was a thing, and we’ve just been doing it. We’ve been doing it since for 12 and a half years, and.

 

Aminatou Sow  05:15

It’s 12 and a half years. How many episodes is that?

 

Ben Mandelker  05:18

What are we on? We’re like, on like, 2500s? 2400s ?

 

Aminatou Sow  05:23

That’s so beautiful to me. That’s gorgeous. 2500 episodes.

 

Ben Mandelker  05:29

It’s wild. We do basically an episode every day of the week.

 

Aminatou Sow  05:33

Man, it’s like that, um, Mary Oliver, where she’s like, what are you gonna do with your one precious life? And you’re both like, we’re gonna talk about housewives.

 

Ronnie Karam  05:40

And like, you can’t do anything else. You know what I mean, because that’s our entire resume. I mean, anything else we did was so long ago, it doesn’t count. You know? It’s like, when people decide they’re gonna go parent their children, and then, like, The Good Wife, I’m just basically pretending I’m in The Good Wife with Juliana Margulies, where she’s like, but I parented my children and I’m ready to be a lawyer again. And they’re like, no, you’re not, ma’am. And that’s what it’s like as a Bravo commentator, you know, you go back into the world, and they’re like, all you’ve done is talk about housewives for 10 years. How are we supposed to employ you, sir?

 

Aminatou Sow  06:16

I mean, to be fair to you, our entire culture is housewives now. So it’s not like you have some sort of, like, niche, weird, you know, like, thing that you’re into, maybe, like, 10, whatever, years ago, it was whatever. I’m convinced that we’re gonna have a housewife debate, like in one of the coming elections. I was like, the Bravo vote was very important. The housewife vote is important. If they’re not already calling Andy Cohen to do a debate, they’re idiots, because our entire culture is housewives.

 

Ben Mandelker  06:45

Yeah, it’ll be really important to find out who Camille grammar is voting for this election. So need to, need to court her.

 

Ben Mandelker  06:51

You think you don’t know? You think that was a […]

 

Ben Mandelker  06:56

Terrible example. Maybe Denise Richards.

 

Aminatou Sow  07:00

Let’s get into it. Here are the rules of our show. Very simple. Everybody knows already. Your mission is just to win me over with your argument as to why your pick today is the best Real Housewives franchise of all time, a tall order. I’m so happy not to be you. Ben, I am going to start with you. Can you tell us a little about Real Housewives of New York and why it’s your top contender.

 

Ben Mandelker  07:25

So Real Housewives of New York was the second or third, I don’t remember the exact order the second or third spin off of the original OC and from the get go, it was just brilliant. You just had a group of women who, I think all really thought they were the breakout stars of the same show, and they it has been a clash of egos and booze for years and years and years. It eventually spiraled out of control, as these things do. And you know, they were all wiped off the wiped off the slate, and a new batch was brought in. And we’re not going to talk about the new batch here, not included in my assessment, unless they come back and have a really good season this year. But, like, I don’t have high hopes.

 

Aminatou Sow  08:08

Did you always feel that way about New York, or did it grow on you? Was it like an immediate, like, I love it, and then immediate?

 

Ben Mandelker  08:14

I remember that first season watching Jill zeren. I think she was playing against Luann, or she played with Luann against Ramona, but she was Jill zeren was trying to prove her worth on the tennis court in the Hamptons, and like watching how much that mattered to her, I will always remember that, and I’ll always remember when Jill zeren had a ladies dinner that first season, and Alex McCord brought her husband Simon, and Ramona lost her mind like And she she got so mad. I remember watching and think to myself, like, I can’t believe someone’s acting like this at a dinner party, not realizing that within 10 years, this would actually be considered tame. You know, from the get go, real house was New York grabbed me and never let me go. It was always hilarious. These women always left it all out there. They let anything that was on their mind, they said it, and they continue to do it. And whether or not I agree with things that they said, whether or not I approve the things that they said, they always showed up, and they always knew the game, and for that, they’re my number one.

 

Aminatou Sow  09:16

Okay, Ronnie, you selected Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Tell me why you picked up.

 

Ronnie Karam  09:21

You know, it’s really rough to pick one of these, because we devote so much time and love to every single one. So I’m so sorry to everybody who’s not here right now, but I chose Beverly Hills first because it was my entry into it. I was blogging for TV, and I was recapping Top Chef, which to me, was classy reality TV. So I thought that was okay. But then Real Housewives came on the scene, and I thought, This is ridiculous. I’m not watching that. That’s I’m way too classy for this stuff. And I saw the comment count on these recaps going nuts into the 1000s, and I thought, What is this? I still ignored it. I just held on to ignoring it. So finally, but. Beverly Hills comes out, and I was like, Well, I’m gonna take this because now these are so popular, I’m just gonna jump in. I’d never seen one. And so when I became obsessed immediately, I will never forget that feeling. I mean, look what it’s led to. You know that obsession, right? Instantly, just seeing all these women from a world that I had no idea I was living in Los Angeles, but I had no idea of what that was like. You know, being from Beverly Hills and the ex child star, who was now a complete mess, but a mess that you’re not allowed to talk about. It’s very LA, you know, like you’re not alone to talk about and until someone says, I’m an addict or I have this ex problem, you’re not allowed to talk about it. Then her sister, who is always jealous and never really the star, became kind of the breakout star of this show. And so watching that dynamic change was just fascinating. And then you have the like matriarch, British lady who’s just fabulous and carries around her little dog and only wears pink, and her little husband who walks around with her purse following her like a little skin Roomba named Ken. And then the filthy rich lady who owns a sports team across the street who washes chicken with dish soap because she’s never cooked before, dying. And then Camille grammar, the you know, the glamorous wife who used to be a dancer, both in clubs and on MTV, you know, bag and Frazier from TV, you know, which is still a huge deal at that time, and riding around her estate on a golf cart because it was so big she couldn’t get from place to place. I mean, I was like, what is this? And by the way, Camille Grammar, what a monster.

 

Aminatou Sow  11:41

I have a really silly Camille Grammar story for both of you.

 

Ben Mandelker  11:44

Oh, please.

 

Aminatou Sow  11:44

So, I had not watched Beverly Hills at all, like, I think, like I had seen OC I, you know, like imprinted on Atlanta. I had seen everything. And then around 2015 2016 I was like, You know what? Maybe one day I’ll watch Beverly Hills. It’s weird that I’ve never seen it, but for some reason it just like, never grabbed me and I am at home recovering from cancer treatment. Don’t get too sad. It’s totally fine, but at the time, it was terrifying, and I thought I was gonna die. I’ve told this story so many times, but it’s like, you know, my doctor is like, you gotta, like, find things that make you happy and they bring you joy and positive thinking or whatever. And I’m like, wow, this is the time where some people, they go, they’re like, I’m finally gonna learn how to play piano. I’m gonna learn German. I’m gonna hang out with my family, I’m gonna whatever. And me, I was like, No, I’m gonna watch real houses of Beverly Hills. This is what, this is what I’m gonna do with my one precious life as I go through radiation treatment, let me tell you, I was hooked. Immediately hooked. I couldn’t believe I hadn’t seen it, that the infamous dinner party from hell, season one, episode nine, I’m convinced, is what cured me of cancer, because I had never seen anything like it. It was so intense. I was texting all of my like friends who were professors, whether they taught media studies or not. And I was like, you have to teach this in school. This is like everything that you need to know about the recession and life and friendship and whatever. But and also remember Camille had been dealing with like cancer herself. So I was like, very much would like spending my days on Instagram, making my little slideshow stories all day. And once, I think, I tagged her in something, and she wrote me the sweetest little note about just like having cancer, and she was like, get better, and it’s all good, and do things that make you happy. And I’m like, you don’t even understand what a part of this journey you’ve been so to say sometimes a monster, but sometimes very kind to a random internet stranger.

 

Ronnie Karam  13:41

You know, multifaceted well, she started off as the biggest villain, but no one is ever the biggest villain forever. I mean, that’s one of the other brilliant things about those shows, is they really give everyone their turn. I mean, yeah, everyone you know, sometimes.

 

Aminatou Sow  13:57

Isn’t that like life? It depends who is looking. It depends.

 

Ronnie Karam  14:00

It is sometimes you’re up and sometimes you’re down.

 

Aminatou Sow  14:02

Yes, it depends on the storyline. Okay, so we know that, like many of the housewives are known for, being very problematic. Is there anything about your the series that you picked that doesn’t hold up, or that you’re like, ah, like, this is not great.

 

Ben Mandelker  14:18

Well, the real house of New York? No, everything just holds up really well.

 

Ronnie Karam  14:26

Perfectly.

 

Aminatou Sow  14:27

Great politics.

 

Ronnie Karam  14:29

Totally, when they recast the whole thing and fired everybody, totally went great on that.

 

Ben Mandelker  14:34

I would say probably the here’s the thing, you know, real households New York it hits great heights. It also has some low lows. You have Luan showing up dressed as Diana Ross for Halloween. That was not a great moment about long ago, really. That was not that long ago. But you have also the final Old School New York season, where you have. You know, Ebony K Williams just trying to be part of this cast. And you have Luann saying things like, well, she’s an angry woman. Or you have Ramona saying, You know what, I don’t I’m not a white supremacist. And you’re thinking yourself, Oh, this is, this is not going to help me win people over to Real Housewives of New York right now, stuff like that has was weird to say that that hasn’t aged well, because it, like you said, it’s actually only like two years ago. It was bad in the moment that it happened. But actually something that really has not aged well is Bethany Frankel, just Bethany Frankel in general, but also Bethany Frankel, her whole skinny girl thing, has really not aged well, because I think that, like, we as a society have moved away cocktail, cocktail company, exactly everyone. I think we have, like, moved away from, like, prizing, you know, skinny, being skinny and skinny girl this, and she’s, I think she’s tried to, kind of, like, rebrand it and like, like, reclaim skinny as, like, skinny is just like a state of mind, something like that. But I think probably the whole skinny girl thing is the thing from New York that also is, like, it’s like, a sneaky, a sneaky thing that has not aged very well.

 

Aminatou Sow  16:13

Yeah, it’s also just, it’s complicated, like hearing both of you talk about it, because the skinny girl thing is interesting in that, yes, like, unfortunate, name, terrible. This is a show that, like, prioritizes, you know, like skinniness and like, an unwellness to a degree that it’s just, like, very problematic. And at the same time, I’m like, wow. Like, Bethany was really ahead of this, like, drinks in a can, thing that everybody is doing now. And, like, she was an entrepreneur, and she, you know, like, do problematic people not deserve also to be recognized for the things that they do well. And so again, it’s like, you know, when I think about it purely as the story of a woman entrepreneur, it’s interesting to me. But of course, it’s complicated. It’s nuanced. And there are a lot of terrible things that that come from that.

 

Ronnie Karam  16:57

Well, they’re terrible now, but I mean, it’s like you just said, it’s culture, it’s what it’s reflecting what culture is, but it was reflecting what culture was at that time too. And so now we’re looking at it through the lens of that is terrible. How can you get away with calling something skinny? Or when she came out with her skinny jeans only for skinny people, and people were like, that’s the first time I ever heard people like, excuse me. You can’t just make clothes for thin people. Like, who are you? And that was.

 

Aminatou Sow  17:22

Brandi Melville. She’s Brandi Melville, but.

 

Ronnie Karam  17:25

That’s the first time I’d ever seen really any pushback for Bethany, and people starting to say, well, that’s not right. But at the time, no one had a problem with that. Everything was called Skinny, this skinny that the goal was to be skinny and have hair.

 

Ben Mandelker  17:40

The whole almond mother thing came directly from real households of Beverly Hills.

 

Ronnie Karam  17:44

Yeah, the almond mom is Yolanda foster so there’s a lot of stuff that we now were like, that’s harmful, but at the time, no one thought anything of it. It’s just how it was, you know.

 

Aminatou Sow  17:54

Okay, let’s take a break. Even though I’m loving talking to both of you, I just realized that I have not given you five seconds to take a breather. So I’m sorry about that.

 

Ben Mandelker  18:03

Oh, it’s fine.

 

Speaker 1  19:50

Okay, breaks over, we’re gonna move into our lightning round. That is very fast, very quick, and you know, like we’ll we’ll get through it as a family. It’s perfect lightning round. Here we go, Ronnie, please complete this sentence. If Yolanda Foster is an almond mom, you Ronnie carram are a blank?

 

Ronnie Karam  21:39

Eminem mom?

 

Aminatou Sow  21:43

I love that. Ben, Real Housewives castmate Carol radswell frequently brought up the fact that she was training for a marathon. What is your most bragged about physical feat?

 

Ben Mandelker  21:54

That I had an appendectomy and survived?

 

Aminatou Sow  21:57

You know, I’m so proud of you for being a survivor.

 

Ben Mandelker  22:01

I’ve apparently talked about my appendectomy a lot, and people are sick of it, so I guess I feel like that’s my most braggable thing.

 

Aminatou Sow  22:08

I would talk about it every single day.

 

Ben Mandelker  22:09

But especially, like five minutes after she’s talking about her survival cancer.

 

Ronnie Karam  22:13

I realized, you’re like, I had cancer. I was like, I had an appendectomy.

 

Aminatou Sow  22:18

I don’t know how to tell you a medical event is a medical event like you know, we take we take what we get on here. Also, appendectomies are scary. Okay? Ronnie, the women of Beverly Hills are frequently going on five figure shopping sprees and purchasing luxury cars. What has been your most luxurious splurge lately?

 

Ronnie Karam  22:40

I went to four home goods in a row in the valley. The other day, four in a row, and I bought something at every single one.

 

Aminatou Sow  22:48

This economy?

 

Ronnie Karam  22:51

Well, not expensive things, but you know, like, I got Matt mitts, oven mitts at one, and then I got a wooden spoon at another one, and then I got a couple pillows at another one. It was homemade, and then I did buy it like a little table at one. I mean, I felt like I needed to call a, you know, a limo to take me home.

 

Aminatou Sow  23:10

Okay, Ben, many viewers say that the new real households of New York. I’m so sorry, the new reboot hardly rivals the original. But what if a castmate from the reboot and one from the original had to be like, had to rival one another in like, hand to hand combat. Who would you pick to face off and why?

 

Ben Mandelker  23:28

Hmm, who to who to pick the face. Okay, Dorinda, from old school and from new school, I am going to pick, um, I’m gonna pick side of Silva. I feel like she has some great well, she talks about, like, you know, she was like, you know, she had, like, a tough upbringing. So I think the two of them would have a really good.

 

Aminatou Sow  23:50

Who would win, who wins?

 

Ben Mandelker  23:51

Dorinda always wins.

 

Aminatou Sow  23:54

Okay, of course, Ronnie, which cast member from your respective show, has the most unique laugh. And can I hear it?

 

Ronnie Karam  24:06

Lisa Vanderpump, darling.

 

Aminatou Sow  24:09

What about you, Ben?

 

Ben Mandelker  24:12

I would say Ramona Singer, her laugh is I imagine something in your in your […], and that is ramona’s lab.

 

Ronnie Karam  24:29

Imagine 90 seagulls flying in one path, squawking and then all hitting a window one by one.

 

Aminatou Sow  24:38

That is so diabolical.

 

Ronnie Karam  24:40

I can’t believe, by the way, you didn’t give it to Lisa Rinna.

 

Ben Mandelker  24:43

You’re right. You’re absolutely because I’ll have to do it different. Lisa Ren is she’s got, like, a pant that she does.

 

Aminatou Sow  24:55

Wow, new insecurity unlocked for me. Someone doing your laugh like. Daddy, I had not not. I had not like pegged.

 

Ben Mandelker  25:04

You have a beautiful laugh.

 

Aminatou Sow  25:06

You know what? Thank you. I don’t believe you, but thank you.

 

Ronnie Karam  25:09

Really good. I laugh like a cartoon villain.

 

Ben Mandelker  25:13

My life has changed. Actually, it’s weird. I’ve noticed that these days I laugh like this, and I used to never laugh like that. And somehow I know.

 

Aminatou Sow  25:20

But don’t you have a private laugh? Like my private laugh always makes me die, because it’s. It’s so silly. It’s like, you’re, you know, it’s like the middle of the night and you’re scrolling through the tiktoks, and it’s like, what’s happening that laughs, that laugh, is diabolical. Okay, Ben, if real houses of New York cast member was your astrology sign? Who would it be and why?

 

Ben Mandelker  25:41

It would be Countess Luann, because I have Countless Luann is my number one housewife of all time. She is amazing. She has had so many different chapters of her life, and so she would have to be my astrology sign, because why wouldn’t I want my sign to be both someone who writes a book about proper etiquette and also has sex with pirates and also has a cabaret tour and just posed with Tilda Swinton at her show. Can you believe that Tilda Swinton showed up?

 

Aminatou Sow  26:12

Tilda went to the cabaret. I mean, you know what good for Tilda made her 1,000% even more interesting to me immediately. Yeah. I was like, wow.

 

Ben Mandelker  26:21

Yah, countess Luann is my constellation. She is what I look up to in the skies, and she is my birth sign.

 

Aminatou Sow  26:29

I am dying. Okay, Ronnie, same question for you with Beverly Hills. Who’s your astrology sign?

 

Ronnie Karam  26:34

My sign for Beverly Hills would probably be, gosh, I don’t know. I don’t identify with any of the people from Beverly Hills, really? Kim Richards, no, I mean, no, they’re all such a mess, Carlton.

 

Aminatou Sow  26:54

I’ll take it. I’ll take it. You don’t have to have an answer.

 

Ronnie Karam  26:56

No, I really don’t. I really don’t think I identify with anyone in that way, probably the most is Kyle, who I don’t like, who’s the one that like sticks on my she makes me nuts on that show. And I’m probably most similar to her.

 

Aminatou Sow  27:09

I mean, but speak of the full recall of the dinner party. Remember what Allison said to her? And it’s like it’s also back.

 

Ronnie Karam  27:17

Yeah, it really is. I would say I’m probably the most I I’m probably the most similar to the people that make me crazy on the shows I’m like, textbooks, pop psychology, you know, issues, and I know it, but yeah, she’s always made me the craziest, and I think it’s because of stuff that I see in myself.

 

Aminatou Sow  27:34

Ben, what is your all time favorite scene from Beverly Hills, Ronnie’s pick?

 

Ben Mandelker  27:41

Oh, my goodness. Well, I mean, look, just because New York is my choice for favorite does not mean I don’t absolutely love Beverly Hills. And there are so many amazing scenes like I just have to, I have to go with what flashes into my brain the moment you ask that question. It’s one of the most iconic scenes in all of housewives lore. It is the end of season one in the limo. Kyle Kim, you stole my goddamn house. You’re a fucking alcoholic. That moment in the limo was so dark and it was it was so shocking because we uncorked at the very end of the season a discovery that, like, oh, everything between Kyle and Kim is a disaster, like they their issues go so deep, and we had no idea. It was such an amazing discovery. It revealed so much darkness underneath the surface. It really set the tone for what the rest of the entire show would be. It was an amazing.

 

Aminatou Sow  28:42

I’ll be back for next season. Like, yeah. Of all cliffhangers.

 

Ben Mandelker  28:46

This was like family drama that goes back decades, and it all came out in that moment. And my jaw was on the floor, and I just knew this was, this was going to be an iconic moment for years to come.

 

Aminatou Sow  29:00

okay, Ronnie, what about you? What’s your favorite scene from Real Housewives of New York, which is Ben’s pick?

 

Ronnie Karam  29:06

And it is I think the one that really sealed it for me early on was their trip to Morocco, because it was just the whole thing was crazy, but just one, I thought was so illustrative, illustrative of how they all are. There was kind of a nerdier housewife named Alex, and she was always trying to be glamorous. She just wasn’t glamorous. She wasn’t rich. She had a weird husband. She was kind of a nerd, and people just ignored her. And she kept trying to get in the fights in Morocco, and they would just not let her into these fights. And she would come up, and she would try start telling someone off in her nerdy little way, and they would just shoot her down every time. And she came up to Luann, and she said, and another thing, Luann, it’s just, oh God, and here you come in your Herman Munster shoes. And she said, what did she say? These are Louis Vuitton. She says, Even Louis Vuitton makes mistakes, right?

 

Ben Mandelker  29:56

That was actually, yes, that was after. That was actually after the. Vacation, and they were trying to hash things out and and she says that, but on the actual vacation, when Alex tried to.

 

Ronnie Karam  30:07

Wasn’t that when she stomps down, weren’t they in a vacation? They were getting a foot massage or something, or no, getting henna. They were getting henna tattoos.

 

Ben Mandelker  30:14

So when the the Herman Munster shoes and the Louis Vuitton, even Louis Vuitton, makes mistakes, moment that happened when they were talking about the vacation afterwards, but when she came down the stairs, when she came down the stairs while Luann was getting her Hannah, you hear Alex McCord stomping downstairs and goes, what is that? A water buffalo or something like that? She says something like that. What’s that noise?

 

Aminatou Sow  30:38

I hate that I’m laughing. This is So, mean, I hate that I’m laughing, and yet.

 

Ben Mandelker  30:43

Do you remember that it was so dismissive? She’s like, is that a water buffalo coming down the stairs? It’s Alex McCoy. It was just, it was, like, moments like that so silly. I mean, just so silly, because she was trying so hard to just get in there and start, you know, be a real housewife and have all these fights, and they were just not letting her do it, you know, good, good for her. You don’t have to be like that. You know?

 

Aminatou Sow  31:06

You really don’t have to be like that. Okay, let’s take a quick break.

 

Aminatou Sow  32:21

And we’re back before I declare a winner, I just want to tell you how thoroughly entertaining this has been for me. I, you know, like, I, yeah, I always say that I don’t like, absolutely love these shows. I watch them for educational purposes. And education is important, obviously, and I’m trying to stay relevant, but I have to say that on my re watch to, like, talk to you, I was just so struck by how fun it all was. I was like, this is fun. I’m sorry. People who have shit to say about housewives are so uninteresting. Watch it or don’t, but like, you cannot deny that it is like a powerful cultural drug or not. And just over the like, over the decade plus years that these shows have been on, how much we’ve gotten from them and how much of it is in the cultural lexicon. Is just like, that is really fun and refreshing. So thanks for coming on here to talk to me about that. Oh, it’s been our pleasure. Oh, my gosh. Okay, now you both have about 30 seconds to state your case as to why your choice is the all time best housewives franchise, and I have the very hard job of picking who wants to go first. I’ll give you a choice. Okay, I’ll start okay. Ben, state your final case.

 

Ben Mandelker  33:35

Final case. I think the most important point to make also here is look at the roster on Real Housewives of New York, Countess Luann Ramona, singer Dorinda medley, Sonia Morgan, Bethany Frankel, Jill Zaryn, Tinsley, Mortimer, Carol Radziwill, even, I mean, the list goes on and on. These are, like top tier Real Housewives cast members. These are people who, like on their own, would be the star of an ensemble, and they’ve been all together, and they worked well together for years and years and years and years. They always gave it their all. You could look at really any real housewives season, and there will be hilarious, funny moments, even the even though the lesser known Real Housewives of New York, you know a heather Thompson or an Aviva dresser who, incidentally, threw her leg across the room on an episode, okay, even the lesser known ones really were quite excellent. Kristen takeman, she was actually really funny. People don’t really seem to remember that. It is a deep roster. And that kind of roster of like icons only talent really, I think just seals the deal. It is the best Real Housewives there ever was.

 

Aminatou Sow  34:45

Okay, Ronnie, your turn.

 

Ronnie Karam  34:47

Well, I’m gonna go ahead and say that is a great show, and I respect everything that’s given to me, both as a person and to my culture. That said Beverly Hills. Says very rich darling. You just don’t understand British humor. They will have bigger fights over smaller things. People are rich enough to not really care, but they do care. They care so much and seeing them count all their real money, but still being so affected by some petty little slight about not being invited to a literal Tea Party, and have that go on year after year and get darker and deeper as the years go on and the resentment grows is just beautiful. I mean, we’ve seen Lisa Vanderpump, who, obviously I love. She created Vanderpump Rules, which is still a huge cultural phenomenon that’s still going on 10 years plus, you’ve got the rise and fall of Lisa Rinna, who I love since days of our lives when I was a little kid. I mean, look how much we learned about her and then watched her literally go crazy in front of our eyes and disappear forever. We’ve got supermodel children coming out of that show from the monitors, Lisa Rena and Yolanda Foster, we’ve got Kyle Richards. I mean, look around at any For Sale sign, and you will see the iconic red background with the A for the agency that would never have been born without Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, because Mauricio and Kyle got a taste of fame and decided they wanted to go above their brother in law and become even bigger than Cathy Hilton. And they created their own agency called the agency, which is now literally selling everybody’s house. It’s on every corner. So to watch that show, start with a bunch of nobodies, and now, everywhere I go, it’s literally popping up around me in for sale signs and Calvin Klein ads. I’m gonna have to give it props.

 

Aminatou Sow  36:46

Okay, I’ve heard both of you. I am not gonna drag this on and say that I my choice today is Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

 

Ben Mandelker  36:57

Justice, personnia Morgan’s toaster oven. That’s why I gotta say. You may have the agency, but we have a toast.

 

Aminatou Sow  37:04

The agency did it. I want them to sell me a house. So that’s where that’s it’s corruption all the way through. No, I’ll tell you why I Ben, I actually, like, 1,000% agree with you that New York has more interesting characters like I, I think, like, on a casting level, New York. I’m just like, where do you even find all of these cooks? And how are we so lucky that they are all living in the same time in history? This is bananas, yes. But when it comes to like legacy and impacts and like Beverly Hills all the way, it just like the legal drama of it, all, the cultural drama of it, all the ups and downs, the divorces, the the the way that it is so intertwined with, like, the United States economy, and how these, like old rich people had no money, and how they like, weather a recession, and then, like, make this show and still pretend, you know, whatever. But I think that there is just something to me about the old money that feels like a little more interesting. You know, I was like, New York was a breath of fresh air. And I like, I love it. I want a lot more of it. But Beverly Hills, to me, it is the core of what housewives does, where I was like, okay, if there were no other, if there were no other shows, this is the one that I would like show an alien and be like, understand the culture of my people.

 

Ben Mandelker  38:20

That’s fair. I mean, I think you could definitely make an argument that, like real households of Beverly Hills also works on so many different levels, because it also says a lot about a certain tier of celebrity in Los Angeles. Of these 100 people that kind of all were friends and went through, like the OJ Simpson trials together, and like […]

 

Aminatou Sow  38:39

Faye Resnick, like.

 

Ben Mandelker  38:41

That they’re all, like, at the certain tier of Los Angeles celebrity. And it does say, like, the soap stars, the child stars.

 

Aminatou Sow  38:47

Yeah, it’s just like, a very specific scene that, like them tapped into reality TV is very different than these, like, kind of newcomers who are trying to be them. You know, I was like, like, Beverly. It’s still, it’s the like DNA blueprint for so many of these shows as much as it pains me to say that, but yeah, you know, I’ll give it to Beverly Hills. Let’s, let’s all come back in 25 years and see.

 

Ronnie Karam  39:14

Probably still be on. We’ll probably still be doing it.

 

Aminatou Sow  39:18

Sad to go do a recap. No, in 25 years, the like, First Lady will be on housewives. You know what? I mean, it’s like, it’ll be, it like, you’ll have to be there. It’s like, sorry, she they moved the White House to Potomac now, and this is how, this is just how our country is, and we’re explaining it to foreigners. So that’s my prediction for the future.

 

Ben Mandelker  39:36

Yeah, I mean the cultural impact. I mean, you can’t deny the agency. You can’t deny the Hadid these things did come out of Beverly Hills. But you know, look, you know, in five years, who knows what every singer will do, you know, so.

 

Aminatou Sow  39:47

Who knows who can predict the future? Um, thank you both so much for joining me today. This was so fun.

 

Ronnie Karam  39:53

Thank you for having us.

 

Aminatou Sow  39:55

Truly so fun, and I really appreciate it.

 

Ben Mandelker  39:56

Yeah, this was great to talk.

 

Ronnie Karam  39:57

So much fun.

 

Aminatou Sow  40:04

You can listen to Watch What Crappens with Ronnie Karam, and Ben Mandelker wherever podcasts are available. You can also check out bonus content on their Patreon. Follow them at Watch What Crappens on Instagram. There’s more Pop Culture Debate Club with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content, like the comfort food pics of Hrishikesh Hirway and Dan Pashman, my guests from the movie feast you’d most want to eat episode subscribe now in Apple podcasts.

 

CREDITS  40:33

Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Lemonada and the BBC.  I’m Aminatou Sow the show is produced by me, Joanna Solotaroff, Kryssy Pease, Lamar Wood and Dani Matias. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neel is VP of new content. Our SVP of weekly content is Steve Nelson. Commissioning editor for the BBC is Rhian Roberts. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer.  Follow Pop Culture Debate Club, wherever you get your podcasts.