Red Lips and Tanning Mitts

Subscribe to Lemonada Premium for Bonus Content

This week, the girls take some risks and cross some lines with questionable tanning mitts and Jessica announces she is in her red lip era. June and Jess discuss owning what your gifts are and asking for help for the things that don’t come as easy. Remember Deep Divers, it’s okay if you don’t know what a hot dog tastes like…yet. You will!

Stay up to date with us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at



June Diane Raphael, Jessica St. Clair

June Diane Raphael  00:10

Hi, I’m Jessica St. Clair.


June Diane Raphael  00:12

And I’m June Diane Raphael. And this is The Deep Dive.


Jessica St. Clair  00:17

We’re about to do what women have done for centuries we’re crowding around the fire with our generous hunches. We got babies hanging off our tips, and we’re going to share with you our fears, our joys, our tips on how to stay alive.


June Diane Raphael  00:32

Now just we’re heating a call that no one has made.


Jessica St. Clair  00:37

Not a soul, but you’re invited to listen. Absolutely, because we make one promise and one promise only we will not Google a thing because frankly, we’re too damn tired. Please get ready to go on The Deep Dive.


June Diane Raphael  00:57

Hi, Jessica.


Jessica St. Clair  01:01

June, friends. Are you still exhausted from our shoot that we had on Tuesday? Because I am and it’s Thursday.


June Diane Raphael  01:15

So I’ve not only am exhausted from that, but I have to tell you, I am currently hung over.


Jessica St. Clair  01:22

Oh, because you went out.


June Diane Raphael  01:25

I was, did a show last night Paul Scheer hosted a beautiful, beautiful events. I was incredibly proud of my man. Yeah, man. I was incredibly proud of my man. Because he.


Jessica St. Clair  01:39

He raised money for years.


June Diane Raphael  01:42

Yes, and it was a very large scale event. You know, anyway, so so I was there from like, three o’clock on then, so I was there for a long time, and it was festive. And the greenroom was so much fun, and it was just such a lovely, lovely vibe ,and yeah, for Deep Divers who like are thinking about what to do to help everybody who’s out on strike, like a lot of people are suffering, but these crew members who, you know, haven’t worked in six months since May, you know.


Jessica St. Clair  02:11

And they can’t do anything out. It’s not like, for us. It’s like, okay, we could still do our podcast, or we could thank God. And when the writers went back, we could still write there is an enormous population in Los Angeles, of people who are losing their homes who are unable to pay, who are leaving LA, who can’t afford food, the basics.


June Diane Raphael  02:36

That’s exactly right, and you know, it’s that what’s happening now with the strike is, it’s like, this is the leverage, you know, that labor movements have, but the crews will not participate in whatever deal we get. So it’s like, they’re not going to see the upside. So it is really fucking tough ,and it was a beautiful, money raising moment last night. And it was also just like, a beautiful way for all of these actors and artists to say like, we’re here together, and there was a moment where Andrew Savage came out on stage to introduce Lindsay Doherty, who’s one of the directors of the LA Teamsters Union and she’s fucking hot and amazing Jimmy Hoffa time in the world, but she but Andrew Savage asked the audience she’s like can everybody who’s in a union who works in our industry stand up and so many people stood up and I wanted to cry because it was like what industry can you really say that about? That yeah, above the line below the line, you know that everybody’s in and the just the amount of buy in for what’s happening right now and it was beautiful, but did I have three vodka soda splash or crown? Twisted alive?


Jessica St. Clair  03:57

You are becoming like an old like you’re becoming Elaine Stritch dance to the ladies.


June Diane Raphael  04:04

Yeah, and you know what those, I can’t recover from it now though. Is there over.


Jessica St. Clair  04:12

We got a limited amount of resources and we will say that we shot some holiday footage, some footage for the deep dive Academy for the holidays. That is so outrageous that here I’m just gonna say, listen,  I try not to plug the academy too much because for those of you who are listening who it’s not your bag like we all are welcome but I gotta tell you.


June Diane Raphael  04:37

All are welcome to not join as well.


Jessica St. Clair  04:40

Not join, that’s what I meant. Well, while you’re.


June Diane Raphael  04:43

Stay away, like we welcome tonight everybody to join and also to not join I know that’s a strange marketing slogan.


Jessica St. Clair  04:51

It is. True, but I do want to take a minute just to say that if you’re on the fence, and you’re like, hi, I want to maybe try it out for two months, November and December in the academy is a buzz like member in Harry Potter when it was like the the holidays, and they would have the banquets and the floating pumpkins and all that, that’s what’s happening right now. You know, you let me put self tanner on you.


June Diane Raphael  05:21

And listen, I do want to talk about this. So Jessica and I need probably heard on the podcast if you’re a longtime Deep Diver, but we have had a long running debate about tanning. Jessica said before, if you can’t tone it tan it and you know, specifically we’re speaking to a lot of white ladies who are very pale skin. A little color, and for white women, like I will say this is the truth. If you can’t tone it, down it, it looks better tanned, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. It’s just true, color on the skin looks better.


Jessica St. Clair  06:01

Sorry, I find myself I’ve self tanned myself so much that my skin is permanently pigmented. And it can’t ever go back to its natural state.


June Diane Raphael  06:11

But so I have said to Jessica before, there are certain things that I DIY. Well, actually, there’s very few things that I do. I bring in I’m happy to outsource most experiences in life. But there are certain things I will do myself, but tanning is not one of them. And this has been a long running debate because I have tried a few times to self harm and to disastrous results. and so I said, Jessica, you can tell me like show me what you do.


Jessica St. Clair  06:42

Intimate, to be open to, for you to put yourself in that position of vulnerability. And to put your little short shorts on. And you let me get my mid on and you let me go to work. And let me show you what I could do. And I used a mitt that had never been washed and three years had the residue of so many tans. You know the history, the history of so many hands pants.


June Diane Raphael  07:10

And also like it’s a miracle that I don’t have some sort of fungal infection. Or maybe it hasn’t shown up yet.


Jessica St. Clair  07:17

And I almost, and I almost fingered you.


June Diane Raphael  07:21

I felt I felt a I did feel a nail cross, cross.


June Diane Raphael  07:28

Cross the Rubicon. It crossed the Rubicon. It did it was quick, but I definitely felt it.


June Diane Raphael  07:36

You know, it was such an intimate experience. And yeah, I do think a lot of a lot of our work together, Jess is in me yelling at you and telling you to do things and saying put this bold red lip on now. It’s your collar. Do this Jessica do that Jessica. And I do it angrily and I make you do things and you’re my little Barbie doll, but I but I really let you have your way with me.


Jessica St. Clair  08:10

And I carried you around the pool. That’s where I carry you around the pool and I got you’re gonna so yeah, you’re gonna see that when you join. We all.


June Diane Raphael  08:20

Can I say something, Jess? I take back everything I said about home tanning. I take it all back. I didn’t know the technique you had, and Jessica and you can see you know if you’re an Academy student, you’ll see the actual footage but just for those of you aren’t Jessica, came up me with such with that mitt with such a frantic pace. And hardness and pressure.


Jessica St. Clair  08:49

And hard quick, quick, hard, hard, quick, quick everywhere.


June Diane Raphael  08:55

Yeah, it was so frantic, but Jess, you didn’t miss a spot.


Jessica St. Clair  08:58

I know. I was so nervous for you to like what you saw, and you did. And then you put it and then again, this is not a visual medium. You have to join the Academy. But during our styling segments with Abby about around the holiday and holiday party outfits, she cracked us wide open. What she did was so subtle, and so Parisian and so affordable and so accessible. It’s truly changed my life. And then you stopped the segment you said I gotta put a red lip on you and I’d never done it before and you put me into a place and I transformed and now I’m in my red lip era.


June Diane Raphael  09:40

Are you? really?


Jessica St. Clair  09:43



June Diane Raphael  09:45

Because something happened to Justin. You know, we’ve talked about working on the outside and a few times and what these things can mean to have long nails what that can do, honestly for your finances, for your spirituality for your mother and unlike what what a fucking manicure can do, specifically with tips, and I believe that red lip, is going to set you on a different course. And honestly, I don’t even know if it’s a better one. I don’t know what will happen what all I know is like I just had an interesting experience with you Jess because I’m like your lips are your one of your best features. And you were so like, Oh, I’m not I don’t want you felt garish with a red lip balm.


Jessica St. Clair  10:34

Don’t look at me, don’t, don’t think I’m something special. That’s that’s what the red lip says to the world. I mean, Taylor Swift dominates the entire SoFi stadium. She couldn’t do it without her lips red. She’s.


June Diane Raphael  10:49

I know when the cameraman is like trying to find her. He’s just looking for the red lip. First.


Jessica St. Clair  10:55

She’s coordinating it to a vintage chiefs sweatshirt. I took a lot of screenshots of them. She and Travis was gonna text you last night because I did a big Deep Dive on them. They are doing so great. I think about them all the time.


June Diane Raphael  11:11

I do too. I was actually I actually said to myself today is that are you going to talk about Travis and Taylor today like? Or is it all you are they all we have?


Jessica St. Clair  11:22

Kind of and talk about small talk, I went into the Clare V store because we had Lennon and I had a very important meeting and I didn’t feel like I had any clean chops. And I got into it with those girls about Travis and Taylor. And it is something that we can all as women bond about, and say our truth, which is that we do want to be thrown around. We do want a hand on the small of our back. We do want someone to say to security, I’ve got this from here.


June Diane Raphael  11:58

I am secure. I’m so much bigger than security.


Jessica St. Clair  12:01

He is tapping into something that has been laying dormant in all of us. And it spans generations. And now there will be women out there listening Deep Divers who we love dearly are gonna say I don’t want to be thrown around like a rag doll. That’s not something that I need. And again, you are also welcome. But do know that like a red lip can get you thrown around? If that’s what you want it can.


June Diane Raphael  12:26

Burma say something else about a red lip. And this is to to the two straight men who are listening. You know, I feel like there’s this idea of like, don’t look at me, don’t see me and you and I talked about where that comes from for you. But like, and why that red lip pushes you into an uncomfortable space. But I also think and I spoke to Chelsea Divan does about this on the podcast, the two of us talked about a red lip because she rocks a fucking red lip. And I said, you know, I think sometimes what happens with the red lip is like women have gotten this message from street men that like we look better without makeup or that we shouldn’t wear makeup or that the red lip connotes that we that like we’re too made up for them. And the thing that I’m loving so much about Travis and Taylor. The season two, that red lip.


Jessica St. Clair  13:23

His coordinating to it. He’s changing his wardrobe around it.


June Diane Raphael  13:27

And I want to say to all the men are like I don’t I like a woman who doesn’t wear a lot of makeup. I know you think you’re being feminist, but actually go fuck yourselves.


Jessica St. Clair  13:36



June Diane Raphael  13:37

Like go fuck yourself. First of all, you don’t even know what you want. And I don’t have time to take you through how you’ve been sold like the female image and how you’ve sort of internalized what you think you want or desire. But ultimately, I don’t give a fuck. And I don’t trust you to know actually. I don’t trust you to know. So I know you think you’re being like down with that statement. But like don’t, don’t actually speak about my lipstick color again.


Jessica St. Clair  14:14

Like when you post something on Instagram and your comments are not allowed. That’s where I would like to get. I don’t think Taylor’s gives a fuck what you think about her lips. And again, it’s Americana. She struggled with wanting people to you know, like her and everything but she has hit upon something that works for her and it does work and she goes for it and I love the idea of trying on a different personality for size at a cocktail party at a holiday party at a why not? It’s just paint, it’s paint. And when you see in the academy, the way it transforms me did I say that I was going to go blow the entire offensive line of the cheesy chiefs was I had Have them on?


June Diane Raphael  15:02

Yes. You said that.


Jessica St. Clair  15:04

I meant it.


June Diane Raphael  15:05

Oh, I know you did, I know you did. And that’s the thing about red lips that you have to understand is like you put those on and like, again, you might you might have to give a several blowed ups. I don’t know why. I don’t know how to draw that line. But they are also blow job lips, and oh, they’re just so great. They’re so fun.


Jessica St. Clair  15:32

They’re fun. So this is to say join the Academy. You know, just to try it out for the holidays.


June Diane Raphael  15:37

There’s a lot coming up. But I want to check in though Jess, so so have you had your red lips on since?


Jessica St. Clair  15:44

No, because I didn’t take it home with me. I need you to tell me the color because that’s the other thing. I’ve never worn a red ridge. I’ve never worn a red orange lip. You also put a cat eye on me. Which also changed things. I mean, I’m exhausted just from that because it was so transformational.


June Diane Raphael  16:07

Couple quick pieces of admin for our Deep Dive listeners. How Did This Get Made is going on tour. We will be in Chicago on November 8 and ninth and then we’re going to be in Minneapolis on November 10 and November 11, head to For tickets and information. I really hope to see some of you there and also for our listeners if you want to join the Deep Dive Academy as one of our students. In our inaugural founding class, please head to the and use code listener to get 15% off all levels of tuition. We’ve got a lot of incredible stuff coming up for the holidays. We hope to see you there.


Jessica St. Clair  17:05

Bibi is in her sleepover era. I’m in my red lip era Bibi is in her sleep over era. And when I tell you every Saturday night, she’s sleeping over somewhere. She loves to get inside other people’s homes and could be more comfortable. And so you know, she’s she was sleeping over Danielle’s house, you know, for because she and her daughter are best friends. But they do a lot of makeovers. So I went to pick up Bibi and Sydney and her came down and these insane Berets. I mean, Bibi was wearing, like, they dress each other up constantly like dolls. And they’re trying out different versions of themselves with each other. And I said, what we’re doing in the Academy, which is so insane, is that we are at like one gigantically long sleepover that never ends where we’re dressing each other up and we’re trying on different things. And that’s something as an adult you just stop doing.


June Diane Raphael  18:00

You’re so right. Oh, I had so much fun with you as my little doll up there. God it’s so much fun. And the other thing I did must say right now because you’ll see it later. I put your hair up in a bun. Baby I put your hair up in a bun.


Jessica St. Clair  18:17

Top knot a tight top knot almost gave me a facelift. Pull it out.


June Diane Raphael  18:23

Pulls it up. And you know I’ve talked about this before but my The reason why I love I love women and buttons and there’s a specific topic. I’m not talking necessarily about the messy bun look. I’m really not like about I think I think a hair offices. Beautiful ballerina, like bun is stunning. And you know, my mom loved me in a month.


Jessica St. Clair  18:50

I can imagine you look so stunningly fierce in one.


June Diane Raphael  18:55

But I don’t. It’s a hard look to wear.


Jessica St. Clair  19:00

We’ll talk about.


June Diane Raphael  19:00

Without our armor and our hair.


Jessica St. Clair  19:03

My hair is a wig that I wear. Yes, but it’s there’s nothing to protect it. You are also a God this podcast is so shallow as deep as last week’s was at the end. This one is as shallow but as shallow as a Tennessee Lake. You know, it’s not a glacial lake like the New Hampshire lakes. It’s warm, but you are saying to it’s like you throw in a red lip. You actually don’t want that hair down. You want it up? It’s too much. Especially if you’re a blonde. You have to like really titrate these things. I didn’t realize that, you know, it’s all part of it. It’s all a living organism. But boy, is it fun. I would suggest to that, like get your girls over. Get your hot tools out, get your makeup out, get your outfits out and see have that be a nightie.


June Diane Raphael  19:57

Oh, that’s fun. That’s really fun.


Jessica St. Clair  20:00

Use each other as living dolls and see what comes of it because you may be shocked.


June Diane Raphael  20:06

I know and I you know, I, I don’t have daughters and to dress you up like really scratched an itch for me and to say to make you do what I want, it really, it really felt great. Anyway, Jess, just a follow up from last week’s episode. For Deep Divers. I did you know, we talked about me being a volume eater. And I’m going to tell you to be quite honest, Jess as much as we were laughing about in the audio Graham made me laugh so hard that we posted. I definitely had feelings of shame. That came up. I wanted to scrap the whole episode.


Jessica St. Clair  20:44

I had to yeah, and I’ve we’ve been doing Deep Dive long enough to know that when I have that feeling, that’s when I most need to post it. But I wanted to cut it up right up until the last minute. I know that this probably seems crazy to you guys. You’re like, oh my god, it’s fun conversation about volume eater, or you’re a beast I was like, and then what happened? How many DMS did you get from fellow volume eaters.


June Diane Raphael  21:08

The number of women who have come out of the shadows, to join hands with me and stand in solidarity. And say I’m a volume eater too, you know, and I don’t like sharing my food and I don’t, you know, I eat more than others. Like I felt so fucking validated. I felt seen, and I love that word thrown around a lot. I feel seen, I feel seen, I actually felt seen, I was like, I am not. And I texted my friend who you know, she was the one who first brought the term to me and came out of the closet as a volume eater. And I’m so thankful for her because I truly feel less alone in the world.


Jessica St. Clair  21:59

And also people came out as and this is coming out more and more. I’m a volume eater and a beast. But both things, I had a guy who wrote to say, thank you for talking about shame, and that he is doing his thesis on children and shame in education. And looking at how if we can dispel it that how it can help children learn and just like thank you for speaking about it as an adult. But I, I’m still I’m still in it because I’m like it is the antidote to everything pretty much. It’s owning our shame, saying it out loud, is so powerful, it’s the most vulnerable place you could ever be. And so as much as we joke about the volume eating and the beast like behavior and beast mode. That’s what this podcast has done for me is allowed me to come out of the shadows, and share and be heard and unhealed and feel less alone. You know, I am realizing how much shame I have about the way my brain works. So much shame that I won’t even acceptfully that I have this that I have ADHD like I don’t, I won’t accept it. And I and the non acceptance of it is causing a tremendous amount of problems for me.


June Diane Raphael  23:30

But Jess, like so I was just thinking about it this morning. I don’t know why I want to cry right now. But I was like I do too. I hope I hope you know that. I really heard what you said the other day. You told me that when we post our coursework and the Deep Dive Academy like you were said you were having so much trouble posting and it was becoming this like thing. This thing, and there’s something about toggling back and forth check the DMS of our Instagram portal and then take the screen grabs and post it was becoming like a task that for your brain was paralyzing.


Jessica St. Clair  24:05

Yeah, it’s crazy.


June Diane Raphael  24:07

Like I know what I was also like, I can do that.


Jessica St. Clair  24:12

I know. I know. But also like, yes, and I can also do it. I have to show my brain. No, I know. It’s I know, it’s such a hard thing.


June Diane Raphael  24:24

For me though. Possibly there are other things that you can do that are like.


Jessica St. Clair  24:29

Yes, I think that’s such an interesting thing. Because it’s like, at what point do we go like, well, I can continually try to get better at this thing. Or do we say actually, my gift is this because frankly, because there are bigger thinking things that I do so well.


June Diane Raphael  24:47

That’s what I’m saying.


Jessica St. Clair  24:48

Like like, someone’s like, oh come up with like a TV show. I’m like here’s the show I just I just gave you 24 episodes. And it’s it’s easy, breezy, fun. But asked me to know how to balance a checkbook or look at my finances. And when I do that, and I make a mistake, or I’m late on posting something, because it just has been hard for my brain, instead of owning it and saying, like, oh, whoa, I’m sorry, I did that. I have so much shame about it. I tried to say it’s not happening. At or like, no, you’re wrong. Like, no, no, or we just don’t need to do that. Like, that’s an x, that’s stupid. But it’s like, why can’t I just if I just could break the cycle and say, like, God, that’s hard for me, I’m so sorry, that’s hard for me. If I lose my mind, because I it’s such a natural instinct to hide what you’re ashamed of, and to deny it.


June Diane Raphael  25:49

But and also, like, I was thinking, I just want you to know, I really heard that, like, I really heard, like, I was like, oh, fuck, this is causing her like to be in a spiral. And even if it takes 15 minutes, and even if that’s the reality, it’s not really 15 minutes, because it’s, it’s panic before you have to go and do that. And it’s thinking about it. So no, no, though. It’s but it’s not, though it’s not. And what I’m saying to you is like I can we can make an accommodation, I love you to same chemistry.


Jessica St. Clair  26:25

I appreciate that. I appreciate that


June Diane Raphael  26:28

It’s not a reflection on your work ethic. It’s not a reflection. It’s just like, it is a little it’s kind of busy work, actually.


Jessica St. Clair  26:37

And does the work is what breaks me. The busy work.


June Diane Raphael  26:41

I actually think they like it.


Jessica St. Clair  26:43

Well, you all do. Everyone in my life loves a busy work with a Deep Divers who have not been with us forever. One of my dearest friends, Kyle, we’re writing a pilot together and God bless. He likes to type up docs. He loves a doc, he loves Google Doc.


June Diane Raphael  26:59

And yeah, I’m a Google Doc, baby.


Jessica St. Clair  27:01

And I finally said to Carl, I said, Carl, I’m never going to look at these Google Docs until we get on with each other. And it was so hard for me to say that to him, because I didn’t want to let him down. But he was like, okay, cool. Like so if you say 9am, I’m going to know from 9 to 9:15. You’re looking at those docs., maybe I’m sitting there with you. I love him so much.


June Diane Raphael  27:26

I love that man, he’s a great man. They don’t make them like that anymore.


Jessica St. Clair  27:31

No, and I sit down today I said, Carl, I’m sorry, I’m late. I had to cry in the drugstore parking lot. at Walgreens, I had to cry for 10 minutes on the phone with my mom. I’m sorry, I had to get. And he was like, I hear you did you get a chance to look at the Google Doc? But anyway, I don’t know where this is going except to say I’m on a journey. I’m on a journey to accept my shame and because that’s the key to it all. That’s the key to happiness.


June Diane Raphael  28:01

Yeah, and I do think, you know, I was texting a Casey about tight like, time and boundaries around time. And you know, protecting, protecting December is my goal. I want to protect, protect the holidays, I want to protect December because we’re talking about boundaries and like, you know, creating boundaries around time, and it is our most precious commodity.


Jessica St. Clair  28:30

Yeah, it’s not renewable. It’s the only resource that’s non renewable resource. It is.


June Diane Raphael  28:36

Not everybody’s promised it. Sorry, it’s not, we don’t know. And so I realized like I had a big realization where I was like, I think I’m actually pretty good about deciding who in my life I want to see outside of like my family and people that pay me money. Okay, like I’m talking, am I getting paid? If I’m not getting paid that I’m spending time with my family, and my family actually I am including my sisters, am I in loss in that? Okay. Beyond that I have right now. 123457 people on the docket that I want to spend time with outside and that’s tough to say. But a lot fuckin true. It is a lot actually. Because I have like those that’s the amount of people that I want to schedule things with and dinners and etc. If you didn’t make the cut, you did Jess, don’t worry. But I also like a sort of have you in multiple different buckets but if you didn’t make the cut, like, that’s this season of my life. And maybe in another season, we’ll have more time. But in this season there’s seven people. And that’s honestly I got one night a week where I’m really willing to, like socialize. Other than that, that’s it, no pickleball, Sunday and my other community gathering is that my children are involved. That’s a different bucket. But solo without the kids, that’s one night. And that’s from that seven person roster.


Jessica St. Clair  30:31

I love that. Well, this is going back to when you used to make your seating chart at school in third grade.


June Diane Raphael  30:57

For the Deep Divers who don’t know, you know, I don’t remember those desks where you would lift up the desk, your stuff would be inside. I had, I had so many girls that wanted to play with me at lunch.


Jessica St. Clair  31:12

I told the new listeners I know for new listeners, I worry. They’re like, self confidence of the one host and the lack of self confidence and the other it’s a wild ride. But it’s just true, and I hope you understand that like that’s always been June, we want to be with her. We want to hear her stories.


June Diane Raphael  31:29

And I knew that at a young age that I was you that I was going to have to be like a benevolent leader in my class.


Jessica St. Clair  31:41



June Diane Raphael  31:42

Yeah. And I did carry that in second grade. I’m sorry. I did. I’ve that’s always been me. But you know what, actually, I think I had like, put this together the other day where I had a teacher and her name was Miss Williams and I and she was my second grade teacher actually. And I believe she changed my life because she gave me student of the week, my first week of school. And she changed my identity as in the way I saw myself as a student and a learner and a leader. And I was like I’m stupid. There was no such thing I had heard a student of the week before. And this is the first time I’m hearing you can even be student of the week and I am student of the week this and I believe single hand it was a game changer it was like she set me on the course that I continued to [..] I was also homecoming queen. You know.


Jessica St. Clair  32:43

I and lost another couple followers now, listeners.


June Diane Raphael  32:48

I hope not. Because, you know, we must also like people who say they want confidence and stuff. But it’s like, but can you sit? Can you sit and other people’s confidence and self love? It’s like it that is actually like very, you know, but I definitely saw I was like I am student of the week. And that’s who the fuck I am. And I’ve held myself like that for the rest honestly, to this day. To this day.


Jessica St. Clair  33:24

Also I will say, you came from a house that was had some chaos going on, where maybe you weren’t quite sure where the pencils were coming from and the pencil case. And so but I think this teacher saw in you that this was somebody who actually could step into her academic life and organization, and she gave you that identity. And I think also it was you change the thinking so our thoughts, create our feelings, create our actions. And so you started to think of yourself differently. And that created a different way of behaving.


June Diane Raphael  34:04

You know, and then yes, so I say all of this I don’t know why the photo saying this. Oh, but I had my yeah, I had my schedule because I knew the girls were the girls were female, they were fighting over who got to play with me and I, they wanted one on one time. So I had to make a calendar on looseleaf and tape it and then I’d write I’d write their names. Because I wanted to keep it.


June Diane Raphael  34:27

This is so crazy. I wish we had a photo of this.


June Diane Raphael  34:29

God I know, I will post a photo. I know I have a photo of me and Miss Williams I will post that picture because we also dressed in the same magenta skirt and shirt on picture day. And she turned to me and said we’re twins. And I’ll never forget that moment. I was in love with my teachers. I mean, I was in love with them. I was like we’re twins. I was just so so blown away. Anyway, all of this is to say our time Jess and that’s why I know you keep on going back to it’s fucking 15 minutes but it ain’t 15 minute It’s, it’s a lifetime, it’s a fucking lifetime. And we have to at the ripe age we are acknowledged like how we react to certain skill, like what our skill sets are?


Jessica St. Clair  35:13

Well, I keep thinking about if we were in the, you know, cave people, if we were hunters and gatherers, and we were raising our children and our communities the way we we were meant to, we would have a group of women, and it would be like, okay, June is great at scheduling. who’s doing what? Who’s shelling the peas? Who’s making the Heinz soft? Who you know, who’s breastfeeding? You know what I mean? I think I probably would be on more big picture. Where are we moving next? What’s a great year and gathering ground? Okay, what’s what are people feeling? You know, are we feeling coastal? Are we feeling seafood? Are we feeling you know, more of a mountain vibe? Okay. I’m thinking forward. I’m thinking big picture, right? I think Lennon for sure, is managing the births. You know […]


June Diane Raphael  36:18

She’s a midwife, even though she’s not.


Jessica St. Clair  36:20

it’s crazy. You know, she loved birthing class.


June Diane Raphael  36:24

Of course she did. And I didn’t find her I would have trusted her. Knowing she has not taken like a single class on how to actually deliver babies. I would have trusted her to deliver my children. Like really? 1000 for son. I really would have.


Jessica St. Clair  36:38

I told you the story about the girl. Did I ever tell this other pack? I probably did. This woman I’m standing with she had four kids was in preschool. And I said, the fourth I go, but that thing just fell right out to you. And she goes actually did. Pleases three, she went for her a walk around our neighborhood in the moonlight. And all of a sudden she was with her husband. She went, it’s coming out of me and it’s head, was out of Her. And the husband had to leave her standing on someone’s front yard and go run and get the car. And the baby continued to come out in the moonlight on someone’s front yard. He pulled the car around. She pulled into the hospital with it out.


June Diane Raphael  37:34

Oh my god.


Jessica St. Clair  37:35

It just said the baby’s out of beat. And she said that I have to live with that memory of just a baby falling out of me. And I never saw this woman again. I said that is the wildest story I’ve ever heard while we’re passing out cupcakes for like, I was like, Oh my God.


June Diane Raphael  37:58

This happened, listen, Brooklyn Decker had the end of I think the first season of Grace and Frankie like she was her character is pregnant. She had a baby in her sweatpants. And it was based on someone our writer knew who maybe it was the same woman but like it happened. She was like, what are the babies my sweats, you know? I also think part of the panic you and I are having about like our workflow and the academy work that we do and how it’s all gonna get done as knowing like, we aren’t necessarily going to be taking a leave and she does a lot of admins. So I think there’s a looming question.


Jessica St. Clair  38:38

Yeah, yeah. No, she’s leaving for a time and we’re going to be left on our own on the plains, you know.


June Diane Raphael  38:45

And that’s scary like one of the elder tribes women is walking away for a bit she’s going on a journey. She is, she’s going on a journey and we have to tend to the fire we have to and there’s just ,yeah, so I think that there’s a there’s a low level anxiety that we’re probably both feeling about just like what happens.


Jessica St. Clair  39:09

Yeah, and I’m so that’s where I’m where I’m sitting right now is like we want progress in terms of like there are ways we can work with our brains and learn new things. You know, they used to think that we couldn’t make neural connections, new ones as we got older, that like those grooves are there and you’re done. Turns out you can. You can learn every day, but it’s takes it takes work. And sometimes we can go this one I’m not going to like we don’t need to worry about that one. But I am excited also like I have a planner now that is working for me, written planner that I finally found that I enjoy working with and so I want to, I want to see what I can do but also not have shame when it doesn’t work.


June Diane Raphael  40:00

I understand. I mean, listen, the shame I feel around volume. Like, like, this is where and I’m not sure if this is the same for you and why that particular task, which is busy, let’s call it what it is. It’s busy work, right?


Jessica St. Clair  40:17

This isn’t sort of like high level thinking, is it? I don’t think so. No, it’s busy, work busy work, cutting and pasting, cutting and pasting.


June Diane Raphael  40:21

Like there’s a lot of toggling that’s involved. There’s going from one tab to another there is a certain amount of, but ultimately, it’s busy. I feel that sometimes what can happen to me in terms of volume meaning I don’t know if it’s the case for you is I’m like, Why is everybody else full before? If that’s right, why differently not feeling that this hole is like not never satiated? Like I am, so that’s where also shame comes from. Like, it’s easier for others. Why?


Jessica St. Clair  41:03

Why is it hard for me?


June Diane Raphael  41:05

Yes, what’s wrong with leave food on the plate? Even if like and that’s the thing you know, what’s really shameful is even if I’m not like loving it, I’m gonna fucking finish it. You know, I owe this story. But I got I had food poisoning from an aoli that went bad and tuna salad sandwich when I was at Sundance for the first time. And I was at a very nice restaurant at lunch. And I this is, this is where volume eating goes wrong. And I was starving, and I ate I took one bite, and I thought that’s off. And then I ate the whole thing because I’m a volume eater, and we don’t know another way to be, you know, we don’t know another way. And then I was sitting next to Paul and his manager at the time. And you know, it was a real sort of like, who’s Who of our industry was at that restaurant? And I, we were at about Bin cat and I said, I have to put my head down immediately he goes what? And I said, I feel so tired. This one that came on and then I put my head down on the banquette and he says, you have to get up and then it hit me. And I said, Paul, I have to go to the bathroom. To that restaurant I was holding Jessica I was holding off to people’s heads trying to get their remember like feeling a man’s gray hair and my brittles grazie. Yes. And I said, Where’s your bathroom? I could barely speak. They said, it’s downstairs, I ran downstairs, I got one stall open, I projectile vomited and shot my pants at the same time. I vomited for so long that I couldn’t breathe. Okay, like the girth of a Diet Coke cam in my mouth, a vomit and a same type shit. I can’t sorry, but oh my God, would that have happened had I not eaten the whole thing. Like if I had just taken a bite like a normal person and stopped. That’s, that’s a volume eater for you. That’s that’s where you know, we can really, that’s a bad case of volume eating. But, you know, I’m at a point in my life where I’m like, I think I need more food than others. And that’s who I am. And to know there’s so many other people like me, there’s so many people like you Jess, who are paralyzed by those types of tasks. And it’s not a fucking moral deficit.


Jessica St. Clair  43:43

I know and you’re saying these words and yet I don’t fully believe them yet. Remember, I haven’t had a hot dog yet and.


June Diane Raphael  43:55

Deep Divers who are new just a quick primer we talked about my son was really working on like, in his kindergarten class having a growth mindset. And that his presentation, they all had to lift up, their drawing, and they all had to say you know, I don’t know how to ride a bike yet. I don’t know how to drive a car yet. I don’t know how to read a chapter book yet. And then it got to Sam and he said I don’t know what a hot dog tastes like yet.


Jessica St. Clair  44:30

It’s always been good with a one liner that kid he’s so.


June Diane Raphael  44:33

So yeah, you don’t know what a hot dog tastes like yet.


Jessica St. Clair  44:37

And that’s I also said, I was on the phone with this this coach this ADHD coach I came caught from I got some from an app. I don’t know where this woman was, but she was my age. And she said what is the monologue that you say to yourself and I say, I say I’m broken, I’m broken person that doesn’t do these things well, and I’ll never get to do them well, and I’m done. I just fuckup everything. And she said, I want you to think about the fact that that monologue, you are saying to a little girl, that you’re saying that to your little girl self, you’re saying your broken, fucked up person that fucks up, and you’re never gonna get it. You would never say that to a little girl. She said, don’t say that to yourself and I said, well, I feel like that sometimes when she said, guess what, you’re already doing it. You’re already on your way. And I just was like, tears running down my face. I’m like, thank you, you know, sometimes you need a stranger to say like you’re already doing it.


June Diane Raphael  45:42

Yeah, and the incident is you need to pay good money. Yeah, no, it’s almost $2 an hour to hear someone say. Like, you don’t know what a hotdog tastes like yet? Like, I’ll pay good money for someone to say that to me. Good money, oh Jess. We’re doing it just tell you we’re doing it. We’re doing it. We’re doing it. We there’s one thing I’ll just tell you. Oh, this is related, to what we’ve been talking about. I ran into someone last night, an actress that we know. And she is over 50 and we were talking about our experience of like, not working for the last, you know, since May, and what it’s been like, and then the pandemic and like the triggering feelings around it. And she said, I said to her Zinio, honestly, they have been like, really, I’ve had some real depression just about feeling like as a woman in our industry. This is like, these are the years and I feel like I haven’t been able to capitalize on them. And I feel they’re slipping away from me. And I’ve I’m feeling grief over like this time and not being able to like, share my creativity in a way that if I want to and like, will I ever get a chance? Will I ever get to play Mama Rose, you know, will I ever get to, like, you know, all of this stuff. And also like aging, and it’s just like, there’s a grief in aging, too. And again, they feel like I’m working out an hour a day to stay 10 pounds overweight. And I’m like what the fuck? You know, we’ve talked about this before, what the fuck. And she’s like, she said something she really helped me last night was such a beautiful conversation. And this is just like the power of women and I just love women so much. And the way we can kind of connect, it’s just remained so beautiful to me but she said, you know, she’s like, we have got she goes, I’m gonna tell you right now. We are aging, and you’re going to continue to age. And the quicker we can accept that that’s happening and that we’re going to look older, not gonna look the same. I and it’s hard for us Jess, because we’ve never looked better. So this is like this, this conversation both relates and doesn’t relate to us. But and that’s true. It’s like we’ve never looked better. But she was like, we can’t at a certain point we’re going to wake up every morning and feel badly, if we continue to push ourselves or or this vision of ourselves in our heads, and then we don’t see it back. And it’s like then, as opposed to saying like, oh, this too. This is who I am […] I am great. She’s like and I really feel that the narrative around women in Hollywood and that the roles diminish and work diminishes in the scarcity mindset. She’s like, I we must deprogram that it’s not true. And it’s used against us to keep us in our fucking place.


June Diane Raphael  49:21

Yes. Wow. Wow. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.


June Diane Raphael  49:29

Yep, and I was like, god dammit. Yeah. Yeah. And I just like she reframed something for me. Where I was like, fuck it and she’s like, I understand the grief of this time like we haven’t been able to get out there. Yes, you’re this age. You want to be you want to play the part you want to play you and but also like, we’re going to continue to have a lot to offer and let’s fucking let go of that idea, that we don’t get to do things anymore.


Jessica St. Clair  50:03

Because we’re even more interesting now. Like you’re at the top of your game, when Amy Poehler whose company is producing my movie that I wrote with Lenin, where we battle the mafia, as moms. I look at Amy Poehler in this group of fierce women she has created and I’m like, whoa, okay, okay. So you so you have that career where you’re a fucking comedy queen, then you go and you start producing as a boss. And you’re one of the nicest people in the world. So, okay, so you win, so here’s to I have modeled my whole career after wanting to be like her Julia Louis Dreyfus, same thing, and they just continue to get more interesting, better, better, better and better. Go listen to Dr. Sheila.


June Diane Raphael  50:56

About to say you mean, you mean Dr. Sheila?


Jessica St. Clair  51:02

Who knows if she’s a doctor or not.


June Diane Raphael  51:05

You cannot say Dr. Sheila, you have to say Dr. Sheila. Please go listen to it. It’s such a joy. Jessica did an episode I did an episode.


Jessica St. Clair  51:13

She’s so goddamn brilliant. But yeah, so anyway, it just was like really I was, what moved me more than the information although it I took it in? Was her coming to collect me and say stop. You have a choice psyche? And also to say like, yeah, you’re aging. I’m aging to we’re all aging and yeah, and it takes that time and looks like the.


June Diane Raphael  51:43

The lads how the patriarchy wants to keep you.


Jessica St. Clair  51:47

Because I don’t hear that conversation with men. I hear them getting hotter and hotter. I hear them getting more and more like Clooney. Hugh Laurie, hottest fucking man in the world. Smartest, most interesting, funniest man in the world. Gets, gets more and more every year.


June Diane Raphael  52:06

I know, Yeah.


Jessica St. Clair  52:11

We are student of the week. We are even more student of the week now than we were. I said to Amy and having listened to Dr. Sheila, Dr. Sheila. I said and this is gonna be embarrassing to say but I said you know what I was thinking during those episodes. I thought boy, are we good at our fucking jobs, boy, are we good? boy have we worked our fucking asses off in the basements of the Gristedes supermarket. Boy have we put in our hours and boy, are we good at our jobs? That’s what I thought. So I may not know how to balance my checkbook. But I sure as fuck know how to improvise to.


June Diane Raphael  52:53

Master your craft. Yes. You’re a master of your craft.


Jessica St. Clair  52:58

Yeah, and I’m a good fucking mom. So come at me and and the words of screaming, fuck around and find out.


June Diane Raphael  53:08

Deep Divers, we will see you next week. Bye guys.


CREDITS  53:49

The DEEP DIVE is produced by Lemonada media Jessica St. Clair and June Diane Raphael. Our producers Ana Cecilia, our associate producer is Dani Matias and ours supervising producer is Jamela Zarha Williams our engineer is Johnny Vince Evans. Additional Lemonada support from Steve Nelson, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Special thanks to Anne Geddes for a cover art and Lennon Parham. For her sweet sweet vocals. The best way to support us is to rate and review. Follow The Deep Dive wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.

Spoil Your Inbox

Pods, news, special deals… oh my.