
The Buoyancy of Rob Lowe
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Throughout his long and varied career, Rob Lowe has become an expert at reinventing himself. He left behind his bad-boy image from iconic 80s movies to work on a clever mix of dramatic and comedic TV roles. But I’ve known Rob for a while, and he’s a very layered individual. We look back at how Rob has pursued his passions and how he and his wife, Sheryl, have used practical techniques to keep their marriage strong for 34 years and counting. Plus, we discuss the difference between humility and humiliation, and why Rob is always down to be the butt of the joke.
Please note: David and Rob recorded this episode before the Los Angeles wildfires began. Their hearts are with the rest of their LA community.
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Transcript
SPEAKERS
Rob Lowe, David Duchovny
David Duchovny 00:06
I’m David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success shapes who we are. Rob Lowe is an actor, filmmaker and host of the podcast, Literally, he was, of course, one of the core members of the Brat Pack, very unofficial group of young actors in the 1980s who came to dominate the screen in iconic films like The Outsiders and st Olaf. If you don’t remember rob from that era, perhaps you know him as Sam Seabourn of the hit 90s political drama The West Wing, or as the ever upbeat Chris Trager on Parks and Recreation. Whatever you know him from, or wherever you know him from, you probably know Rob Lowe. These days, you can catch him starring on 911, Lone Star, and as the host of the trivia game show the floor, he’s been married to his wife, Cheryl, since 1991 and he’s got two sons, one of them John Owen Lowe is a writer and actor, and they’ve worked together over the years, including on the Netflix comedy unstable. Rob is a terrific guy, and we’ve got some stories you’ll hear from us working together on Californication and even bad influence. Back in the day, just when I was starting out as an actor, I had the good fortune to meet Rob. So here he is, Rob Lowe, everyone, or, as I like to call them, a Rob Lowe.
Rob Lowe 01:30
Hello dude. Are you? Are you climbing? Mount McKinley.
David Duchovny 01:35
I’m gonna tell you about this.
Rob Lowe 01:37
Fuck are you? What are you? What are you wearing?
David Duchovny 01:40
Why do I look like this? You’re asking? Well, look at you. You you handsome motherfucker. You look like you just came off the slopes. What’s going on you skiing somewhere?
Rob Lowe 01:48
This is my kind of California ski look. I gave more thought to this appearance than than any podcast I’ve done in years, because I know that the bar is high. Well, then I got double D.
David Duchovny 02:02
And of course, you know that the recording, the visual recording of this will, I know it’s going nowhere, but it’s.
Rob Lowe 02:07
That shows you how smart we are. We’re spending the first five minutes talking about what we look like a what do you mean actors?
David Duchovny 02:13
What do you mean the first five minutes we’re going to do the whole hour on, on, on what we’re dressed like and what we look like.
Rob Lowe 02:19
That’s why are you dressed like your mountain climbing?
David Duchovny 02:23
All right? Well, I was just in the cold plunge. Oh yes, the best I used to go into the hot tub right after the cold plunge, but then they told me that I’m not getting the full effects, so now I come right out of the cold plunge and I’m fucking shivering for an hour. And aside from the fact that I, you know, it’s early, but I’ve got two two coats on. I’ve got the heater on, and I’m trying to you.
Rob Lowe 02:55
Got a hoodie underneath. There’s, I see at least three levels, at least two of which involve down of some sort.
David Duchovny 03:03
Yeah, I’m down. Down. I’ve got a tip of the hat to old Steve Martin routine. I’ve got my fur underwear on everything.
Rob Lowe 03:12
Yeah, the cold plunge is the sickest. Yeah, I love it. I don’t have it in the current dwelling, the new place that my wife and I are putting together has got it going on.
David Duchovny 03:24
I’ll be there. And I was, I’m very sorry to have missed your big birthday party. I was always fun. You would have loved it.
Rob Lowe 03:32
Turning 60s, not for sissies. No, as as we know can.
David Duchovny 03:35
You tell me something embarrassing that happened at the party?
Rob Lowe 03:38
All of it was embarrassing. What do you mean? All of it was embarrassing. I was ripped from stem to stern by the roast masters, Gwyneth Paltrow and Robert Downey, Jr, who literally those two, I’m telling I don’t know. I never saw Martin and Lewis in their prime, yeah, but they don’t have jack shit on those two.
David Duchovny 04:03
They were up there, so they’re up there to get together the same time.
Rob Lowe 04:06
Yeah, then they were so funny. You have something I’ve known Downey since the our high school, eighth grade high school history class, so we go back a long time, and Gwyneth, I’ve known since she was probably 18 and in Hollywood, trying to figure out if she wanted to be an actor or not, because I knew, I knew Blythe and her parents really well, so they were there and were just lambasting me.
David Duchovny 04:31
And you kind of like that, because you did the you did the celebrity roast. You are a guy.
Rob Lowe 04:36
I do. What is it? What does it say about me that? What does it say about you? Why do I let people be mean.
David Duchovny 04:41
It’s not even let Rob. It’s you invite it. You there. I think, I mean, this is, it’s funny to talk about, but it is part of your superpower. I think, I think it is when I think of you, and I do often, you know, thank you. I think Rob is buoyant. This is what I like, the the word that comes to mind, Rob is buoyant. Rob, he Bobs along these turbulent waters, but he’s always, he’s always on top of the water, and it’s like you just invite the shots, because for somehow, somehow you can take it, and somehow, you know, like, part of it is, like, the the wonderful buoyancy of your ego, because it’s like, yeah, well, I’m, at least I’m being talked about, you know, like this part of that, right? Yes, at least, at least I’m in the center of it, you know, like, it’s a shit storm, but it’s my shit storm.
05:37
But it’s my shit yes, there’s nothing worse than being forgotten.
David Duchovny 05:40
But the other part is just a wonderful and we could go deeper. I hope we can go deeper, because this is one of the things that I get from your memoir, is because I learned more about that reading that than anything else I could have done to prepare to talk to you, because you have a lot of there’s a lot of sadness underneath, and it’s not something that you ever lead with, and it’s not something in your character to ever lead with that. So you lead with, yeah, I’m an asshole. Take me down, but, but that’s not true. There’s a certain kind of strength. I’m trying to figure it out, because I think it’s a marker of true power. You know, it’s not a contradiction. I think it’s part of the same thing.
06:32
Well, I know that the there, my sense, is that there’s two answers. One is the sort of surface answer, which is, my heroes have always been guys and gals who can take it right, who you know it’s like when you’d watch, I’m just thinking of a JFK press conference right back in the day. He was always so funny about himself. And so there’s, there’s that. But the other thing is, yeah, you’re right. I mean, I remember being sad, you know, like, just, I was like a sad, like, out. I was melancholy, like a melancholy kid, right?
David Duchovny 07:20
And, do you think that’s pre divorce?
Rob Lowe 07:23
Definitely post. I don’t remember pre but post, and then moving, was really traumatic for me, the one two, the two times I moved, on top of it, and, and then I just, and I think, you know, just that sort of people pleasing, you know, wanting to be funny, you know, wanting to try to people please, yeah.
David Duchovny 07:51
Yeah, even if it means condemning yourself, you know.
07:58
I wasn’t, I probably wasn’t always as overtly down to to be to lampoonery. I The lampoonery of it all, I think is a because there were definitely times where I would do, I’d be like, oh, I don’t want to. That’s off limits, yeah. And I, I I haven’t felt that way about anything in at least 10 years, at least.
David Duchovny 08:26
Yeah, my parents also divorced. I didn’t have a father with me after the age of 11. Did you have stepfathers? No, I didn’t have any. Literally none. My mother never went on another date. So for me, when it came time to Father My children, one son and one daughter, I was kind of, I felt like I was making it up, you know? I felt like I was just treading water.
08:56
Yeah, did you? Also go with the notion that one of the things I know is what I don’t want to have happen to them based on your own experience as a kid, because that’s also.
David Duchovny 09:08
Yes, that was really all I had to go on. I mean, well, no, I don’t want to denigrate my father, because he was very gentle, very loving man. But for me, sadly, what I did not want to put my kids through was divorce. That was the major thing that I didn’t want to put them through. Because I’d I’d seen that as you know, the the traumatic incident of my life, my childhood, whatever, certainly to that point, and I did not believe that you could do a divorce. Well, you know, I did not believe, I believe you can do divorce better than, you know, there are better divorces than others, but it is a trauma for the child, no matter what, no matter how well you do it. That was over. Is my point of view. I’m not sure that that’s true, but that’s how I felt.
10:04
No, you’re right. I 100% agree with you, and I had the same feeling.
David Duchovny 10:14
Well, I was thinking, I was thinking about you, you know, thinking about that with you today, because you, you went through it. You and Cheryl have been through some shit together, publicly, and then, I’m sure, privately as well. And I’m wondering if, if that was part of you know, aside from your love for the woman, which I know is real, but was it this sense of yourself that, okay, there’s this hole inside me, Rob, that was created by this absence of your father or the absence of this couple. And I’m not gonna I’m never gonna do that. I’m gonna fight my fucking ass off to keep this alive, to keep this whole.
11:05
Yeah 100% and it’s yeah, that’s, that is exactly it. It’s, it’s both love for my wife, Cheryl, who I know for me is, is, is the perfect fit. So there was, I was never under an illusion that the grass would be greener in any other way. So that’s super helpful. And then it was, once we had kids, it was like, you know, I’ve seen how that goes, like you so. And she was the same she felt, and she does feel the same way. So we’re 34 years in now, and, you know, better, definitely better than ever, definitely better than ever. I always people ask a lot, you know, and you do it like a talk show or whatever, Gary, we have a long term marriage. And tell me, what do.
David Duchovny 12:01
You think a little like Jay Leno, what you’re doing right now?
12:05
Trisha Garrett was here. She was saying, getting like a Leno era. And I always like, it’s like, Fuck Cheryl. And I don’t know any more than anybody else knows, but we know how to fight, and we know and we know forgiveness, the power of forgiveness, which is huge, huge, and everybody has their boundaries up so big time, and The peanut gallery and all of our lives are super supportive, but only as much as it matches their values and boundaries. So like, you know, forgiving people’s humanity is like practically, not really celebrated today. It’s like, I remember when my mom got divorced the first time, and she got divorced three times, really, three times, yeah, and um, and with each divorce, there was more of a cheering section for it, oh, yeah. Culturally like, you know, so she’s in the 70 she’s divorced in like 68 for the first time. And that was early divorce wasn’t a big thing. And people like, oh, I guess good for you. And then by, you know, 77 is it good for you, right? And then by 85,000 Yeah, fuck that guy, right? That was the, that was basically the the chronology of it and the public sentiment.
David Duchovny 13:55
When you going back to something you just mentioned. That interests me is, you say you and Cheryl know how to fight, you know, without, without going into a place where, oh.
14:09
Exactly, yeah, we had a great because we didn’t know how to fight right at all. And we had one fight early on. That was the end. And and it was over, right? And she was pregnant with Matthew, our first son. So we had never given we had one in the oven, and we both went to a therapist that a friend had recommended that taught her and her husband how to argue, advocate, disagree, reconcile all of it and it was super practical. Super super, super practical techniques, not the least of. Touch I remember is, if you can, okay, you’re lit up. Your partner’s lit up. You’re to fight. You know, fucking go at it. It’s great. There’s no holds barred. You can say whatever you want. There’s no guidelines on on triggering language, or any of that. But he did say, but you go one at a time, and each of you has to go uninterrupted for five minutes, tape recorded. Do you know how hard it is to talk for five minutes, no matter how angry you are, without any feedback. So what it takes, what it takes away is stoking the flames, being reactive, getting them to be reactive, escalating. You get to Yeah, it doesn’t escalate. You fire your your most angry shot, and it lands with a thud, because they’re not allowed to say anything for five minutes and then you got to listen to it back.
David Duchovny 16:05
And that’s wait when you really need to listen to it back.
16:08
That’s it’s been so long it’s unclear to me. My sense was they would get their five minutes and then you would listen to both of them back.
David Duchovny 16:19
Wow, that’s a good one. It’s really good. And I’ve never heard of that, because what I’m thinking of it must, you must, after about three minutes, you must start thinking, God, I’m an idiot.
Rob Lowe 16:32
That’s right, that’s exactly what it is. That’s, there’s a he had great ones. There was a moment where I was trying to tell him that I didn’t care what people thought of me. But see the way we can make this whole thing go full circles, and it’s amazing. We’re back to back to, like me, opening myself up for a lampoonery. But I remember a I remember saying, and he said, Oh, you don’t you don’t care what people think about you. I go, no. He goes, great. I have an assignment for you. I go, great. He was big on assignments. He goes, Do you know the McDonald’s and Ventura Boulevard? I go, sure do, because when you stand in front of the sign and ask strangers where McDonald’s is. Dr Steve Heller, Dr Steven Heller, he’s since passed away, but somewhere there is a book out of print, I’m sure, called walking stick, where’s McDonald’s? Called Where’s McDonald’s?
David Duchovny 17:27
Well, I love that, but I have to say, and I wish Steve Heller was here to talk about it. Me too. That’s not you though.
Rob Lowe 17:40
Maybe it was then, maybe that’s why I’m who I am now.
David Duchovny 17:44
No, that’s just, that’s, that’s just like, Okay, people are gonna think I’m a dumb ass or is it or was his point? You’re gonna go there as Rob Lowe and say these things, or is it just, you’re gonna go there as a grown man and ask this stupid question in front of McDonald’s. I’m not sure.
Rob Lowe 18:02
It well, I think the exercise was, you’re gonna find out where you are with it like are you? Do you feel like a fool? Why do you feel like a fool? Do you feel like a fool because you’re a human being standing in front of a fucking sign that says McDonald’s and going, where’s McDonald’s? Or is it that you are aware of, you know, the you occupy place in the culture, right? And then figuring out what that relationship is, my guess it was more of that.
David Duchovny 18:32
Well, I think, you know, in terms of full circles, you inviting the roast, is you going to McDonald’s? That’s what you are doing, is when you’re asking friends and family to come and take their shots, you’re saying, Tell me the stupidest thing about myself, tell me those things. And again, that’s a part. Did you go to McDonald’s? Did you do it?
Rob Lowe 18:58
I did. I believe I did.
David Duchovny 18:59
You did?
Rob Lowe 19:00
This could also be a memory that I’ve made up. That’s okay, I have memories. Do you have memories that you that you go, Wait, did I do that? I think I did it. Maybe I talked about doing it and didn’t.
David Duchovny 19:11
Well. I, you know, memory is very interesting thing to any kind of artist. And I, you know, I know you don’t love that word, but I’m going to call you an artist, and I’ve been thinking about memory for quite a while, because I’m I think I’ve got a really good memory. But one of the things about memory that I’ve read recently, you know, when we remember an event or a story, we’re not actually remembering the event or the story we’re remembering the last time we remembered the event of the story. So depending on how many times you’re remembering that how many times you’re actually removed from well, the quote, unquote factual.
19:57
That explains a lot, because I’ve i. I, you know, I, as you know, I do sometimes I haven’t done it a long time because I haven’t had the time to do it, but I do a one man show, which is basically, it’s basically stand up comedy that I don’t have the guts to call stand up comedy, so I call it a one man show. And I tell stories of my life, and I’ve told certain stories so often now, and they’ve gotten, you know, there’s a reason I’m telling them in the show, they get reactions. And I’ve told them so often, I’ve gotten so many reactions that now I doubt whether those things ever happened to me. Yeah, like, did I invent that for the show? It’s weird, but, but this your explanation of we’re not remembering it. We’re remembering last time we told it? Well, if the last 30 times I’ve told it, it ended with a bunch of people in an audience laughing, then it really starts to fucking poison your memory.
David Duchovny 21:18
What many people might not understand, it’s not a one person show. The other person in the show is the audience, right? And every audience is going to be slightly different, yep, a different character. So every time you go out there, it’s not a monolog, it’s a dialog with the character of this audience, this particular audience, and you’ve got to be alive and improvisational in your stance towards the audience, even if you’re not being improvisational in your stance towards your material. And I wonder how that feels.
21:53
It’s why I do it. It’s the best. I mean, your description of it just got me all pumped up. I was like, fuck, I gotta get back out there and do that, because that’s exactly right. A lot you feel alive, present, improvisational, on point, keyed up, focused, and I if I feel that way in traditional show business, yeah, it’s so rare that I want to break down and cry,
David Duchovny 22:21
But I would imagine, I totally agree with you on that. I would imagine those moments of presence, as you describe it, presence lit up, fired up, focused. That’s why we became actors in the first place. I mean, that’s why, that’s why we become artists or or, and we can go back to, you know, divorce or whatever, for why us kind of people need that high. It’s also God, right? It’s also what people get from going to church, yeah, 100 racing the ego, erasing the self, erasing the distance between you and that audience. You know, you’re letting them in, and they’re letting you in. And what could be more religious than that, you know? And I don’t mean to say we’re doing God’s work or anything like that.
Rob Lowe 23:18
But I am David. Come on. I think everybody knows that.
David Duchovny 23:26
It’s just, do you think that there are some people that need that? Or do you think all people need that?
23:34
Everybody needs it. And they they but they need their version of it, and we all need it, I think differently.
David Duchovny 23:41
And do you think you would have needed it had you not, for sure, suffered in the way that you suffered as a child?
23:48
For sure, my my grandpa on my dad’s side was um, a Roosevelt era WPA Public Works, artist, really talented, I have all his paintings. Still have him. And he in his group.
David Duchovny 24:04
His name, what was his name?
24:06
His name was Robert Lowe. And Robert lows peer group all went to New York, and they started that school of art that had de Kooning and everybody. And he didn’t. He stayed and sold insurance, because that’s what his wife wanted him to do, is like, we’re not going to New York and starving. And, you know, he eventually drank himself to death. And, I mean, it’s literally like a caricature. It’s like he’s an artist who became an insurance salesman, yeah, and he did not allow himself, his connection that you’re just describing and and pay the paid the price. And I think, I think people, it’s part of human nature to be connected in that way. And one of the big struggles is, how do people find it? How do people do it? Because, you know, you. Probably did have to support himself or whatever, but there’s got to be another. Maybe there was another outlet for him that he never found. I don’t I think that’s a that’s a it’s a puzzle everybody has to come to terms with.
David Duchovny 25:13
Yeah, and I think it resonates for me, with you, mostly because it resonates for me personally, is and this is something I want to talk about with you a little bit. It’s this, it’s the idea of working for money as well, of treating this art or craft. You call yourself a craftsman, I think, yeah, but I also think you, I also think you’re an artist, and I think you take yourself seriously as an artist, even though that’s the last thing I think you’re gonna that would be the ultimate roast. It really would. That’s the part you don’t want to take. But I, you know, I believe you have that soul in you and and I believe you still have ambition, you know, which is, I think it’s the key to your ambition, really, but there is that money and security that you and I share definitely was drilled into me as a child reading your your book. I you know, I see it even, you know, I’d always say, oh, Rob grew up in Malibu, you know, Rob’s that guy, that’s what I assumed. And I know you. I never, I never had the conversation with you. I mean the Malibu you describe, which is, you know, fringe of fringe of LA, blue collar rancher slash cowboy, whatever that means in the 70s. But bring me back to the the conflict. If there is a conflict, the dichotomy between, here I am, I’m, I’ve found what I want to do. Young Rob Lowe, I’m going to be an actor. But always at the back of my mind there’s going to be the other Rob Lowe who became an insurance salesman and had to, you know, support himself. So I think, you know, when I think of my choices, often, I’ve made choices because the money was nice, you know. And then later on, I like to tell myself, Oh, I found out it was actually about something else, you know. But sometimes I didn’t find that out. Sometimes I’m like, oh, that was just for money, yeah, okay.
27:31
By the way, I don’t, I don’t subscribe to the issue at all that the relationship between commerce and art is somehow a correlation of your level of artistry. I just don’t believe it. I mean, the Medicis supported all of the great artists of the Renaissance, right? Every great artist you can name painted for money, and so that’s one of the show business bullshit things, of which there are many that I have not had an issue with. I mean, you know, if something’s good, you do it and and if you also happen to get paid for it, so much the better.
David Duchovny 28:20
Right, I think I would agree with you 100% on that, but still, I feel like there’s something in me that is will always be scared of not having money.
Rob Lowe 28:41
Okay, well, let me hit you with this, yeah, because I’ve had that, I used to have it a lot, and then one day, I had, like, an epiphany. Might have been powered by Zoloft, I don’t know, but the epiphany was, what does the data tell you? And the data tells you that that’s not likely. There are years and years and years and years and ups and downs and cataclysms and heights that you can all put into any kind of logical look at your life and go, that’s I could have a heart attack. I have a lot of things that is not likely based on the data. I mean, it could always change. Nothing’s guaranteed but trends. Every business looks everybody, every investor looks at trends. You know the trend is, you’re David fuckingDuchovny, that’s the trend.
David Duchovny 29:53
Yeah, but that’s the data. Goes to one part of the brain, the lizard brain, the brain that grew. Up with the notion of scarcity, or the worldview that there might not be enough out there.
30:08
Well, that other, that the other part of the brain, that’s what you got to feed the Zoloft to that part.
David Duchovny 30:16
Well, I mean, looking at you, which I which I really enjoy doing.
Rob Lowe 30:22
Thank you.
David Duchovny 30:22
Um, I see you, you know, when you hit it immediately, and I met you, and I think I told this story on your on your podcast. I had a tiny part in bad influence, which was a starring movie for you, and Curtis Hansen directing, and I was club goer number three, amazing, but I walked into that makeup trailer, and I can see you on the other side of the trailer as I walk. And now we’re talking about memory. So this could be totally making it up right now.
31:06
No, you’re already there with the others. When you see the other side of the trailer, I know where the story exactly, exactly, where the you know, whatever club number three is, right.
David Duchovny 31:17
There’s not a partition, you know, that’s right, that came later. There’s no partition. But I just remember you looking over and engaging me in a conversation. I don’t remember what it was, but you were super friendly, and we were laughing, or whatever, we were just having a conversation. And it’s one of those things for me in show business. This has happened a couple times. One’s with Joan Cusack. She was super nice to me when I was basically an extra on Working Girl. Wow. And with you, and it was like, I don’t know what was in your mind at the time or whatever, but you were making me feel club. Goer number three, you were making me feel comfortable. You were welcoming me to your set. And to me, that’s what a star is. You know, fuck all the other stuff. To me, that was your character. It speaks to your character. Thank you. And I really want to say that I’m not blowing smoke up your ass or trying to do anything. I truly believe the character is is betrayed in moments when we’re not paying attention. You know, in little moments, not in these big moments that we’re taught to look at politically, but actually in these little moments of just common human decency and generosity.
Rob Lowe 32:50
Well, thank you. And like you said, not paying attention because I don’t remember it.
David Duchovny 32:55
Oh, thank you. My club goer number three is probably one of the best in history.
Rob Lowe 32:59
I remember did you have really good glasses in it?
David Duchovny 33:05
I don’t know, but.
33:06
Here’s the way, hang on. I gotta say, okay, um, when I came to visit your set, yes.
David Duchovny 33:15
I sounded like Ed McMahon there, yes.
33:17
Yes, sir, you did, yes that set you did on calculation, yeah, you were, I mean, that’s what it means to be you ran that set in a way where everybody felt emboldened to play and take their best shot. And I just love making you laugh on camera. And that laugh was so generous and like, because, you know, you can make people laugh on camera, and they’re like, Okay, well, he’s, you know, they do account some sort of a calculus, yeah, and your thing was just, like, so welcoming and supportive of me, and I was just coming in for a day or two. And you know, the you’re running that show, the show is all, all you 24/7 and you made it a nice, a nice sort of adjunct of your own personality. I thought was great. I had a blast.
David Duchovny 34:53
You started to do television, as when I started to television. In a way, it was a concession, you know, right? Just like, oh, not getting the movies I want. Couldn’t do TV. That’s no longer the case now, that’s right, TVs are arguably much better than what comes out theatrically, but at least for an actor, for you to start appearing on television when you did, how did that feel? Did it feel like a demotion?
35:26
Uh, for sure, it did, because that’s it was in those days. Now, you’re right. TV has surpassed movies, in my opinion. But, um, that didn’t happen until the 2000 the 2000s so anytime in the 90s, but I had had this again. Goes back to supporting herself. I had two kids, and I frankly, didn’t give a shit. I was like, I was like, I wanted. I wanted to build a life outside of Hollywood. I wanted to have nice things. I wanted to raise my kids in a way that I wanted them and, you know, was like, I used to remember going, what if I was any other craftsman? What if I was a architect? Would I be like, no, no, I simply refuse to design homes like that. I just, I won’t do it. You’d be like, you would design whatever home you were given and do your best at it. And that was kind of the attitude that that I took. And luckily, you know that the landscape change, and I would ended up being one of the first guys there. I remember running into Kiefer Sutherland. Kiefer Sutherland pre, 24 and interestingly, Billy Peterson, William Peterson, pre CSI, right. And they both were like, bro, when I saw you on the West Wing, I was like, All right, I’ll go in and talk to them about this CSI thing. I was like, great, pay me a percentage.
David Duchovny 36:59
But at the moment when you’re doing it before you see, one of the things on this podcast, you know, nominally, is about failure, talking to very successful people about failure. So there’s always the happy ending, in a way. So just take me back to that moment. Because one of the things I’m interested in talking to you, Rob, about is one of the things that interests me in life is shame. You know, because I’m somebody that I’m very susceptible to being shamed. It’s why I probably sometimes keep my mouth shut when I when I should speak up. And it’s a lifelong struggle for me to take what is good from shame, which is usually, well, we’re herd animals. We have to live in a society, and a modicum of shame is probably a good thing to have so that we can get along with other people. We can’t all be, you know, just living in a world of our own rules and our own you know, sense of shame and the other is being crippled by it, or being, if not crippled, then inhibited by it.
38:04
Well, let me hit you with this one who’s talking about shame. So I want your armchair psychiatric diagnoses. So I’m doing st Olaf fire. I am like the man Janu de jour and Joel Schumacher, I don’t know. Did you ever know Joel who I
David Duchovny 38:32
did? I I auditioned for Flatliners for him, right?
38:36
So Joel, who was was a great director, did a lot of hits, directed st Olaf fire and liked me a lot, and wanted to do something else with me, and wrote a script based on me and his perception of me and his experience with me. And the character’s name was the shameless creature. He didn’t have a name, no, it was the shameless creature. And I if I read it, I don’t remember it, but I sure the fuck remember that he had named a character, the shameless creature, after me. And I always even, and listen, you know, then I was, I’ve gone on a journey, a well documented journey of sobriety and all of it, and that was at the height of me being a lunatic. So I even then, where I wasn’t doing a lot of navel gazing, I was like, I’m not sure that’s a really good name. I don’t know much, but I think that might be a backhanded compliment at best, and it got me thinking about shame. And I think I went the other way with that, where I felt Imper I was like, I’m gonna be impervious to it. Yeah. And then, as I got sober and did the work on myself and continued, I realized no no shame exists for a reason. It’s society. It exists in society for a reason, and it helps us without shame, healthy shame, then we can’t have an a consensus on morality, and so to have no shame, you just you follow the logic to its ultimate conclusion, you have no morality, so I, you know, had, among the other things that I, you know, spent time working on, thinking about was like, what, what’s a health, healthy relationship with, with that. Um, because people today is even in your your intro to the question, people talk about being shamed, shaming, and all of the sort of negatives about it, yeah. Um, but there it’s like a it’s like, it’s like an element on the cultural periodic table, like, we got to have it. We just don’t want.
David Duchovny 41:23
Yeah and, because don’t want cultures around every culture around the world has it and, and, and it’s a different kind of a setup in every culture, and they all have a concept of shame.
Rob Lowe 41:33
Yeah, and I think you know what would give? What would make someone blanch today is not what it would have been even two and three and four years ago. And you wonder where it ends. But we don’t need to talk about culture. You want to know about me personally with it. And so I feel like, Look career wise, I had been through, you know, so many ups and downs, at least perceived that I had. I’d come out on the other side of it by the time I was doing television where I was like, you know, there’s, it is what it I had, like a very much, it is what it is type of moment. The other thing is, the material was really good, right? I mean, that was the thing. It was like, you know, it wasn’t like, I did a show that it was the West Wing for folks sake. It ended up being really the best one so.
David Duchovny 42:37
Yeah, and also challenged you, I think, as an actor, in a way, you know, you have a great facility for that kind of spoken work like and I don’t think we would know that without the West Wing. I don’t, I don’t know that you would know that for sure without the West Wing. And that’s you do it so easily, so fastly, that I think people can overlook what a talent that is just to be that, you know, obviously it’s Aaron Sorkin’s articulateness, but you are giving your mouth to it. And that’s not, it does it just doesn’t. The words don’t speak themselves. You know, you have to have a certain kind of actor to do that. Thank you, and it’s not, it’s not something I would have associated with you before that, if you know what I’m saying.
43:36
No, for sure. I hadn’t ever had the you. Nobody asked you. Nobody asked you. I had never been handed that that sheet of music to play.
Rob Lowe 43:44
Right? Yeah, and I think through 12 steps, this is an interesting conversation to have, and we both have experience with with that technology, spiritual technology, yeah. The difference between humility and humiliation, I think, is what we have to learn again as a society, you know, because I think we’ve been trading a lot in humiliation for the past, however long, not pointing any fingers to me, humility is a is a wonderful Part of character, not something you associate with Los Angeles or Hollywood, but when you when you are in the presence of somebody who is naturally however they came by, through hard work or through nature, naturally humble. It’s an extremely powerful person. Yeah, and I think agreed, we think of often as a society, it seems now we think that the way we take a person to humility is through humiliation, and that is actually not the way to go. We only take them to inhibition and anger and revenge. Ultimately, at the end.
44:55
Yes, and I you know, it’s that’s powered by a lot. Of different cultural things. And I the only thing that popped in my head as you were saying that it was whenever I’ve met the the real thought leaders and and whether it’s in finance, whether it’s in the arts or whatever, the real, real, real goats. Yeah, they’re all unbelievably humble, all of them, it’s the pretenders that have no humility. But like, if you talk to, if you’re a director, and you talk to Steven Spielberg, humble, you know, you know, if you’re, if you talk in finance, you talk to George Roberts found KKR humble. I mean, it’s, you know, I don’t know part if, part of it comes from when you have nothing left to prove, or if it was always there. I that. I don’t know.
David Duchovny 45:55
How do you feel like you’ve come by that. Now, I don’t think humility is something we associate with you, but I do so if, if you accept my designation as as having a certain amount of humility, yes, tell me how you came by it.
46:10
Well, I think I learned in sobriety, one of the main things I learned is that there’s no there’s no place for resentment, and that’s a huge thing, a huge key. And when we’re in a world, in a business where we are marked to market every day of our lives, you one can imagine keeping a list of resentments and but luckily, if you want to be sober, you you can’t, can’t have them that. I think there’s a line of thinking that like that’s the the dubious luxury of normal people but resentments get you to pick the bottle up again, or to do whatever it is you’re trying to do 100%.
David Duchovny 47:05
So if, if resentment is a bottle literally, and you find yourself reaching for that, what’s the technology? What’s the teaching, whether it’s your personal history and knowledge at this point or AA inflected, how do you make that pivot in your daily life?
47:23
First of all, recognizing that that’s what you’re experiencing. Because a lot of times it can be cloaked and it can be so subtle and nuanced and full of other things that are legitimate. You’re wrong, you’re fucked, you’re angry. They owe you money. You got arrested, you, she cheated on you. You got fired from all facts, and you can but underneath it and around it, maybe even very quietly, is a resentment. So if you can realize that the minute there’s any resentment, any you from where I sit you it is. It’s an it’s a no fly zone. It’s like a red line. And look, I’m never perfect about it, obviously. And I fucking have, and I fucking have resentments for sure. There’s no doubt about it.
David Duchovny 48:25
Well, having said that.
48:26
But having said that you people listening should be perfect.
David Duchovny 48:31
Yeah.
48:34
It’s what’s that thing of, what is it? You know, it’s having a resentment is like drinking poison and not meant for your enemy.
David Duchovny 48:45
Preparing a poison free enemy and drinking it yourself.
Rob Lowe 48:47
I think, yeah, something that’s something that is true, yeah.
David Duchovny 48:51
Well, I think what’s true, sadly, is that, you know, these lessons that we learn, they’re not cut and dried. It’s not over with once you get it. You don’t have it. You actually have to exercise it daily. It’s like you have to relearn it, yes, daily. And that’s fucking exhausting when you think about it. You know, I think, I think the illusion that you get sold, whether through therapy or 12 steps or whatever kind of self realization that you’re going to go through is that once I get there, you know, then I’ll be I’ll just be okay, and life will just be lived. But the The hard fact and the true fact, and it’s not a bad fact, but it seems to me a fact is that it’s a daily practice in many ways, of It’s a daily struggle in many ways, and, and, and it might be a disservice, you know, to look at all those books on the shelves in the Self Help section that promise these things, that once you get through this particular course, you’re going to be okay, when, in fact, it’s every day from now until the end that. Going to have to try to be some version of yourself that you can be proud of 100%.
50:06
And you have to ask for it. You have to, you know, ask whatever your version of a power greater than yourself, God, Buddha, whatever your.
David Duchovny 50:18
Do, you have a version. You have a version of that at this point in your life that is clear.
50:22
Yeah, very clear to me, for sure. I mean, I, I grew up in Ohio, you know, my parents, my grandparents, were Methodists, and my mom, at one point, was an Episcopalian, but not practicing at all. And so I didn’t grow up with any structured religion around me. And and so I was, I was truly agnostic, like I could, I didn’t believe, I did not believe. It just wasn’t on the table at all. But I always admired, Quietly, quietly, I always admired people of faith. I thought that’s cool, whether they were characters in movies. God, yeah. Grant me the strength to take this fox hole tomorrow, when we charge pickets fence, get up like I was, like, this fucking guys are bad motherfuckers. I want to be like that, but I wasn’t. And then through again, through through my recovery journey, I knew I had to believe in something bigger than me and but I didn’t really. The truth of it is I didn’t have that. I didn’t know I’m gonna pray to the ocean. By the way, people do great good for them, but I feel like so I would pray to God, and just act as if I believed it, and then one day I believed it.
David Duchovny 51:51
So that’s a fake it till you make it, which I, you know, which is like, if I had an acting class, I guess that’s how I’d teach it, you know, you got this role, yeah? Just fake it, and eventually you’ll be making it, you know, it’ll be real. What does God is? Is that God was? It was in an image of any kind, or is it just kind of a.
Rob Lowe 52:12
It’s not an image, because I feel like I didn’t need one. I felt like that would be reductive, yeah? Like, almost an insult. It’s like any and part of it is, you know, that part that we plug into when we write.
David Duchovny 52:31
I mean, I would say in my armchair analysis that at that point in your life, whether or not you were going to find God or some version of God. I think the God that you became of service to was your family in many ways. You know, you subsumed your own ego to and said, I’m going to go to work because I have this higher vision. You know, before I might have been servicing my stardom or my artistic integrity, or my sense of myself as an actor or a star or whatever the fuck that is, but now I’ve got this thing very tangible. I’m living with it all the time, you know, and that must I hate the word, but that must have been entirely grounding in some fundamental way.
53:24
100% it was, it was, then you’re absolutely right. I couldn’t have said it better myself. That’s exactly what it was. And and then, like you say, it’s, it’s a daily you never get there in quotes, right so the next phase after that is grounding and wonderful, and as it was, is you can’t make anybody your god, right, so, and I see that a lot. I see that with people getting newly on their their journeys, or like they do that, and, you know, it’s their relationship with their kids, or their this and that, and that’s great, and it works till it doesn’t work, but eventually that it literally, truly has to be something outside your own.
David Duchovny 54:12
Yeah, and the last thing I was thinking about is, you know, the sense of of shame or of hurt. And going back to the beginning, where we’re talking about, oh, you know, you’re not only roasted on Comedy Central, but you’re doing it at your own 60th birthday party. It’s this guy, glutton for punishment. You know, you have hurt. You have been hurt. You hurt like any other person, but the way you display your hurt I feel has a great amount of integrity and and you’ve never begged for forgiveness. You’ve never you’ve never begged, you’ve never made yourself, you’ve never, like opened up your belly to the world and say, I’m I’m bad, just, just. It out with me, you’ve never made that kind of apology. In fact, your apology has been, in a way, the most beautiful, because it’s the way in which you live your life. And I can’t express how much admiration I have for the way you’ve displayed and worked with and resolved your own hurt.
55:24
Oh, thank you. I yeah, it’s finding the nexus of, like private journey, work versus public, when to share it, when not share it. I think at the end of the day, it’s an unsolvable equation, probably, so you just have to, again, put one foot in front of the other, and if you make the next right choice, whatever that is, eventually you get to a place where I have somebody who I respect and love, like you saying something like that to me.
David Duchovny 56:20
Okay, Rob Lowe business, yeah, so much fun to talk to, Rob. You know, you have those people in your life who, you know, like we said during the conversation, we don’t really stay in touch, but then when we get in touch, it’s like, why am I not in touch with this guy more? And that gets to, like, the heart of some one of the things that I was talking about with Rob about himself, which is his buoyancy. And, like, you know, I think of like a buoy, like floating across the ocean, bouncing across the ocean. Rob has a lot of enthusiasm. He’s a supporter. He’s a lover of stuff, you know, a lover of art, a lover of film, lover of his own work, in many ways, you know. And it’s great. You don’t envy him that, because it’s so generous and, you know, it’s so kind of part and parcel of what this podcast is about, you know, because here’s a guy who’s experienced this share of failure or loss or difficult public situations, and yet he remains positive, and he keeps going and he keeps learning, and it’s like that’s exactly what this is all about at its best, if it is self help, it’s exactly what this would be about. And I have, I always caution myself, it’s not self help. I’m not an expert, and I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about, but you come across a guy like this, who does it, who lives his life in this way, facing forward, and you just wonder if it’s, if they’re born with it, if there’s a gene, if he’s if there’s, like, this buoyancy gene. Can we identify the buoyancy gene, you know? And let’s look at Rob’s blood. Let’s look at Rob Lowe’s blood and identify the buoyancy gene.
CREDITS 58:21
There’s more Fail Better with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now on Apple podcasts. Fail Better as a production of Lemonada media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Kegan Zema, Aria Bracci, and Dani Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neil. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Karpinski and Brad Davidson, the show’s executive produced by Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band. Lovely Colin Lee. Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian […]. You can find us online at @LemonadaMedia and you can find me @DavidDuchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.