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Which sketch comedy show is better: Saturday Night Live or In Living Color? Writer and performer Carma Anderson says it’s SNL while storyteller and director Jameer Pond votes for In Living Color. Carma says SNL’s longevity is proof of its superiority and argues that it’s produced more stars and has showcased a diverse array of cast members over its 50-year run. Jameer says In Living Color had better quality, brought Black culture into the mainstream, and created cultural icons. After a heated debate, it’s up to Ronald Young Jr. to cast the deciding vote to determine this week’s winner.

Follow Carma @goodcarmawon on Instagram and Jameer @jameerpond on Twitter and Instagram.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Carma Anderson, Jameer Pond, Ronald young Jr.

Ronald young Jr.  00:00

Saturday Night Live is a cultural institution. It’s considered by many to be the gold standard of sketch comedy. It’s also been the pinnacle of many comedy and writing careers and a milestone for some of comedy’s biggest stars. There have been other sketch comedy series that have operated in the shadow of SNL, but only two of them are regularly brought up in conversation as potential competition the fox show Mad TV, which premiered in 1995 and ran for 14 seasons and highlighted such stars as Michael McDonald, Orlando Jones, Deborah Wilson and Phil LaMarr, and the even shorter lived Fox show in living color, which premiered in 1990 and ran for five seasons in living color came from the brain of Keenan ivory Waynes, who brought with him his brothers Damon, Sean Marlon and Dwayne, as well as his sister Kim. They brought the funny with them and introduced to the world the likes of Jamie Foxx, Jim Carrey, Tommy Davidson, David Allen Greer and even fly girl, Jennifer Lopez. The show was hilarious and had a huge impact on culture, and is even credited for the conception of the Super Bowl halftime show, but in its short and historic run, was in living color better than Saturday Night Live. Did it do enough in its brief tenure to claim the title of Best sketch comedy show? We decide today, once and for all right here and right now on Pop Culture Debate Club. I’m Ronald Young Jr.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:24

So let’s meet our panelists for the day. Representing Saturday Night Live is writer and performer at New York City’s magnet theater. Hello and welcome Carma Anderson.

 

Carma Anderson  01:44

Hi, Ronald, nice to talk to you.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:48

Also joining us, representing In Living Color is writer, producer and the creative video director for Vanity Fair. Let’s welcome Jamir pond.

 

Jameer Pond  01:55

Ronald, how you doing man, don’t yell my name like that.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:03

I’ll mess with you.

 

Carma Anderson  02:04

Sound like somebody uncle.

 

Jameer Pond  02:06

Ronald.

 

Carma Anderson  02:07

Somebody on definitely somebody black. Uncle.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:10

The familiarity that you brought immediately gave you at least two points right there.

 

Jameer Pond  02:14

It’s a good two syllable name.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:16

Yeah, I’m so excited to have both of you here. We’re going to talk about a little bit about sketch comedy. Let me ask y’all, what is your background with sketch comedy Carma, I know you’ve done some sketch comedy, right? You’re with magnet theater.

 

Carma Anderson  02:32

I started out doing like the sketch lab, and then I auditioned for the house team, and then I got on the house team, and I was on the house team for about a year, and some change. Jameer was actually a writer. We were on that same house team for a second, and then he left after his first sketch, dropped the mic, dipped out.

 

Jameer Pond  02:49

Why would? Why was that in the biography of your sketch experience.

 

Carma Anderson  02:54

Just connecting it. It was part of my experience. I will say that with with sketch in New York, it is. It’s very non black, especially with the writing staff as well. So I we had one black woman writer before Jamir joined, and then we had to, Jamir is also from, you know, we’re from the same area Brooklyn, so it was going to have a different type of tone. You know, even for the house teams, I think there was a total of four people during the same time, I was out of all the teams for black people on all the teams.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:25

And Jameer, you thought that that was a good environment for you to leave rather than represent.

 

Jameer Pond  03:31

I know, right. Who am I? No, I thought it was was just really good opportunity to be a part of, like, actual house team. It was really cool, good experience. I think I gained what I had to gain. And then I was like, I I’m out. But, like, no shade, no tea. I enjoyed it. We got, you know, got some dope stuff off the ground, and, uh, yeah.

 

Carma Anderson  03:59

It was amazing.

 

Ronald young Jr.  04:00

So y’all work together at the magnet theater? Is that the origin of y’all relationship? Is that where y’all met? Or is does it go deeper than that?

 

Jameer Pond  04:08

Nah, she used to date my homie, and she dated my she dated my homie. They used to worry that’s real bank shadow, yeah. Oh my god. I thought that was okay. My man. She’s dating one of my best friends. And, um, you know, peaks and valleys, right? But every time I would see, like, uh, karma out, um, you know, it was just always like, like, an energy. And then she’s was one of the first, like, people, or the first person, to kind of introduce me to the world of, like, live story, said, You should take class at the magnet. And I was like, oh, depth. Like, bet. I was like, yo, you should take this, like, improv class. And so, like, we kind of alley up each other. And. And on some comedy shit, and that’s it. I think it forced it our connection, but we knew each other for we knew each other for a while, though.

 

Carma Anderson  05:09

Yeah, it’s like going on 15 years now.

 

Jameer Pond  05:12

Something like it nice.

 

Carma Anderson  05:13

Yeah, something like that.

 

Ronald young Jr.  05:14

Carma, have you ever been in an argument with Jameer?

 

Carma Anderson  05:17

Yes.

 

Ronald young Jr.  05:18

What was it like?

 

Carma Anderson  05:20

We had an argument an hour ago. So it was on. It wasn’t an argument. We had an argument just an hour ago. Just an hour ago, about about Alanis Morissette and Fiona Apple. It’s insane, like very they’re always niche. They’re always niche arguments. He was confused with Fiona Apple being Alanis Morissette, and that’s part of the reason, how we got there in the first place.

 

Jameer Pond  05:42

They was in the same time.

 

Ronald young Jr.  05:43

Okay, Fiona Apple has, uh, has beggars. She’s not a lattice Morrissette, but I will say karma. It is fair to get those two confused. As a black person who was raised around that time, I wouldn’t hold that against them, is all I’m saying. I know they’re not the same. I agree with you. I wouldn’t hold it against them.

 

Jameer Pond  06:00

It’s all wouldn’t be able to separate them in a police lineup, wow. But they go together. If they did a versus, I would tune in.

 

Carma Anderson  06:10

Nice.

 

Ronald young Jr.  06:10

Y’all can go back. We can talk Fiona Apple versus land of Fauci. But for today, are y’all ready to fight? Okay, Carma, give me your opening argument for why Saturday Night Live is a better sketch comedy show than in living color.

 

Carma Anderson  06:27

I mean, 50 years so we’re talking about the breadth of actual material. The stars that have come out of that show their continued career success. It speaks for itself as well as it’s inspired a generation, in generations and generations, there’s like people can live in one household, and their grandparent, their parent and them have both watched all three watched this one show, and the fact that there’s access to it, people can still remain connected. You can also see the the migration and evolution of comedy, you know, from being able to say whatever the hell you wanted to so maybe not so much right, to just seeing more than just different people, non binary, different ethnicities, different cultures, different religions, being able to have access to this comedic front, it just creates a diverse palette, so that other people in the world who don’t see these people can see that these are things that they also find funny as well.

 

Ronald young Jr.  07:28

This is a podcast. It is not a visual video, but listening to you karma break that down eloquently and looking at Jameer’s face, I just know.

 

Carma Anderson  07:39

I know this is shady.

 

Ronald young Jr.  07:44

Jameer your opening argument. Why isn’t living color better than Saturday Night Live?

 

Jameer Pond  07:50

Saturday Night Live a canon of a show important in Sketch. We love it, yay. We don’t talk about the quality, though, of Saturday Night Live. We talk about how it has longevity. A lot of people think Saturday Night Live ain’t been funny in years. That’s just that’s just people. And Living Color had five seasons in four years to do something that was incredibly special, and living color was the transcendent of black culture into mainstream media as it as it goes to comedy, sketch comedy level, the amount of stars that have come out of Saturday and I live, we do know, right, but the amount of cultural icons that have come out of In Living Color, Jim Carrey all the Waynes is and there’s 50 of them. They got a whole legacy. Jamie Foxx, Jennifer Lopez, Rosie Perez, Tommy Davidson, David Alan Greer, David Alan Greer and Damon Wayans have network shows out now in their 60s. It shows the breadth of their longevity. Saturday live is amazing, but they clearly don’t know what to do with talent, as they had Damon Wayans and Chris Rock, who would join a living color in the fifth season, and they fumbled and dropped the ball with both of them, and they didn’t even hire Jim Carrey. So if I had to say, the quality, we know the quantity in Saturday alive 50 years, a lot of them years was ashy. Okay, let’s be honest. Lot of them seasons was ashy. But if we talk about the quality of the product, four years, five seasons of bangers, that are undeniable.

 

Carma Anderson  09:35

I just find it very interesting that you said SNL has not been funny in years.

 

Jameer Pond  09:41

I said, some people say that, that’s a fair criticism.

 

Carma Anderson  09:45

But neither has it in living color, because it’s not on air. So it also hasn’t been funny in years at all, because it’s you can’t see it. I find it very interesting that of all the people you name in living color, two of them were dancers, so I don’t even know why we’re speaking about. About the fly girls, because we’re talking about comedic expression. And I mean, people make mistakes. Jim Carrey was a mistake. But the American.

 

Ronald young Jr.  10:08

People not being hired by SNL, that was a mistake, yeah.

 

Jameer Pond  10:12

Oh, that was a critical mistake.

 

Carma Anderson  10:13

Absolutely.

 

Jameer Pond  10:15

They hired Robert Downey Jr, though.

 

Carma Anderson  10:17

Hey, rap pack was very influential in the 80s. So what I will say is, is that although you are talking about the influences, right? And that’s fine, I agree, right? You picked two people out of that that have network shows. I know.

 

Ronald young Jr.  10:33

Carma, let me ask you, let’s get to the heart of something that Jamir said, which is that the last few years, and especially the criticism against SNL recently has been the show has not been very funny. That’s one of them, and that’s something that I’ve heard like, not just from people who hate the show. I’ve heard from people who love the show. And think about this current era, like, if Bowen Yang isn’t there, what is going on with the show? How do you speak to a show that has that type of longevity with a bit of obvious fall off. How do you defend a show like that staying on the air?

 

Carma Anderson  11:05

Well, I won’t say that yes, it has had some its challenges the last few years. However, I think that yes, challenges, right challenges, and you can talk about the challenges because they’re still on air to talk about. So the challenges that SNL is facing, they’re real. Um but I will say that you know von Yang. I also feel like, you know Edgar Waldo, like, there’s a there. There are a plethora of other people that have come up. Kate McKinnon, I mean 80 Bryant, like, yes, it has fun, baby. We talked about last two years. Did you hear that part? Last few years? Oh, you missed it. It’s okay. The last few years, there’s been issues. Absolutely, I think that. I think also, what’s also, I think it’s a burnout. I think, you know, SNL requires a lot of its principal players, right? And I think what also happens, too, is that a lot of the actors used to be writers. And I just think really, what the problem is, they’re not replacing the writers room when they bring these actors up. But I think as of lately, they’ve taken the criticism and they have a lot more young black writers, a lot more women, a lot more queer people that are in the writers’ room. And you can tell from the quality of the sketches the last two years. I think that, yes, people that have been staunch criticizers of the show would say that the last two years have been better seasons during this slump. But I think you know, it’s normal.

 

Ronald young Jr.  12:34

Do you ever get concerned as a black person, especially now, when you have that type of diversity in the writing room, that after a show has been levied with a criticism like, it’s not funny anymore, then you throw minorities at it if it fails in the future, that is on the backs of minorities, as opposed to it saying, well, maybe there’s a different direction that you need to take from the top down, and not just in the writers room.

 

Carma Anderson  12:56

I’ve honestly never thought of a moment. I don’t think there is a moment where I’ve ever seen people of color and black people being put into a situation to save it, and them not doing it when things are not working. Black people saved the day. And I will say that the last two years have been the influx of the black writers. That is the difference. That is not the criticism. That I would look at it as I would look at it as like we recognize that this is stale. We have to spice it up. No pun intended.

 

Jameer Pond  13:27

Which is why, just this season, they got rid of Alex English, one of their core writers and punky Johnson, one of their core cast members, both happened to be Negro, if you wanted to know. But I’ll say, I’ll say this, I think Saturday not live under fair criticism. I’m a fan of Saturday, not live i love i know it just hasn’t been. Could we say not up to the historical par that it has been? Could we say that? Or can we say that just in the amount of 50 years, critically, a lot of those years just were not funny. They just weren’t good. They were transition years. If you look about the golden era of Saturday Night Live, you take the first cast, which had one black person, you go to the golden era, which, I think from 1980 to 1987 to 1988 there had only been three black performers in Saturday Night Live four in its history. And when we talk about the opportunity to have shows like barrel through and land on their back, I mean, except from, I would say, like Keenan Thompson, who’s a major contributor they have, who else has gotten the opportunity. They haven’t even been enough laborers of black people to even have it on their back. Because, I mean, historically, we just kind of been ignored on that show.

 

Ronald young Jr.  14:59

We’ll be back with more Pop Culture Debate Club after this break.

 

Ronald young Jr.  15:17

Let’s stay in the lane of longevity and talk specifically about in living color, because I think it is a valuable argument to say you only had five years to be on air. So you don’t have 20 years to become mediocre. So talk to me about the five years that living in living color is on air. Why is that more impactful than the 50 years that SNL has been on air?

 

Jameer Pond  15:40

What I will say is that the impact of in living color, what a lot of people don’t know is that in 1992 In Living Color took a 24 minute segment out against the Super Bowl, when the Super Bowl didn’t have a half time show, and they snatched 23 million people away from the Super Bowl. After that, the year following, in 1993 the Super Bowl has Michael Jackson as their halftime performer, which starts the longevity of the halftime show, which we have now okay. Legacy number one. Legacy number two, the heads of HBO, in terms of development, had a hand in making the pilot Chris Albrecht from HBO, who is famous in the comedy game, had his hand in making a pilot. He couldn’t get it to the finish line, so we got taken over by Fox. But he has been credited in saying that his time on a living color has helped foster HBO create original programming. So without in living colors influence, we would not have the HBO programming that we do have. That’s not from me, that’s from Chris and then three, if you just talk about the legacy of everybody on the show, the actors, juanese, the whole way INS family, even to today, with Scary Movie six in production, you know. But the legacy of the Wayans and how they’ve been able to spread through the industry. When you talk about actors like Jamie Foxx, who has won an Oscar and become an accomplished and won a Grammy and an accomplished performance, nobody was taking a chance on Jamie Foxx, a living color. Did Jim Carrey, one of the finest actors comedic and dramatic of our time, like Keenan Ivory Wayans, if nothing else, has an eye for talent. Yes, we have takia, who was on that so Raven. We have Tommy Davidson. They were able to take a compact group of people and make most of them, most of them legendary in five years, four years, five seasons.

 

Carma Anderson  17:40

So Ronald, can I respond when I get jumped or whatever? I’m just making sure. So I will say that yes, Jameer has wonderful points and see he’s so eloquently expressing the comedic nerdness that we both share. However, what I will say is, I’m sorry, this is my point. Okay, baby, that’s fine. I’m going to include you, because it’s a debate, so I have to refer to you. I’m sorry. Okay, all right, no problem. You don’t okay. The man over there in his home.

 

Jameer Pond  18:19

Thank you.

 

Carma Anderson  18:20

The Waynes brothers have a very great habit of starting something wonderful and not seeing it through the minute that it doesn’t go their way. And while I understand the artistic, I guess nuances of being able to just stand in your art and be like, I’m not doing this. But if you’re for the people, the people that look like you, you are constantly removing yourself from things you don’t seem to have control. They didn’t like the way they were being censored on Fox, and so they decided to not deal with it anymore, which I get. But then they took a wonderful show off the air because of the decision that they made to not figure it out. And then I can even understand that. But once they started the scary movie franchise, a similar thing they’ve they’re not part of that at all. And it’s very clear the downward spiral that has happened with that franchise that we still associate with them again. So whether it’s amazing or shitty, it is still them, and they don’t have parts. So I think they’re showing that, you know, it’s something to be said about going through the rough times, which it doesn’t seem like they really want to do.

 

Ronald young Jr.  19:23

But Carma. Isn’t that an argument for the greatness of the weigh ins brothers and what they bring to the table?

 

Carma Anderson  19:29

Absolutely not. No, absolutely not. Because what are they bringing? Every time they bring to the table, they take it away, right? It’s like you having a bunch of chicken and grandma gave a chicken, but it’s not enough chicken to go around. You go to the table. Ain’t no chicken. It was nice. I saw it everybody else enjoyed it. Did I get some No, right? So when it’s not there, you can bring whatever the table’s nice. But now we are resting on our laurels. We are resting on what we did and not what we continue to do. So yes, it’s very easy to say, I’m a winner. When you quit before you have problems. It’s amazing. It’s really is right. Tom Brady would have been able to stand on that, on his whatever nonsense he did, because he was a winner, but the minute that he kept going, he then it’s now part of his legacy. It’s always yes, he was a winner, but he had a really shitty season that last time, and he had to leave like that, and it but if you leave without going through the shitty times, then it’s amazing to go. You can always glorify and put certain things at a pinnacle, because they don’t allow you to have enough bad times. See, we’re comparing something that didn’t have a chance to go through the ebbs and flows, like SNL. We’re comparing a dynasty, while I do consider the wings to be a dynasty that, again, did not go through the ebbs and flows because of the success. They didn’t have to, and that’s amazing. But unfortunately, because we’re black, we have to kind of be unfortunately, we have to take the burden of a lot of things, and if there’s not the availability, and it’s not the expression, it’s not it’s not the follow through, then it does take a while for that to rev up again, and I think that’s why we have yet to see a show like that. I mean, black lady schedule received a ton of criticism, right? A ton of criticism, and was pulled from HBO. So the same HBO I circle back that is so great at the programming.

 

Jameer Pond  21:18

I mean, when you talk about opportunities, I don’t think they had those times to get to that point, because a lot of shows that they had, my wife and kids, the Waynes brothers in the house with Kim Williams. Shout out to Kim Williams, the king Robbie Wayne show, they got placement down the line. But once they did may not have maybe been going through turmoil, they were instantly taken away. Scary movie franchise was taken away from the wings.

 

Ronald young Jr.  21:51

So you think it’s a you think it’s about success. You think like their success is what took them away from in living color.

 

Jameer Pond  21:57

I think that they are a family that has come from unifying and going against censorship. And I think when things you know they might have, I know the Waynes brothers and my wife and kids have syndication, so they get paid off for the royalties, but other shows, I don’t think we’re able to have that longevity, because once the Waynes might have stood up for themselves, you know, networks might not have liked that, or they could have saw it dropping the ratings and been like, All right, we’re not going to give you a chance. We’re not going to, you know, have let you have a few bad years. We’re not going to let you go through this cycle of, you know, I mean, which we see inside, in our love. It’s just just facts. It’s always some rough years before the show could get back on its feet to prominence. But we don’t. We didn’t have that opportunity to see that with with a living color, the Wayne’s family left in the fourth season so over creative and financial differences. So if they’re not given the opportunity, but we’re still having a conversation about in living color versus Saturday Night Live. I think it speaks to the longevity of the way INS.

 

Ronald young Jr.  23:11

We’ll be back with more PCDC after this break.

 

Ronald young Jr.  23:29

So we talked a lot here about, uh about, kind of like, the struggles that both of these shows have. And we’ve talked a lot about longevity. Let’s talk a little bit about content, specifically about content. Carma, can you give me like, What do you think is if Saturday Night Live goes off the air tomorrow, what is the iconic sketch that you use to defend it being a better show than in living color? If you could only pick one.

 

Carma Anderson  23:54

I would have to say it would be Weekend Update. Um, I just think that is the one sketch if you know, if you are a comedy buff, and if, definitely, you’re a sketch. But, like, I don’t think in the argument, there are amazing sketches that have lasted, but that is the only one that has endured. And so just off of that.

 

Ronald young Jr.  24:12

Which pairing, which anchor pair?

 

Carma Anderson  24:15

You know, I will say, you know, you know, that’s, that’s a tough one. I will say Tina, you know, I don’t know. I take Tina Fey, you know, but I think Tina Fey would. I think Tina Fey could have done it by herself, to be honest. Really think that she right, and I think she could have, I think that like her, is it really hinge on that. I think probably the best comedic chemistry, though, I would say what is currently happening. I will say that, that that, you know, it’s, I think it has a lot to do with, you know, them just being writers, not really being performers. I think they’re able to focus and they understand the timings. I think sometimes, you know, SNL does do too much just because someone’s an amazing writer. I think they make the mistake of taking them out the writer’s pit, and I think that has a lot to do. But I think, you know, when you have writers that are purely supposed to just be doing, writing and delivering jokes, and that’s all they do on the show. They are able to be very specific, very niche, and target exactly what they’re doing, all right? And I think that’s why this current, this current pairing, is really the best.

 

25:33

Michael Che, Colin Jost.

 

Carma Anderson  25:34

Yeah, I think the timing is just just amazing, as far as and they, even though they come from different schools of thought, they’re both from New York, but they come from very different worlds, and they’re still able to kind of meet in the middle. And I think that also that weekend update is able to incorporate the other parts of sketch that other sketches really can’t do. They can use what’s currently going on, but they can take characters, they can have them reoccurring and change and mold them into different things depending on what’s going on and what’s necessary.

 

Ronald young Jr.  26:06

Do you think that’s still a longevity argument? Because Colin Jost and Michael Che have been the longest tenured Weekend Update hosts on the show?

 

Carma Anderson  26:15

Well, you know, I would say this, if I had a choice of a doctor, I’d want the doctor that’s been practicing longer, yes, as opposed to the one that’s still in medical school. That’s me, you know? I just think certain things come with longevity in that that’s just something that we can’t really take away, even if we talk about a living color. I mean, we’re talking about people that were able to create lightning in a bottle because they were related, right? There’s something to be said about being around somebody and creating that comedic timing. They can’t see you rolling your eyes in there. It’s something to say about the comedic timing, right? You can make an argument that part of their success is their longevity as family members. So I would say that it also is the longevity, because a lot of that is their ability. They do understand where they are best at. They were strong in family. And I think a lot of people would be like that, right? The closer you are, like Jameer and I, we can have conversations. And the timing, I know exactly what he’s going to say, and vice versa and where he’s going with the nonsense. Because we have to say now.

 

Ronald young Jr.  27:32

Well, before you do, Jameer, before you do, can you give me like you have to pick the one iconic sketch from a living color if you have to pick something that is the one thing that makes it, that is the enduring piece of culture from it, what would you say is the sketch?

 

Jameer Pond  27:50

Homie the clown, homie, don’t play that. And I’ll tell you why.

 

Carma Anderson  27:56

How timeful.

 

Jameer Pond  27:57

Beyond how funny Damon Wayans is, and you know, beyond them, able to use his lightning in a bottle which sat in alive, didn’t because they, they dropped them after a year. You can go back and check the facts. I think it exemplifies, um, just the show in its entirety, and where black people were at that moment and still are, you know you’d be made to look like a clown and you’re supposed to perform, but I don’t think so.

 

Jameer Pond  28:27

Y’all that. He just right now, wait a minute […]

 

Ronald young Jr.  28:38

You let me get out the […]

 

Jameer Pond  28:43

[…] Right, you out the kitchen. So Homie The Clown, which was um, given to Damon Wayans by Paul Mooney, who wrote for Richard Pryor. You know, brilliant comedic lineage right there. But homie the clown really exemplifies what the Living Color show was, it was a show that was given no hope and was supposed to just entertain a few people, or whatever the case was. It was supposed to be a clown show, a one hit wonder, and just like homie, it became a staple and probably the most beloved character by a lot of Living Color fans of the show. I think it exemplifies the time again, how black people made to see you a clown. You know, whatever the case is, but Homie really did what a Living Color did, which was say, I’m not bucking to the man. And as as you know, not having the longevity. Again, I don’t think it was necessarily the quality of the show. I think it was the fact of back behind the scenes. Think we all can agree that a Living Color is a comedic institution, if we just talking about black comedy. And, you know, I don’t know, you know, the analysis of being in medical school, you know, because we going putting them side. By side. But if we look at just that time period from 1990 to 1994 and match up the SNL conglomerate with, uh, in living color, and you probably could throw some more years onto that, but just that group, no no question in living color has the better guys.

 

Ronald young Jr.  30:20

Jameer, when we talk about the strength of the Wayne’s, they’re driving the success of in living color. They leave and they go on to all do successful things, enduring until today. However, with SNL, there have been many successes that come from the show, but it’s all driven by Lorne Michaels, which something to say about the about maybe having the one person who is not going to leave that is setting the creative vision for the show karma does bring up a good point to say that once the wins are gone and living color, all of a sudden deflates. How important is that to have maybe that central figure that is driving the vision of the show and not making it so bent on personalities?

 

Jameer Pond  31:02

So I think it’s very important, and I also think it’s very important to acknowledge that Lorne Michaels did the same thing that Keenan Ivory Wayans did those Saturday Night Live years where Eddie Murphy saved the show. Lauren Michaels wasn’t involved. He had left the show to do other programming and then came back to the show. So, you know, I think it comes with differences. I don’t think Living Color had the opportunity to go past those years, different time, completely different people. But make no mistake, Loren Michaels did the same thing. He left the show when it was looking destitute. He wasn’t getting his creative vision to go. And then somebody saved the show. You know, that happened to be Eddie Murphy. And then, once the show got saved, and then Eddie left, and it became trash. Then Loren Michael stepped back in in around like 86 where he made the cast with Robert Downey Jr. Again, got to throw that out there, because, like, what’s happening?

 

Carma Anderson  32:05

You underestimate the importance of the breakfast in the 80s. It didn’t matter whether it was funny.

 

Jameer Pond  32:12

Not funny.

 

Carma Anderson  32:13

But they were going to watch, and they were talking, if you’re talking about viewership and you’re talking about having to come and introduce something, then yes, that’s what all shows do they bring in the people that are influential at the time to bring in the because what needed, they needed new people to watch. They needed to create a new generation that made SNL more valid, which is, and I will say.

 

Jameer Pond  32:33

But you’re not getting the opportunity, but they’re not getting the opportunity. But living color didn’t have an opportunity to have that.

 

Carma Anderson  32:41

If we’re comparing the networks NBC and Fox, Fox was a very new network. NBC could have gone on with paper, looking at us for hours, and it still would have been able to go on and on. Fox was a new network. It didn’t have what it needed to make those types of risks at the time, I will also say that they had an issue with censorship, and us, knowing the fox we know now, it makes a lot of sense Keenan couldn’t do and take that anywhere else he could have fine crush live in England, of color. You’re censoring me go to hell. But why are we not getting another variety show? Why are we not reproducing and trying to do this again somewhere else, because we know that there is a demographic that is in need of this, and that’s the fault of the show, because they took it away from the world. If they wanted to, they could start it again.

 

Ronald young Jr.  33:33

This is a great debate, but we got to get the closing arguments. We’re running out of time, so let’s just close it. Close it up here. Jameer, give your closing argument for in living color, and then we’ll come back to you Carma.

 

Jameer Pond  33:47

What is my closing argument? I think that Fox benefited along the shoulders of The Simpsons and married with children at the time, but mainly in living color at that point in time, benefited and was able to become a sustainable company off the back of in living color, and we talk about four years, five seasons to do so, Saturday live could have been canceled right now, and the ship would still sail, because in The 80s, Cosby was holding it up in the 90s. Seinfeld was holding it up. So it never had to bear the shoulders of the company. It was a piece of that. But if we look at who built Fox, there would be no Fox. Now, if there was no one living color, you can’t say the same for Saturday Night Live, and that’s just it. And I’ll go back to the utilization of talent Saturday live, let a lot of people who have been cultural shift movers in terms of comedy, in terms of acting, they let them go. And it was, it was keen in the. Wayne’s his vision. He saw those people, not just his family. He saw Jim Carrey. He saw Jamie Foxx. He saw Chris Rock and he and they helped solidify and live in color to where it was going. But you can’t just ignore the fact that, the fact we didn’t seen 50 years of Saturn in live we see at least 15 or more years be be rubbish if we keeping it a buck. We have these four years in which In Living Color existed. They had one bad season, and that’s because the creative source left. Fox builds its network off their back. HBO Bill’s original programmer from that this supervisor, producer of In Living Color went over to went over to do friends. If we just looking at what In Living Color built in such a small time, I don’t even see us in comparison. And it was funnier, point blank period.

 

Ronald young Jr.  35:59

Carma your closing argument for SNL.

 

Carma Anderson  36:03

So you know that’s that was a wonderful soliloquy, a real love letter. Um, but let’s get down to brass tacks. I’m sorry. Are we interrupted? No.

 

Ronald young Jr.  36:13

Y’all like each other.

 

Carma Anderson  36:17

That’s my heart.

 

Jameer Pond  36:18

No, you know, sister, go ahead.

 

Carma Anderson  36:24

You are one month older than me. They’re one month older than me. Okay, anyway, I will say that while Jameer Pond does make some great points, you know, they’re not the points that are necessary for this debate. We’re talking about having a breath of knowledge and a breath of examples to go on. He said, 15 years. I’m not best at math, but I know 50. If you take 15 away from 50, that’s still 35 so if you’re 35 strong years, it’s still 35 strong years. And yes, people do make mistakes. Absolutely, I will say that Chris Rock was on both shows, but whatever, right? So clearly, the talent was seen. It didn’t work. We know we live in a racist country, and that’s clear, but you had an opportunity where you started something great and it was dropped. Had another opportunity, started something great and it dropped. It just seems like every time the waves have a hissy fit, they are taking the art away from the world. They’re not recreating it. They’re not putting it somewhere else. They’re gone, and that’s it. We may see them again. We may not right, and I think, unfortunately, it’s the responsibility of black creators to do everything they can to get what being black in this country is out to the masses, and to also employ the people that are going to best provide that message. Now, SNL message may not be the same as in living color. In fact, it’s not, because it’s called SNL, not in living color, but whatever message about what is impromptu and important at the time, they do an excellent job of getting at it. It may not be as funny as it can be, but it’s out there. It’s iconic because they are recording the times as it’s happening, and they keep the platform.

 

Ronald young Jr.  38:08

Those are closing arguments. So I’m ready to issue a ruling. I’m ready.

 

Jameer Pond  38:12

So that’s go, man. I just go into the Sizzler after this.

 

Ronald young Jr.  38:16

So I have to say they’re, they’re, there’s no interruptions during the ruling. Y’all can interrupt each other, but not during the ruling. So this is that goes for both of y’all. What a debate. Let me just start off by saying that in terms of my tenure on this show, I think this is the first one that actively felt like a debate. There was a few times where I was a little scared. So I think y’all are doing a great you know. And I want to be clear, the scare, the scared that you feel when you feel your two friends are arguing, you’re like, oh, is this becoming real? Oh, I should jump in. This is becoming real. There’s a few times where it’s swung into real, but everything’s good. You’re all smiles now, let the listeners know that what a great point y’all brought up some really good points that are really making me think at some points, both of you were ahead because I’ve watched both of these shows, and I see both the strengths and the weaknesses of both of your arguments. I think longevity is something that plays to the advantage of SNL. You’ve had all of these years to be great and all of these years to be mediocre, but it’s because you’ve had all of these years when you have all of all of these years, of course, you’re gonna have the ups and the downs and all of that within living color. You were there for four years, five seasons, as you said, Jamir, and there you are. You have the ability to do like just really potent comedy within that period of time. It begs the question, what if SNL had only existed between 1990 and 1994 Well, in 1990 you have Dana Carvey, Adam Sandler is in that era. You have norm McDonald is in that area. You have Mike Myers, you have Kevin Nealon. And this is all the time when in living color is still on the air. Chris Rock is on there, Tim Meadows is on there. Al Franken is on there. Like that’s, that’s a very good little chunk of time, if you pick era of SNL. There are eras that are that completely shine, that I think would stack very well against that very, very short In Living Color era. One part of the argument that I don’t know that I agree with so much is when we talk about removing the way in brothers, it feels at least a little victim blaming to say that it’s their fault for not reproducing another show when it really is. We know what network executives do. We know how they behave. We know how they treat black folks. Like, I know both of y’all know that. We know that there’s a way and say, if you were really sticking to your vision, if you decide to stand up to yourself, you could be out on the street with no clothes. Like, that’s just terrible, you know what I mean? And we know that that’s the truth for a lot of black creatives out there, so it’s hard for me to blame them for leaving if their vision is not the same. And I think, like, one way to look at this is, say, the fact that they’re coming back to Scary Movie and that everyone reacted like a it’s a spoof series. It’s a spoof horror series. There’s no reason in the world we should be excited about that, except that the way ins are gonna be in it. So I’m like, oh, yeah, I definitely will watch that again, because those last couple iterations were absolute garbage. We all agree with that. So with that in mind, I think it boils down to saying, like, do you think that the Wayans talent factory that existed in that four years was better than the talent factory that exists at SNL. And I think the the short answer is, No, I don’t I think it’s a flash in the pan when it comes to that period of time. But in terms of which show is better, I kind of have to narrow it down to an era it it’s important for me to say, like in that era, which one do I think is better? I think that’s the only way I can actually issue a ruling. The reason why is because, let’s just imagine a world in which In Living Color still exists. Let’s just imagine a world what happens on that show? Who’s been on that show are key and peel. Do they come on that show? Is Esau on that show? Like, does Quinta come up on that show? Like, do we get all these people that like have, that were branching out and doing their own things. Are they all like popping in on In Living Color? Is that the destination for black comedians, if it still existed, like, is that what it is? Do they have some trash seasons? You know what I mean? Do do they have, like, a bunch of trash seasons? Do they have a bunch of good seasons? We learn about all these new black comedians from In Living Color. Does that exist? Y’all, again, I see y’all smiling, because wouldn’t that be great? Wouldn’t that be awesome? If that was the case, that’d be amazing. But it wasn’t the case. It wasn’t the case, and because of that, I’m sorry, Jameer, but I think I said that looks better only because of that, because we have a smaller sample size to choose from. It’s hard for me to sit here and say that in living color is a better show. I have to say it’s SNL because it lasts longer and we have more evidence of it being better than we do within living color. We can’t take four years of one show and say, is that better than 50 years, 50 seasons of another show? So for this one karma, I have to give it to you.

 

Carma Anderson  43:00

Yeah, that was a great ruling though.

 

Jameer Pond  43:03

It was a very good debate.

 

Carma Anderson  43:04

But if I had to go against Ronald, I think it would have lost, because if that was the case, Jimmy, you gotta stop your game, because he made some good points in a short amount of time.

 

Ronald young Jr.  43:13

So I appreciate both of y’all being here. This has been a great debate. Uh, karma, thank you. And actually, Jameer said you lost. We’ll start with you, Jameer, where can folks find you if they’re looking for you?

 

Jameer Pond  43:22

I don’t like say Lois. I like to say second win which.

 

Carma Anderson  43:27

I like that you are winner junior.

 

Jameer Pond  43:29

I’m a no, no winner, I like that a little bit more. You can find me on Instagram @jameerapond, J, A, M, E, E, R, P, O, N, D, on Tiktok @Jameeapond1, the number one, and on my website, Jameepond.com.

 

Ronald young Jr.  43:46

Carma, tell me, where can people find you if they’re looking?

 

Carma Anderson  43:50

Find me in the streets. No, I’m just joking, um, they can find me @Godcarmawon on Instagram, G, O, D, C, A, R, M, A, W O N, and if you want to take improv classes at Second City in Williamsburg, I teach improv level one as well as kids improv. And you know, I will be on stage this holiday season. So come check it out. Wreck the halls at the second city in New York.

 

Ronald young Jr.  44:20

Wreck the house. Thank you both so much. This was this was very great. Thank you so much.

 

Jameer Pond  44:27

Thank you.

 

CREDITS  44:33

Thanks again to Carma Anderson and Jameer Pond.  There’s more Pop Culture Debate Club with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like Sam Sanders and Audrey Cleo Yap from the Mission Impossible vs Fast and Furious episode, discussing how they met and their fighting style. Subscribe now in Apple podcasts. Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Lemonada and the BBC.   It’s produced by Jamela Zarha Williams, Kryssy Pease,  Dani Matias and me, Ronald young Jr. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neel is VP of new content. Our Senior Vice President of weekly content  and production is Steve Nelson. Commissioning editor for the BBC is Rhian Roberts. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer.   Follow Pop Culture Debate Club, wherever you get your podcasts.