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When there’s a fire, you can do one of three things: run away, stand and watch, or run toward the flames. Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer has spent her career running toward the flames. Most recently, she went to Washington to ask President Trump for aid after an historic ice storm hit northern Michigan – and ended up, as The New York Times put it, “an unwilling participant in his unending reality show.” But she did it because the people of Michigan needed her to stay and get the help they needed. Reshma also asks the Governor about getting called “that woman from Michigan,” her decision to share that she was sexually assaulted in college, navigating a divorce, and if she has any plans for 2026 when her term is up.

Follow Governor Whitmer on Instagram @truegretchwhitmer and on X @truegretch. Check out her book, True Gretch, which also has a YA edition.

You can follow our host Reshma Saujani @reshmasaujani on Instagram.

Let us know how you’re doing in midlife! You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife

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To follow along with a transcript, go to lemonadamedia.com/show/ shortly after the air date.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Reshma Saujani, Speaker 1

Reshma Saujani  01:15

Welcome to My So Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I’m Reshma Saujani. So you know, I’m always looking to talk to women who have that thing, that unshakable confidence, that crystal clear sense of self. What I like to call it is I like women who have swag, because so many of us were raised to shrink ourselves. From the minute we’re born, we’re told to make everyone else comfortable. Don’t be too loud, too ambitious, don’t be too much. And I really believe that one of the keys to midlife is literally unlearning all of that and stepping into who we really are. That’s why I wanted to talk to Governor Gretchen Whitmer. To me, she is the definition of swag. Her new book True Gretch is full of hard won wisdom about what it means to lead fight and just keep going, especially when the heat is on. We talk about how to live out some of those lessons in real time, and do it under a magnifying glass, whether it’s leading Michigan through the pandemic, a kidnapping attempt. Yes, a kidnapping attempt, someone literally tried to kidnap her managing a natural disaster that knocked out 1000s of power lines, or that visit to the White House. You know what I’m talking about. We actually talked about it on this pod and made a little bit of news. You’ll hear about that later. So to me, what makes her so compelling, it’s not just about what she faced, it’s about how it shaped her into the woman she is. Long before she was big Gretch, she was just a young mom balancing diapers and campaigns while caring for her dying mother. I know a lot of you mid lifers who are part of our community, you can relate to that. That is where her grit was built. It forged in the flames. This conversation is not about politics. It’s about showing up for yourself. It’s about doing the brave thing, even when it’s not easy or the popular choice. It’s about teaching you how to be brave, how to literally run into the fire. As Gretchen says, when there’s a fire, you can do one of three things. You can run away, stand and watch, or run toward the flames. We’re running toward the flames, baby, let’s go.

 

Reshma Saujani  03:43

Governor Whitmer on this show, we talk a lot about midlife mindset and how it varies for everyone. And some people are like, fuck yeah, best time of my life. And some people are like, uh, take me back to my 20s. Like, where do you land? And like, I guess, what are the words you would use, like, to describe this period of your life.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  04:01

Oh, wow. I think a lot of growth. To be honest, I actually wouldn’t want to go back to my 20s. I look at my kids who are in their 20s, and today’s day and age, and it’s just such a totally different experience. So I’m grateful to be, you know, in my mid Well, I’m 53 and you know, I’ve learned a lot, and I feel like I’m I’m really owning my space in a way that I what didn’t feel like I could when I was in my 20s.

 

Speaker 1  04:31

I know so many people say that, like, what happened, and did that happen when you turned 50, that you felt this whole like I’m owning my space.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  04:40

I just think it’s gonna get battle tested, right? Like it’s, it’s a part of life that you’ve been through. You know, I went through marriage and having kids and caring for a sick parent and getting divorced, and, you know, I’ve had all these personal challenges. And I think I’m really I know who I am like, and I also know I’m not going to. It forever. So I’m getting better at deciding how I spend my time and energy.

 

Speaker 1  05:06

Yeah, and that must be hard for you, because, like, I feel like in politics, you’re going from one thing to next thing to next thing to next thing, right? And so much if I know what I try to do in this moment is just like, be in the moment. But it’s must that like that is just like an oxymoron. I feel like, if you’re a public servant.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  05:22

It is hard. I mean, you know, every I feel like every waking minute of my day is is already designed for me, and so trying to look forward. And I’m a planner. My dad always used to say, if you fail the plan you plan to fail. And so, like, I am a planner, I gotta know when my next break is. I gotta know what’s on deck for the next, you know, seven days so I can plan my meals. You know, pack my meals. I pack my lunch, all of that jazz. But so what I love about my life is nowadays the same as the last. What is challenging about my life is unpredictable, but I do try to stay in the moment. I got to remind myself to do that.

 

Speaker 1  06:05

So I want to talk about politics. So you, I loved your book. We’re going to get to it in a second. But you come basically from a family of public servants. So what you struggle most when you started? So I ran for office, and I distinctly remember I was sitting on the train, and I was on my way to a senior senator, and I was having like, a full on panic attack, because when you run for office for the first time, especially, like you’ve never done any of these things before, and everything is like so scary. It’s like jumping off a ledge, like every step, I’m sure now you’re you know, you got it, but when you started, were you that scared, too?

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  06:44

Oh, yeah. And, you know, it’s funny, my mom was one of the top people in the Attorney General’s office here in Michigan, and I remember, you know, she was in her 50s, and she was this incredibly accomplished person, and she’s a real badass, and was, like, one of the few people in the Executive Office of the Attorney General and great lawyer, and she confessed to me that she feels like one day someone’s going to come in there and realize she doesn’t know, like she shouldn’t be there. You know, she had the imposter syndrome. And I think, I think, you know, I love that quote from Eleanor Roosevelt, I think, is that she said, do something that scares you every single day, and you get stronger when you do that. And I think that’s what running for office really requires.

 

Speaker 1  07:32

It’s so true like every day is like terrifying. So what’s your favorite part of being a politician? Is it the fact that, like every day terrifies you?

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  07:43

I definitely am a little bit of an adrenaline junkie. I mean, I think that that’s a that’s good, but my favorite part is people. I love people.

 

Reshma Saujani  07:51

I could tell that reading your book, you just you love talking to people.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  07:54

I do. I love people are fascinating. And, you know, if you ask a couple questions, you can learn a lot about someone, and I just, I’ve learned a lot, but the joy I get comes from people, whether it’s helping people or working together with people, or even, you know, debating people, it is we’re all on equal footing on that regard. And I think that’s really humbling, but also exciting.

 

Speaker 1  08:21

Can I ask you? Let me do you think that people have changed? And this is a weird question to ask you. So my parents came here as refugees, and I always think about the fact that, like when they came here, my mother was pregnant, they had $10 in their pockets, and they were taken in by the Catholic Church. They were fed, right? They were housed like it didn’t matter that they were a different religion, a different skin color, it didn’t speak the language people took them in, right? And that sense of like Love thy neighbor, in this moment where it feels like we’re so divided and there’s so so much, and I get it like people are just they can’t afford basic things, and it makes you angry. Do you think people have changed in your 25 years in politics?

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  09:02

I think so, yeah. And I wish I could say for the better, but I don’t, I don’t think so. I think one of the things that really is so challenging right now is I think we’re really quick to attribute the worst, you know, the worst assumptions about anyone and everything, as opposed to giving people the benefit of the doubt, which is how I was raised, like, if someone does something that doesn’t quite compute, give them the benefit of doubt. They know something you don’t know, or they’re experiencing something you don’t experience. And now it’s like, if they do something you can’t explain, then you just assume the absolute worst. They are evil, or, that’s right, corrupt and and I think that part, I really grapple with that a lot, because I’m always challenging myself to try to create a, you know, a scenario in my head that explains someone’s behavior. Right? When my mom was dying of brain cancer, I talk about this in the book, you know, I was taking care of my newborn and my mom at the end of her life. Eighth, you know, sandwich generation, at the age of 30. And there was a pamphlet that the hospice folks left behind, and it was a guy who was really had six wild kids on a subway. They were irritating everyone else on the subway. They were running wild. And this lady was just about to give the dad a piece of her mind when he turned to her and said, my wife just died, and I don’t know how I’m going to raise these kids without her. And I think about that a lot, because I’m always trying to remember to give someone the benefit out to seek to understand, not to cast everyone as a jerk or insensitive or selfish, you know, like maybe something’s really going on there. And I think that’s why I try to listen to people a lot and ask questions.

 

Speaker 1  10:45

It’s funny you say that, I think I really became that way, especially when I became a mother, because you’re just, like, you just don’t know what people are going through, right? Like, you don’t know what’s going on with them. Let’s, let’s talk about caregiving leadership before we get your book. Like, so you know, in your first term in the house, like you said, You gave birth to your first daughter, and your mom is sick and she’s dying, and you’re part of the sandwich generation. How was that experience like? How did it shape you? And what’s your advice to people right now? Because honestly, a lot of our listeners are kind of similarly going through the same thing, right, where they’re potentially taking care of little ones, and their parents have cancer or they’re sick, or, like, they have diabetes and like, it’s a lot to manage.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  11:30

It’s hard, you know, I of all the ups and downs that I’ve had in public office, Nothing even comes close to that period of time when I was taking care of mom. Had gave birth to Sherry, my oldest daughter. I’d started a new job. I was, you know, newly married as well. They say the five most stressful things in your life are the the a marriage, a birth, a death of a loved one, moving your home and starting a new job. And I did all those in one year, and yet it, it forged who I am. You know, I it helped me figure out how to look 10 yards ahead, as opposed to get overwhelmed by the 100 yards right, to figure out how do you get the next first down, as opposed to how do you get into the end zone? And in that way, it helped me manage. But it also, I think, taught me a lot about myself, about what I’m capable of, you know, arguing with my mom’s health insurer to cover her chemo when they wrongfully denied her, trying to find daycare for my my newborn, or nurse her. Keep nursing her, and go back to work in a place where everyone says you got a nurse, but no one gives you a lactation room, right? So I think that period of my life really forged who I am today. And it’s how I can handle all the craziness of my job. Because you go through that, you can handle anything.

 

Speaker 1  12:51

How did you not give up? Because you could have just said, You know what? Fuck it like this politics thing right now is like, not, it’s not the right time. Like there’s just too much going on. I need to focus on that.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  13:00

You know, I there. I think there were moments where I thought, What is this worth it? What am I doing? You know, when I ran for reelection as governor, a lot of people said why? They threatened to kill you, kidnapped and kill you. You’ve had a pandemic to deal with. You had racial justice demonstrations and George Floyd’s death, 32 recall attempts. You had a like flooding of Midland where you had to evacuate people like it was crazy. And people say, why do you want to do this again? Why do you want to sign up again and ask for us to vote for you again? And it really comes down to, you know, I love what I do. I feel really lucky to be here. I’ve been on the hardest day, but I think I get that perspective because of the fire I walked through earlier in life.

 

Reshma Saujani  20:09

I want to talk about your book. So what I loved, like, your book, I literally read it in like an hour, yeah, and it was like, it’s like a phenomenal like, beach read. And there’s so many, like, tangible things. I mean, there’s so many stories that just still stick with me. Like, why’d you write it this way? Because, like, you read a lot of political memoirs in there, oh my god. Like, I put them down, right? It’s like, it’s too much, but you wrote it, you know, it’s funny. You didn’t, you didn’t write it. This is mine. You didn’t write it because you were trying to, like, run for something. You really wrote it, like, as a gift to the people that you’ve met across, you know, these 25 years to say this is what I’ve learned, and hear your stories.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  20:43

I’m glad. That’s how you took it. That’s how I meant it. You know, the questions that I would get asked frequently is, why do you still feel optimistic? How are you say positive? How did you get through all of this? And so I kept thinking, you know, if there are a few 10 lessons I’ve learned in my life that might help someone else who’s carrying a heavy load now, or maybe they just even get a laugh at my expense. You know, it’s not all flattering. I tell some pretty, you know, unflattering truths about my experience. But you know, I’m human, and I think if you can get something useful out of this, that’s what it was all about. I knew last year would be a heavy year with the presidential I had no idea, you know, that we would be going into, you know, what’s going to be a prolonged, heavy time, but that’s why I put it out there. So if you get a laugh at my expense, or there’s a lesson that I learned that can be useful then that’s I’ve done some good here. That’s what it’s all about.

 

Speaker 1  21:38

So one of the chapters that really inspired me was called, run toward the fire. And like, even like the mental image alone, I’m like, wow, and spending some time with you, like you are a lady who runs through the fire, toward the fire. And I love this metaphor, not just for leadership, but for resilience. Can you tell me about a recent example where you had to run toward the fire.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  22:02

Sure, I’ve got one very reason, actually. So, you know, two weeks ago, we had a horrendous ice storm in northern Michigan. If you get a quarter inch of ice, it is a catastrophe. We had an inch and a half of ice in some places like it snapped utility poles and half, 3500 utility poles snapped in half. You and I are talking it’s about 15 days since the since the first ice storm happened, and then, like, four days into it, another one came through, 15 days and we still have 5500 people that don’t have power. I mean, that that’s how serious it is, and how scary. And so, you know, I went up and toured the area, and I decided just, you know, last week, I called the president and said, I’m going to need some help, and I want to come in and tell you about this. By the way, I also wanted to talk about tariffs and, uh, air, you know, Air National Guard Base. But he said, Okay, come on over. So I went to DC this past week to go meet with the President about this. And they brought me in, not into a meeting, a one on one meeting, which is what I thought I was going for, but into a press conference that was about a bunch of stuff that I don’t agree with. And I was kind of, what do you do? Do you make a scene? Well, that doesn’t help the people of Michigan. Do you walk out? That doesn’t help the people of Michigan? So I stood there, I walked out briefly to talk to my staffers, and walked back in and then had my meeting. But I’ve gotten a lot of heat for it. I had to ask for help for the people of Michigan and public service, the way I was taught public service from both my parents is you take an oath to put the people’s interests above your own. And so while maybe I’m going to pay a price for that, I was doing the right thing for Michigan.

 

Speaker 1  23:44

Well, you shouldn’t have to pay a price for it, because you’re as an executive, you’re elected to help the people, right? And no matter what that, no matter I mean, quite frankly, like, you’ve had some history with our president.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  23:57

Oh, yeah. You know, I one of my favorite nicknames that woman from Michigan was bestowed on women.

 

Speaker 1  24:05

Not with love, no. And I know you, you don’t mess around so, like, and so for you, it’s like, even to just go there when someone has just, you know, the woman from Michigan, I mean, there was a kidnapping attempt on your life, yep, and you went there for the people, because that’s what you’re elected to do.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  24:28

And, you know, I think, fortunately, I think the people in Michigan know that about me. And so I I’ve gotten, you know, some talking heads in Washington, DC, you know, have all sorts of opinions. But, you know, I went to a big meeting earlier, and people were just coming out of the woodwork. Thank you. We know that wasn’t where you had planned to be, but you were there for us, you know, and I that’s all that matters.

 

Speaker 1  24:51

Yeah, what has this experience taught you, though about leadership or about like, you’ve learned a lot. Did this teach you anything?

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  24:59

Oh, yeah, well. And, you know, it was funny, because I went back to the book at true Gretchen. I think that there’s, there are a lot of things that I have acknowledged in that book, lessons that are are applicable still every day in my life. And it, you know, number one, I’m going to find the humor where I can. I spoke to the Economic Club in Detroit this morning, and they mentioned it, and I put my folder up in front of my face, and everyone thought that was hilarious.

 

Reshma Saujani  25:26

I thought it was super funny too.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  25:28

You know, you gotta laugh. I, you know, if I, if I could do some things differently and had a time machine, I’d use that time machine for sure, on many occasions in my life. But that doesn’t exist. So I’m, I am just going to muster on and try to be the happy warrior.

 

Speaker 1  25:44

Yeah, I mean, listen, I also think it’s like, you know, this is also about courage and about we’re experiencing this, you know, with childcare. It’s like, There are moms across the country that are suffering, parents across the country that are suffering. And like, we don’t get the luxury of just doing things and working with people that we want to work with, right of doing it on our own terms, because that is not what we’re here to do and what you’re here to serve. You’re here to, like, get shit done, which is, I know, your favorite phrase, and that means that you often have to work with people who may not be kind or respectful you aiming to you. And I think that’s, that’s what you’re elected to do. What do you think are some of the signs of a good leader? And how do you allow yourself, like, what do you do when you don’t always meet those expectations?

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  26:30

Well, you know, I think science of a good leader, I mean having moral and real clarity on on what you are setting out to do, what your job is, who you serve. I think that’s really important, surrounding yourself with great people. Oh my gosh, I could not do this job without an army of wonderful, smart, talented, diverse people who have different perspectives and who have different ideas and see things differently. Like that’s helped me, whether it’s, you know, getting my state through the polar vortex early on in my time, or just getting through the last week, frankly, it is. Those are really important. And you know, I I’m a human. I do fall short, and I try not to beat myself up too much, but I am a woman raised in American society. And so there’s always that that voice about, how do we manage through this, or do better or improve? And I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. I think it drives me to be better and to to learn things whenever there are mistakes.

 

Speaker 1  27:36

I want to talk about swag, because I think one of the things that you have, which is a big part of your appeal, and I know why a lot of, quite frankly, people, just love you is your swagger. And I think for a lot of women, they don’t feel comfortable owning that swag, quite frankly, because we’re told and we’re conditioned to, like, make ourselves small and, like, apologize and don’t take up space and don’t be too loud and don’t be so confident, because if you do, then you’ll seem like you’re arrogant. And one of the things that I’ve really taken away from your book and just getting to know you a little bit is that you have not fallen for that calm, you know, you have swag. Talk to me about how you learned that, Were you always this way? Or is this something that you also feel like has come with midlife?

 

Reshma Saujani  28:19

Oh, I think, I think it’s come with changing times and more badass women owning their space. And I think with experience with years, you know, I marvel at my kids. They’re in their 20s, and they would not put up with half the BS that I had to put up with. And then I did put up with when I was my 20s, you know, I think about, you know, when people say, oh, you know, show up as you are. It took me a little while to figure out how to do that comfortably and confidently. I am grateful that there are people like Hillary Clinton and Jennifer Granholm, who was the first woman governor in Michigan, who came before me and kind of walked through the fire and made it easier for me to throw on a leather jacket and go do a press conference when you know there’s a kidnapping and murder plot. So I’m thinking about, how do I make sure that I’ve I’ve made a better path for whomever comes next? Because I’m so grateful that other women who didn’t feel as liberated as I do made it easier for me to show up as I am.

 

Speaker 1  34:34

I want to talk about age, and whether the older you’ve gotten that that’s changed the way you perceived your work. You know, I’m thinking of Don Lemon, right? When he said that Nikki Haley was past her prime, right? And he said, Nikki Haley, you know when, sorry, when a woman is considered to be in her prime, she’s in her 20s and 30s, and maybe her 40s. Nikki Haley isn’t in her prime.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  35:36

I remember where I was when I saw that. I actually had CNN on when he said it, and I mean, I’m almost, I think she and I were like, within a year apart, you know, so I took that very personally, understandably, I was so angry on her behalf. Because, you know, I mean, you think about how much longer we live than men, how much more experience we accumulate than men. I just thought that that was the most ridiculous thing I ever heard, because even though my politics are very different than hers, she deserves respect.

 

Speaker 1  36:10

Yeah, sure, and listen, unfortunately, there’s some real consequences of his belief. And his beliefs are common, because, you know, the largest, I didn’t know this governor, but the largest gender pay gap is for women above the age of 50, but it’s really, there’s this real kind of, like, data driven discrimination that’s really popped up, that it’s just we perceive women, especially in their 50s, as, Oh, can’t hire them. There’s just, you know, they’re gonna have too many caregiving responsibilities, and then they’re gonna hit menopause. So just forget about it.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  36:41

It’s so funny. I love that we’re actually talking about menopause. Again, I was going to ask you about you can see we’re we’re on a podcast, but you can see my gray hair right now. I’ve decided I’m done dying it. I’m embracing the silver but you know, it’s absolutely wrong. I gotta tell you, I I feel more engaged than I’ve ever felt. I feel more energized. You know, yeah, it’s not always, you know, menopausing for the week, but it makes you stronger. And I think that, you know, it’s interesting the I Want to learn more about what you just said about that the wage gap, I wonder if it’s also a generational thing, because we’re more, I think, mindful of helping younger women negotiate and demand and expect, and maybe women in my generation, definitely women in my generation didn’t have that same level of empowerment and training and support. So I hope maybe that that gap will decrease over time.

 

Reshma Saujani  37:41

I mean, well, I think it’s the fact that we’re having a conversation. Look, I think it’s a lot of things I do think that you know, if you’re suffering through real menopause systems, the anxiety, the hot flashes, like you don’t know when they’re coming, right? And so part of it is just there’s a real health issue that you’re facing, and like, there’s no research on it. There’s no support for and so I think the the importance of continuing to invest in women’s health, especially in menopause, is really important, because it is a real driver for women leaving the workforce. And I think people are really, there’s a lot of progress being made. You’re seeing menopause benefits, you know, entering the conversation on HR benefits. And so that’s, you know, I think that that’s really happening. But I think that’s right. I just, I think we have to pay more attention, right? The fact of like, is there, you know, is there really a gap, right, of women leaving the workforce, whether it be for men as or the fact that we don’t have childcare, care for, you know, older adults, right? All of this parents, right? All of this is, I mean, try to find someone to help support, care for your parents, it’s virtually impossible. So all of these things are real kind of societal structural issues that I think women, I mean, in their 50s, are starting to really face, and it’s having real consequences on what they’re deciding to do professionally. And we just haven’t focused on it.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  38:57

Right, we haven’t focused on it, and science hasn’t studied it, and we haven’t devoted the resources to it. I mean, you know, I saw Samantha Bee do stand up in royal a couple years ago, and she was talking mostly about menopause. I didn’t know that. I just love her, so I went to the show. But it was like it right there, right? And she was talking about how the finest scientists on the planet sent Sally Ride to space for four days with 100 tampons. Those were the best scientists around. Didn’t know how woman’s body worked, no. So I’ve told that, and some men look at me like, what I’m like, you don’t need 100 tampons, even if you’re on if, you’re on, if you even, if you’re having your period, those same exact word is, that’s right.

 

Speaker 1  39:44

Well, I’m happy to report I interviewed my friend Christina couch, who is going to be, you know, going to orbiting the moon. She was one of the incredible female astronaut they are actually shifting her training to anticipate for her perimenopause symptoms. So. There are being like you said, the more women you have, the more people that around the table. Things actually do change.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  40:08

It’s why diversity matters, you know, diversity not just in gender, not just in age, you know, I mean, it’s just through all the spectrum, because we all have a different lived experience. We all have. We see things from different perspectives. And if you don’t have that, you’re really running a risk. It’s dangerous not to have robust, empowered diversity at all tables where decisions are being made that impact people’s lives.

 

Speaker 1  40:35

Yeah, and I think part of it is just training women on how to basically, kind of stand up for themselves. I was thinking about a story you told in the book about your blue dress, and I am gonna have you tell it. And I experienced something similar when I was running for office, except it was about my Kate Spade shoes, and I want you to tell the story, and then I want to talk about it.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  40:57

So I was getting ready for my first State of the State. I had just won, but I had, you know, I’m a Democratic governor, and I’ve got a Republican led house and a Republican led Senate. I ran on practical things like fixing the damn roads. I wrote this speech to kick off and set the tone for my first term as governor, my first opportunity to address the state as a sitting governor after my inauguration. And you know, when you’re a woman in politics, people notice what you wear. You can’t just wear the same suit and change up the tire shirts so it can get expensive. And, you know, COVID servant, I don’t make a lot of money. I’m not complaining, but it’s not, you know, I don’t have people who dress me at like I do all this my own. And so I rented a dress from Rent the Runway, a blue dress. It was just like a dress I’d worn on Inauguration. Cut similarly, I thought was, you know, attractive. I wore it, and it was, you know, I look back on the pictures, and I think, God, I walked in there because my girls had picked out with me. And they were like, you look really pretty now, you know. And so I watched, I was feeling good. I gave this speech. I talked about each of the legislative leaders and their families, and so we’ve got to see one another so we can work together and get to know each other. And I complimented them all, and gave the speech and vision on Michigan left. And I thought, Oh, it went well, I didn’t, you know, have any big blunders. And shortly thereafter, the coverage started happening, and, man, it was brutal people. All they talked about was the dress that I wore. They talked about what my boobs look like in the dress. They talked about that it, you know, some people said, oh, you know that I was rocking it. My my boobs look great. Others said I looked like, you know, 10 pounds of sugar and a five pound.

 

Reshma Saujani  42:40

Or like, I see you’re wearing a different bra now.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  42:42

Yeah, I need a new bra. And one of the pieces they covered was not about my speech. It was interviewing man on the street about my dress. And one guy was saying I looked like I was pregnant, and all I could do was laugh, because if, you know, I know you’d cry, but it’s like, you know it was so depressing, because I’m, like, I just gave this speech. I worked so hard on it, and they’re talking about the damn dress I’m I’m half tempted rushma to wear that same dress next year in my last day of the state.

 

Speaker 1  43:17

You should totally do it, right? You should totally, totally rock it. But so what do you do? Because it’s kind of like what you just experienced last week, right? It’s, it is really hard to own the narrative. You know what happens? You know what you know, I mean, but then it gets taken from you, right? So what do you do?

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  43:41

Oh, I mean, I think you you laugh at it, or you try to slap it down with a couple of tweets, which is what we did in that instance. You know, I said I’ve been bullied my whole life. People have been making inappropriate comments about my body my whole life. I’m just going to keep doing my work. And I think, you know, I think when people see that, it’s not going to dissuade you from moving forward. That’s not going to distract you. You’re not going to run down all the rabbit holes you got a job to do. Yes, you can laugh, brush it off and just keep going forward. I don’t have time for that, you know, I need to do most like thinking about your listeners and all the things that they’re juggling, from work to kids to bills to putting food on the table, everything that all the pressures you don’t have time for bs.

 

Speaker 1  44:27

Yeah, I think that’s the lesson. Is, like, for everyone who’s listening too it’s like, there’s because we’ve been taught to be good girls. I think our instinct is like, oh, we’ll pass you know, I’m just not going to say anything. And often, I think that’s the advice that we’re given. But I think the thing, especially right now, where there’s so much noise, you know, Chris Hayes wrote that book essentially about attention, you have to fight back. You have to own your own truth, and kind of tell your own truth. And I think the way that you navigated that, when people. To talk about your bras, or whether you were pear shaped, or whether you’re hot or not, like you didn’t just ignore it, you basically went back right at it, and I think, and then people were all on your side, even people who probably didn’t even vote for you were like, no, that’s actually inappropriate.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  45:17

Right, well, and I think you know it’s, they also respect right, knowing that no one’s going to push you around, even if they don’t agree with you, if they think, if they believe you’re doing what you think the right thing to do is people give you a lot of grace too. You know, when I was first called that woman from Michigan, I was petrified, only because, not because I my feelings were hurt, but because I was worried that the federal government was going to withhold help for Michigan when it came to COVID, like masks and gloves and all the things we couldn’t get in those early days and Detroit, we had such high numbers early on. We in Chicago and New Orleans and New York, and we were all just so desperately fighting. But, you know, I went on television and I was doing interviews, and that’s how I was getting help. So I kept going on, and I was on with Trevor Noah, and I wore a t shirt that said that woman from Michigan underneath my blazer. So I’m like, you know, the best way to deal with a bully sometimes is to laugh at them.

 

Speaker 1  46:15

100% I mean, if you let them eat your lunch, they’ll keep eating it over and over and over again. I mean, this is the advice that I give now to universities, right that are being asked to, like, compromise their academic freedom. It’s just like, at a certain point, it is about, you know, strength, respect strength, and so you have to basically show up in a way. I think that is is also true to your Tisha has this line where she says, you know you rent your title, but you own your values. I love that, and I really love that, because I think it like, especially when you’re when you are, you know, in a leadership position, and you’re reminded that this is, this is not about you, but it is also about how you decide that you want to show up in this moment you went through a divorce. And a lot of people on this show, we had an expert come talk about divorce, are kind of going through it in midlife, as you know, right? A lot of women are the ones that are often initiating divorce. It’s a huge life change for them. What advice would you have for women in going through it and you also found love again, her husband seems amazing. You reminds me a lot of my own. What’s your advice?

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  47:24

You know, everyone’s different. It’s hard to give advice. I’ll just say this. You know, we have two kids, and they they were, you know, that’s what I was so worried about when we were going through divorce. What was this going to mean for the kids? They were pretty young when we got divorced, and their dad’s a good guy, like, it just was not a good match. There wasn’t a big, horrendous thing that happened. And so we’re a little luckier than some. I recognize not everyone can try to be friends with their ex, but if you have kids and you can, it’s really good. It can be really good. He, you know, the, as I said, the kids were little, and Gary’s just, he’s a great guy. I’ve high I hired him every year. He’s he does most of my photography. Still, that’s how we met. He shot, he took pictures of me for my first campaign, and then I fell in love and had kids, and then, and so he still does pictures. He does all the pictures. Like a lot of pictures in the book are Gary. Gary took him. That’s incredible. Our family shot every holiday. He comes over and takes all of our pictures like he’s great. We get along great. Now. It wasn’t always easy. You know, there were feelings, and even in a good divorce, it’s hard, it’s really sad, and you feel like you failed and you don’t know you’re going to pay the bills. Like, there’s lots of stressors that that we were navigating. But, you know, I told him and and he was absolutely on the same page. The kids have got to come first, and so if that’s the most important thing, and we’ve been able to do that, and our like, just my daughter turned 23 the other day, and Gary and his wife, Allison, and Mark and I and both my daughters all went out to dinner together. Wow. And if I couldn’t have that relationship with him, I’d be missing out on things in my girls lives, I think, or they’d feel bad about things that they shouldn’t have to feel bad about. So we’re really lucky. Not every, not every divorced couple can do that, but if it’s possible, it can work out great.

 

Speaker 1  49:24

Yeah, I think it is about, like, what, how can you also like my husband and I, you know, we still, I think oftentimes, like we are both could be, like, really intense and like, feisty and but we have a couples counseling that we do every single week and or every other week. And it is, it is just really you, it’s the investment that you take both in the marriage and then in the breakup of the marriage, right? That is, like, makes all the difference.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  49:52

Yep, we went to counseling, you know, and that helped us see, okay, we weren’t a good match. But here’s a path forward. And, I’m glad you pointed that out, because I hadn’t even thought about that. But I think counseling, I think therapy, Oh, I love that. It’s getting more and more acceptable for people to say it’s a good thing.

 

Speaker 1  50:12

It’s a good thing, because it’s a good thing. So one of the most powerful moments in your career is when you shared that you were sexually assaulted in college. In your book, I remember you calling your father after because you hadn’t told him, and you’re like, this is about to come out. You know, you’ve always been this fierce advocate for reproductive rights, but you but you gave in, like being so vulnerable and sharing something so personal, you gave other people language and how to talk about this issue. How, what was that moment like for you?

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  50:47

Well, you know, I had been so I was raped when I was a freshman at Michigan State, and, you know, I hadn’t really shared that with very many people, a few partners over the years, and I had not planned to talk about it publicly. It was, it was not a it was, it was a spur of the moment decision. But in the legislature, they were pushing through this bill that would require women to pre purchase abortion insurance, so you had to prepare for an unplanned event by buying something that didn’t actually exist. So it wasn’t really about solving a problem. It was about creating another barrier between women and the right to access abortion. And the legislature, at the time, would not hold a single hearing so women or medical providers could testify. They were just jamming it through, and it became clear that the only way we were going to even get an alternative viewpoint on the record was to speak up. I was trying to get my colleague to tell his story. He and his wife had lost yet another pregnancy to I, you know, another IVF pregnancy lost in miscarriage, and she required abortion care at the hospital. And I was trying to get him to tell the story. It was too recent, and I realized I’m going to ask him to tell the story when I have one I know, and I decided to spur the moment to share my my story. And, you know, I took two of my staff people into the side room, and I said, alright, I’m going to tell you something, and I’m thinking about talking about the floor, and I want your advice. And I said, You told him what had happened. And the woman said, don’t tell the story. It’s not going to make a difference, and you’re just going to make yourself vulnerable. And the man looked at me like the blood had run out of his face, and he was like, I have no advice. Like, I don’t I got nothing. Do what you think. Do what is right for you to do? And so the last minute, I decided to share the story, and the woman was right, it didn’t make a damn bit of difference. The boat went down, the gavel fell. I lost the fight, and had just shared this horrible thing that happened to me, and it realized, oh shit, I gotta call my dad, because he’s going to hear about this in the news. I knew that the news would cover it, even though it’s late at night, and it was just a really bizarre thing to have to do. And I think he was half asleep when I called and I said, you know, and he, of course, didn’t know what to say. He’s like, are you okay? And I said, I am. Just wanted you to hear it from me. And I woke up the next day. I was so depressed, because.

 

Speaker 1  53:21

And bravery doesn’t always feel good, right? This would both tell me, it doesn’t. You weren’t like, Oh, I did it. You know, look at me. I’m a hero. You’re it doesn’t feel that way.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  53:31

I’m like, I just sold this, and no one get no one cared.

 

Reshma Saujani  53:35

Right, it didn’t matter.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  53:36

I lost, and now here I am. You know, God, what have I done? But when I got into the office, and we’d been inundated by people calling and sending emails saying thank you, or this happened to me as well in college or and, and, you know, I was, I did see a therapist at one point who was, who was sharing with me. You know, we all start as like a ball of clay, and life will take things away from you. It’ll carve you out sometimes, she said, But when a ball of clay is carved out, it becomes a vessel that can carry water and it can give you purpose. And so I love that I’m a really visual learner, and I love thinking that that innocence was taken away from me when I was raped. You know that, that feeling of being secure and in my own space and knowing, you know, feeling confident, knowing who I am to feeling, you know, having this taken away from me when I was raped, and now being able to see okay, but this is what gives me purpose, and I am a crusader for reproductive rights and for access for health care for women because of that, and now I can see purpose in it doesn’t make it okay, and it doesn’t mean every person who’s gone through this or worse has a duty to speak out, but I have found it to be give me purpose, and that you. That gives me, you know, some makes me content.

 

Speaker 1  55:04

Yeah, you know, I’ve had more miscarriages like an account, and I have shared my stories, and I shared my story of surrogacy and the amount of people, at least twice a week, someone will reach out an IG, and then I will literally call them and be like, Okay, this is the doctor I talked to. This is the medicine I had, this is what I learned about my body, and it just And invariably, I’ll get an email a year later being like, I just had my baby. Thank you so much, right? And so it’s like, all that pain, all those tears, all those moments of like, total darkness, are, like, worth it, because you can just give someone else a little bit of light yep, I have chills. That’s beautiful story. That’s what you did for so many people, so many people, and sharing that so your term is up in 2026, oh, like, so I want to ask you something, like, if you could do anything, right? And it had to be out of politics, and it was something for yourself, or something you’ve always wanted to do. What would it be because you’re about to have a break? I would go to an ashram in India and really learn how to meditate for long periods of time and not fall asleep, which is what I normally do when I meditate. Like what would you do?

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  56:20

I, you know, I this would be leaving my husband behind so he would not be happy. I kind of like to go eat, live the Eat, Pray, Love, which includes part of yours, but also entails eating in Italy, you know, my husband and I have talked about, you know, I’d like to go out and check out the national parks out west. Never done that. I am a Michigander. I love to drive. My husband hates to drive, so I’m the driver in the family. I haven’t driven in seven years now, which is crazy, so I’ll need a driving course again before they set me free. But I think, I think I’d like to throw the dogs and the husband in the car and go out west and go go hiking.

 

Speaker 1  57:02

That sounds epic, right? Listen to some books and podcasts. Go hike and camp, be in nature. I love that. So what advice are you going to give? What advice would you give to other women in midlife who want to lead with strength and confidence and swag?

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  57:21

Be you show up exactly as you are. I got that piece of advice from this woman from Detroit, who I’ve gotten to know pretty well since, but when I was first running for governor, she we were on the phone, and I always had a whiteboard. I’d write the best pieces of advice on it, you know, and look at it. And she said, just show up as you are, you know, don’t show up as anyone else. Be exactly who you are. And I think that that’s been a good a good North Star. So that would be my advice, because every one of us has has an important voice and perspective and value.

 

Speaker 1  57:56

Well, this was such a great conversation, and again, I really appreciate that we have become friends and have gotten to spend time together, and you really are such a role model for so so many people. I love the nicknames Big Gretch. Big Gretch energy is what we all got to have. So thank you so much.

 

Governor Gretchen Whitmer  58:16

Thanks, Reshma.

 

Reshma Saujani  58:17

A huge shout out to Governor Gretchen Whitmer for taking the time to talk with me today. Her book True Gretch also has a YA version aimed at young people wishing to make a difference in the world. So check it out. Buy it for someone you love. One last thing before you go. Thank you so much for listening to My So Called Midlife if you haven’t yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’ll get bonus content like me and Dr Mary Claire haver talking about the importance of resistance training in midlife. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcast, or for all the other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com, thanks, we’ll be back next week.

 

CREDITS  59:13

I’m your host, Reshma Saujani. Our associate producer is Isaura Aceves, and our senior producer is Kryssy Pease.   This series is Sound Design by Ivan Kuraev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltuck.   Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel.   Special thanks to our development team, Hoja Lopez, Jamela Zarha Williams and Alex McOwen. Executive Producers include me, Reshma Saujani, Stephanie Whittle Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know how you’re doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife. Follow My So Called Midlife, wherever you get your podcast, or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership, thanks so much for listening. See you next week, bye.