The Downfall of OZY Media
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Description
This episode has everything: phony phone calls, fake followers, Kiki’s Sharon Osbourne impression. Listen as hosts Hoja, Kiki, and Mohanad unpack the questionable rise and quick downfall of OZY Media. They talk about Ben Smith’s damning New York Times article, the infamous Goldman Sachs call, and OZY CEO Carlos Watson’s redemption tour. Will OZY earn a spot in the ‘Fake it till you Make it’ Hall of Shame alongside Theranos and Fyre Festival? Listen to find out.
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Transcript
SPEAKERS
Hoja Lopez, Mohanad Elshieky, Kiki Monique
Kiki Monique 00:08
I’m Kiki Monique. And this is I’M SORRY, a podcast about apologies. And this week I decided that after seeing the forensic level detail that occurred over the couch guy video on TikTok that if I ever go missing, do not bother calling the cops don’t bother with the FBI, just upload a video of me to tick tock. They will take care of the rest. And if you have no idea who Couch guy is, just Google it, you will immediately get an answer, I promise.
Mohanad Elshieky
Well, I don’t know who that is. But I know who I am. I’m Mohanad Elshieky. And this week I’ve had so much Mexican food. It’s too much.
Hoja Lopez
Well to follow in your food one. My name is Oh, hello Pez. And today I tried a yogurt Pepsi. And a wasabi Kit Kat that my friend brought me from Japan. And they were disgusting and nasty as hell. But it was fun to try it.
Mohanad Elshieky
I don’t know how to describe it. But like just you just saying the name of that just made me really angry.
Hoja Lopez
Have you guys heard about OZY media? So that is our topic for the day. I’m so excited to deep dive and discuss everything about this weird circumstance that occurred over the past week. So just to kind of go into it a little bit to talk about OZY media and kind of what it is a bit. So it was founded in 2013 by Carlos Watson and Samir Rao, and they kind of both met in what I like to call the Ivy League. But he’s heard or talked about that extensively. But they both also worked at Goldman Sachs. But in my mind, this is kind of the first time I’m hearing about Ozzy in general. But what about you guys? Had you guys had any notion of it beforehand?
Kiki Monique 02:17
When I got to Los Angeles, I started seeing Carlos Watson billboards, like on the sides of buses. But the first time I actually listened to his show was funny enough, because of Jillian Michaels, because she was on an episode, again, talking about Lizzo. And that’s what started me down my like crazy. Like, I have to call out Jillian Michaels path, but she was on there, she brought up the incident again, and that was the first time I’d ever heard of Carlos Watson.
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, I had a little bit of I think I had just known him from, like, some anchor stuff on CNN. I know. He’s a correspondent for MSNBC and like, legitimate journalists. So I kind of just remember seeing him out of the corner of my eye, talking about some impending doom, as usual, but I feel like the story is insane. Like the more that I read about it, and the more that I understood what is actually happening as well as the timeline, I was like, oh my god, this is everything.
Kiki Monique
I mean, I feel like it’s like, you know, what I love about this story is it absolutely has something for every single person like if you watch billions on Showtime, then like love, you know, this idea of high powered, you know, guys going after each other, like you got that if you were one of those people that was so invested in the fire festival scandal that you watch both the Hulu and the Netflix Doc, then we got that too. You know, if you are someone who’s like really riveted by the Theranos, Elizabeth Holmes, like it’s got a part of that too. And if you like cranky anchors, there’s even a phony phone call by a Harvard educated man pretending to be an executive like it literally has something for every single person.
Hoja Lopez 04:08
Yeah, I’m so excited to get into it. So just to kind of start off. I know that there’s kind of a long history with it. But it really comes into focus I think with the New York Times story. So it’s written by Ben Smith, who used to work at BuzzFeed. He’s like editor in chief of BuzzFeed news. So obviously, he’s got some experience in this arena. So they sort of like talk about this conference call. And this Kiki is what you’re talking about with the kind of impersonation So, you know, they’re talking a bit about how OZY has been kind of raising eyebrows for a while with some claims. So I think in general, there’s like a story building around the media company, of maybe some impropriety, you know, but not anything super substantial until this New York Times story. But I mean, what was your impression, let’s maybe talk a little about that.
Mohanad Elshieky
Yeah, I mean, the first story I read was about the call, you know, the Yeah, I mean, just to, you know, like, give some context, Goldman Sachs was going to invest in OZY and I think like, they’re going to pay like $14 million, which is, you know, a lot of money. And then, you know, just to make sure that like, everything is going well, they had like a call from like, YouTube, a rep from YouTube just to see like, what OZY has been doing, like the numbers, the metrics, and all of that, and that is when things went weird.
Hoja Lopez
Weird is such a good word for that.
Mohanad Elshieky
Because here’s what was funny about it is, is they were supposed to have a zoom call, so they’re gonna speak on camera. So the YouTube person, Goldman Sach, but then the person from YouTube said, hey, I can’t log in to zoom. Let’s do a conference call. So you can tell like from the context clues that he doesn’t want them to see his face. So they do the call. And then you know, they were like listening, they’re like, yeah, Aussies doing well, the numbers are great. Everything is amazing. And then they kind of like figure that the voice that we’re hearing on the conference call from like, the YouTube person was like, altered.
Kiki Monique 06:18
Yeah, I mean, the guy you know, it’s supposed to be Alex Piper, who is like the big wig of like YouTube original programming, which is what you know, Carlos had been telling you know, everyone who was working for them like that their show. Not only was it going to be on A&E, it was supposed to be on A&E. But like, they were going to go to YouTube original programming, but they had already been getting millions of views on YouTube. And they just needed this, like, push by Alex Piper to say like, yes, they’re there. They’re a great company. They definitely deserve your money. But yeah, they get off the call. And they’re like, you’re the voice sounds digitally altered. Let’s reach out to the assistant to Alex’s assistant. Now here’s what’s crazy is that they had been given a Gmail address of Alex.
Hoja Lopez
Hold up. Like just like to put a to put a note on that. Already. No. Right. Yeah, yeah. everybody involved is already like, Why does Alex Piper head of I don’t know, originally? Why is that? Like, why are you putting Gmail behind Alex Piper, that doesn’t make any sense.
Kiki Monique
So the Gmail had been given to them. But they were like, that also looks it now suddenly looks suspicious. Let’s not reach out to this Gmail, let’s reach out to Alex’s assistant. So they reach out to Alex’s assistant who, you know, gets Alex my phone or whatever. And he’s like, I did not have a call today, like, what are you talking about? And that immediately now signals like, oh, Google wants to initiate an investigation, because now somebody has been posing as a YouTube executive. This is fraudulent. They need to do some investigation. But that investigation went pretty quickly. It was all within a few hours within the same day. Basically, Carlos through his co-founder, Samir Rao under the bus and was like, it was him. He was posing as Alex Piper. But it’s because he’s got mental issues.
Mohanad Elshieky 08:21
You ever had like mental issues you did like fraud?
Hoja Lopez
You try to go to your old buddies at Goldman Sachs. And you’re like, guys, it’s me. It’s your friend Samir Rao. But I’m wearing a mustache and a hat and sunglasses. And I need $40 million guys. That is considered just fraud.
Kiki Monique
Well, luckily, I mean, the transaction didn’t go through, obviously. So since no money exchange hands, like, in that respect, there wasn’t any, like securities fraud in that, you know, that realm. But he was posing as an executive in an attempt to get $40 million from this company.
Mohanad Elshieky
It just was funny to me, like, didn’t he not think that they’re going to check?
Kiki Monique
Well, you know, the way Carlos really explained it, I mean, in order to like, vet these sorts of companies, he says that we you know, we go through months of all sorts of vetting like they’ve talked to multiple people, and that this was the final step. Now if this was the final step, I mean, you know, I don’t think they’ve talked to Alex beforehand. I mean, maybe Alex was the final step. But either way the only I mean, I personally believe the only reason they were even in that room is because look, they were you know, Carlos and Samir, former Goldman Sachs employees, so it’s all like a boys club, right? So they were like, hey, like, we got this company. We really want some investment all their bros were like, yeah, cool. Like, we’ll get you this meeting. Like, we just need to talk to Alex. He’s like, bet, got it. You know?
Hoja Lopez
It’s like when you’re calling like when you when I leave references for the first like, 10 years of my adult life, you better bet it was my friend Anton answering the phone on the other side going like she is a perfect tenant she has never paid her rent, she like an amazing human being she takes care of my children like Anton Okay, he went overboard but literally it’s like a fake reference. They think that they’re going to get away with because I’ve gotten away with it many times
Mohanad Elshieky 10:21
Have you seen any of the content like OZY media? Because I want to check just to see like, what it was like? And yeah, the most common thing is like Carlos Watson, who’s the executive, the founder of the company, is literally hosting every show. He’s the host of everything.
Kiki Monique
well, and I think that was like the, you know, like, sort of like the biggest beef, you know, when this whole thing was coming out was, you know, Ozzy really portrayed themselves as this Black owned media company. I mean, Carlos was is Black. Samir is Indian, but Black owned media company, which implies that there is black content. But I will say, I had never heard of OZY media and you know, even former employees, they were saying that the classic demographic for OZY was a retired female white teacher who used OZY to stay young, and stay woke and love learning about the world from it.
Mohanad Elshieky
Yep, that is the best description for it. Because the shows are designed and the way they explain is, you know, they’re not supposed to like ruffle any feathers, you know, they’re like, something for everyone. Like, if you’re a Democrat or Republican, it doesn’t matter who you are, you can watch it and you’re not gonna be like, offended and like, I watched so much of like the Carla Watson show. And most of it is just like, you guys are like not really saying anything. It’s just like, it’s sort of what like, you know, following your dreams. And how do you do that? Like, very, like General, like words being used in every interview? This doesn’t seem like good content, like young people would want to listen to it, which is, you know, the demographic to go for?
Hoja Lopez 12:05
Yeah. which ultimately, I think feeds back into the article in the sense that it’s like, there’s weird stuff going on. Like, I have never organically come across an Ozzie articles, something that’s gone viral for that, like, personally, that’s never happened to me. So, you know, I think that this article comes out, even though it comes out on September 27, even though the call happens back in February. So this is like, the timing is a little bit lagging. But when people I feel do see this article, I think it starts to click for everybody. You know, I think that there’s like a ton of people, including employees, including, you know, people that they’ve interviewed, where things just sort of start making sense and part of the article as well. You know, I think Watson’s sort of issuing kind of a Mea Culpa in the sense that he’s like saying, like, the reason that this happened is because Samir Rao was going through some mental health issues. And again, in that same line that they sort of quote him on is that, you know, that they’re standing by him that they’re proud that they’re standing by him while he’s struggling, and that they’re all glad to see him sort of, like, quote, thriving again.
Hoja Lopez
So at this point, when this article comes out on the 26th they’re kind of like Samir and Carlos Watson are kind of back on track in some ways and they’re sort of crossing their fingers that things are gonna be okay and then also as Ben Smith describes, you know, they talk about the board and like what the board is saying about all this like stuff that’s coming out, and then you know, like, they quote Mark Lasry in it, too, who’s also not my favorite man on earth, but you know, I think none of these men on earth and the Board of Ozzy is like, everything is fine. We’re aware of the incident and we like fully support the way that it’s been handled. This is a onetime thing and like they’re sort of trying to play it in the sense of like we did everything that we needed to do to make sure that the situation is sort of like zipped, you know?
Mohanad Elshieky
Basically this is the only bad thing that ever happened and we took care of it.
Hoja Lopez 14:15
We promise.
Hoja Lopez
At this point you know, as you’re reading the article, like what’s coming up for you guys are you like this is all bullshit, that sucks, these people are horrible. Are you like, I need more information? Like I’m just curious where you guys are at this point with it.
Kiki Monique
I mean, I’ll be honest, where I started with this situation. I’ve shifted a lot of my thinking because like, I think it’s a matter of is this a situation of where fake till you make it, just got out of control? Is this a situation where legitimately, this company was trying to, you know, defraud the public and its investors? Or, as what came out in like the most one of the most recent interviews that Carlos did with Charlamagne tha God, was this a situation where the New York Times journalist Ben Smith, wanted to, as Carlos put it, do a hit piece on a company that Ben Smith was once a part of like trying to acquire. And were they trying to devalue it in some way because that acquisition didn’t go through. And I really, as I started really listening to all the interviews, Carlos was doing one, I will say, damn, I can’t understand how this man raised millions and millions of dollars. He has my attention. And he is saying things that I like to hear. And I don’t know why, I’m believing them. But I am. And two, what did he really do wrong? When I really look at the situation, and I really, we’ll get into the story. So you’re really felt like the rogue partner in this situation? I mean, he there wasn’t just one prank call. He had multiples, which we’ll get to. It seemed like Samir was a bit rogue. And I don’t know I am actually; I have shifted my thinking around this.
Mohanad Elshieky 16:42
this. I’ll say this, you know, like, I don’t think I don’t think he’s an evil person. Or like, this is like something that he was just planning to do from the beginning. I don’t even think Elizabeth Holmes, like the who founded fairness is a bad person. I think these people start with good intentions, too ambitious. And the main issue is that they want to build what they call their empire, and they will do anything to get there. And I was at the same boat as you. I was like, yeah, I mean, it’s sketchy, as in like, inflating, like viewers and stuff like that. But I was like, many media companies do that. It doesn’t matter. I think what I changed my mind was when I read the article about the people who worked at the company, and the conditions they were working under and having to work like, you know, 18 hours and like more and working on Sundays, and like, having to have meetings at his house and just waiting outside. And I was just like, well, this doesn’t seem like it’s a healthy environment.
Kiki Monique
It’s funny, because that’s actually the article that actually got me more on board on Carlo’s side, because, again, like because one of the things that stood out was, you know, OZY called themselves, they build themselves as like a Gen X dream of what millennial media ought to be. You know, these two guys, Carlos and Samir, they’re probably you know, they’re Gen Xers. Yeah. And when I read that article, to be honest, I was like, yep, sounds like every job I’ve ever had all my life. Like, you know, I can think of multiple jobs where I was treated like shit, I got called an effing bitch, like, not that I’m saying these things are right, like, but I worked crazy hours. And it was a different time. But I’m not going to say I’m not a better person because of it. And what I see more recently is that, like, that sort of treatment is absolutely not acceptable. But like, I don’t know, if people want to work hard at all, sometimes, like I see, like, I’ve had to have a lot of younger employees work for me when I was in corporate world, and just even sort of sometimes the basic level of like, I need you to do this, and like, sometimes you’re gonna have to work overtime, was like, the amount of pushback I got was crazy. Again, I’m not saying people deserve to be treated like crap, but I was like, living in New York. I was like, that sounds like a Tuesday.
Mohanad Elshieky
Yeah, I mean, it’s very common in the entertainment industry, for sure. And I think where they really fucked up basically is inflating the number is one thing, but like, once you start like, using the names of like, big companies to advertise your network when they’re not involved. They’re gonna come after you, you know, cuz one example is like the, the Amazon Prime thing, where they were like, this is the number one talk show on amazon prime. And then it was revealed and it was like on every billboard, you know, like the advertise that way. And then it turns out, it’s not a show by Amazon. It’s just, you know, it’s just something that you can upload to Amazon and anyone can watch it. Anyone can do that.
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, I think the strangest thing for me too, is like, I hear you guys talking about like, kind of like these, you know, wild evils and all this stuff. And I think to give even more context, so I mean, OZY does have like a product you know like they have newsletters a general news site podcasts like TVs documentaries, they also have Ozzy fest. So in general they have kind of these, this slew of production deals that they are working on. So I think mixing that in also with some of the stuff that they were sort of like over promoting themselves on was I think also a mixed bag because I know they also won an Emmy last year for a news and discussion and analysis sort of category. And so I think as they’re raising money I’m thinking to myself like these companies do have to inflate marketing numbers like I bet you that that’s a general practice that happens across a ton of media companies and again wouldn’t you know more of the things that happened in the New York Times articles that they get kind of called out for what Carlos later called like too aggressive marketing you know, which is basically like bringing in traffic from I guess essentially like clickbait and then calling that traffic and then using those numbers to sell to their stakeholders to you know, to get more people to invest in them. So I mean, it seems like the slew of things that they do wrong is also mixed in with actual content you know, actual interviews with like John Legend and Mark Cuban and Jameela Jamil all kind of like focused in on what we will now obviously call like the charisma of a Carlos Watson so I think that also makes things a little bit confusing is that while they’re overstating their success on like big platforms and using that they’re also actually uploading the show to like normal YouTube and calling it a YouTube original like you’re not alone.
Kiki Monique 21:50
What it feels like and what it probably felt like to them or at least how they excused it is just this exaggeration level you know, they hired you know, Brad Bessie as like I think the you know, a producer, he brought him on he was like a, you know, huge producer he had worked for like Entertainment Tonight, The Talk, he comes in and he came in with the understanding that this Carlos Watson show had been sold to A&E so he was doing the show for Annie and they were booking stellar level guests, I mean, everything and you know, Dr. Fauci you know like the list goes on and on about the number of people that they were getting interviews with again, they were getting these interviews because those people were also under the impression that this would be airing on A&E and then as soon as Brad found out you know, he left I mean, I think it was like only a month he was there. And you know, then you know, Carlos when he had to explain to his staff why Brad was leaving and he was like, well, we had deals with A&E and he was moving too slow. A&E I think in another article said that they turned down the show but he said that they weren’t working on his timeline. He asked him Can I take this to YouTube? So he told his staff so we got this deal with YouTube original programming which YouTube original programming you have to be commissioned by YouTube they are you know, coming to you for content. And what was really happening is he was just uploading the show onto YouTube, which anybody with a computer can do, right?
Hoja Lopez
They get on so many technicalities for this story, like it’s all it’s just like you I can’t just upload something to YouTube and call it an original YouTube has to pay for it like they have to come in. You can’t just, excuse me my little brother Miguel Jose has got a YouTube original uploading pictures of fish and talking about him, no, he just has a YouTube channel. It’s pretty egregious
Mohanad Elshieky
if I like lies that I will tell my mom you know be like hey I made it to YouTube or something and she would believe it and thinks it’s a big deal.
Kiki Monique
And so everything was like this exaggeration. And again, it just felt like this amplify level of fake it till you make; I can’t fault that because knowing what I know about entertainment I also know that is how you attract people I mean, just think about when you’re on Instagram, right? Like the reason why all these people had fake followers for so long and they want it to get a verified checkmark is because like you typically don’t want to follow someone unless they have a bunch of followers or verified check mark, you know what I’m saying?
Hoja Lopez 24:21
You have experience to get an entry level job.
Mohanad Elshieky
And I’ll say this, you know, I think their biggest mistake is that they were very bad at lying.
Hoja Lopez
Way of putting it. I’m terrible at wine you need to stop.
Mohanad Elshieky
because like you said, other media companies do that as well. But they know how to like, you know, really package it in a way that you cannot really prove that they’re doing anything wrong. But I remember like I saw one of the interviews they had with the founder and one of the things he said that they had an issue with Ozzy Osbourne and Sharon Osbourne because you know, they wanted to sue them because the name of the network And, and all of that, and then they settled. And then he said, and now both of them are two of our, like biggest investors. And they are not, they weren’t even offered chairs as part of the settlement, and they refused. And it’s just like, that’s what I mean by bad lying though, cuz like this is can be easily proved wrong, just Sharon Osbourne will come out and say that’s a lie. And that’s it.
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, and this is so this article kind of like says pretty much all of these things that we’re talking about it goes into the numbers into the data. And this is I think when the freefall kind of fully begins is after the article. So the article comes out on the 26th. And then, immediately on the 27th. The very next day, Watson sends a letter out to OZY employees kind of responding to the New York Times article in our favorite fashion he has posted on Twitter. And he has, you know, four little different pictures where he kind of like goes point by point, kind of trying to dispel this new York times article. And that’s when you know what Kiki says, where he kind of brings up the sort of general conflict of interest with Ben Smith. And he, you know, he calls the Ben Smith basically like a bullshit ad hominem attack, like, first of all, he’s just trying to dispel the rumors, and basically just says that the facts are wrong, that they’re using kind of like, you know, old school measures like comScore to maybe, like, assess some of the popularity of all of their programming. And he’s basically saying, like, bro, your new York times article, which is like very vetted, not that the New York Times hasn’t gotten it wrong before. But he’s basically saying, like, it’s bullshit. And he also this is when he really sort of brings up the Goldman Sachs and the Samir issue. And he is he basically called it like a benign thing, because they didn’t actually invest the money. So because Goldman didn’t invest, they feel like it’s like no harm done, no foul. Let’s just leave it at this. You know what I mean? And then sort of quotes also, again, Mark Lasry, so there’s a few things that start happening, but this really rushes in, you know, the same day A&E cancels the broadcast of a doc special that’s hosted by Watson, co-produced by OZY and then the very next day after that, OZY’s board hires, Paul Weiss Rifkind, and Wharton and Garrison, that’s a lot of different man names right there, I’m sure to basically like, investigate, you know, kind of quote activities on the leadership team. So this is a company going through a major fucking crisis. And so they’re responding to that. And it definitely reminds me of like, other kind of corporate overlords, even Goldman Sachs of like, how the fuck are we going to spend this? So that’s where I’m imagining they are at that point. And then, again, they hire those people, the very same day, they ask Samir Rao to take a leave of absence. Watson ends up stepping down as the host of the documentary Emmy Awards. So like, things are happening, right?
Mohanad Elshieky 28:20
And I felt like in like a span of like, one week, you know, like, your whole world just changes.
Hoja Lopez
Oh, yeah, this is within less than three days from the article coming out. Samir is stepping down. The board is hiring these people. Ozzfest, which is in Miami ends up being canceled the same day. It’s like you’re having these major, like bricks or like blocks off of the building. That is Ozzie just kind of falling off of it, you know?
Mohanad Elshieky
Yeah. And then eventually, they close down.
Hoja Lopez
The, I think that happens October 1st. So, and this is also the time I think, Mo where you’re reading all the stuff about the employees, like the employees are coming out with these articles about like, these crazy days that they’re working. And so to me, I find this like moment behind the scenes of this company, where the full Watson like breakdown happens. And he goes kind of on this. You know, he basically says it’s we’re closing we’re gonna close our doors. And that’s honestly when I heard about what happened right at that moment,
Mohanad Elshieky
Who knew that they finally achieved everything they wanted, which is, you know, get everyone to know about them by closing.
Kiki Monique
Well, and yeah, and I think that’s why it’s like Friday, we’re closing everyone knows about us, and I think that’s why he spent the weekend then being like, oh, wow, we just got millions and millions of dollars of advertising we’re gonna re-open. Like comes back button and he’s like, you know what? Just kidding. We are not out of business.
Hoja Lopez 30:18
He basically like all those interviews get booked over the weekend, right after he says they’re closing. And then when he actually does the interviews, Carlos is Watson’s like, no, baby. No, no, no, I’m coming from the back from the dead. I’m rolling this stone open. I’m coming out of this cave and man Jesus sandals to tell you all that I am the chosen one,
Kiki Monique
Which I loved. I don’t. I mean, I don’t know. Like, maybe I am crazy. But I love that. Because you never see that happen. Like immediately. It’s like, I just hide behind my lawyers or my lawyers are presenting like the statements or anything. But he is full on doing a circuit with all sorts of media. And, you know, yes, he has a lot of the same talking points. I mean, he really points out, you know, what the Goldman Sachs thing. I mean, again, this happened in February. This article didn’t come out until September. And he’s kind of like, yes, that deal fell through. And we didn’t get that investment. But Goldman Sachs still believed in us, they saw the product that we were putting out because they were putting out product, they were winning Emmys. So they still did give us advertising dollars. They negotiated a huge advertising deal with Goldman’s. And so he was really just making the point of like, again, I felt like this hit piece came out of nowhere, because this guy Ben didn’t like that. They couldn’t buy my company for, you know, $225 million dollars, which is what he said that BuzzFeed were Ben was working at the time had offered them. And Carlos said I turn them down twice. He’s like, but they had gone through my financials for three months, they offered me $225 million. And now here we are. And now they’re saying my company’s worth nothing.
Hoja Lopez 32:06
Yeah, he’s trying to, he’s trying to come back from it. And I think it’s in such stark contrast from the apology. You know, like that final apology that happens over the weekend, when we all think that OZY is closing, and I really would love to talk about this particular apology. And, you know, he sort of starts it off with dear OZY family. So, you know, he obviously does not feel like he needs to apologize to everybody, he has decided who his audiences. And, you know, one of the things I think that really, I think brings up a lot of interesting things for me is that I feel like he lists off some of the things that he regrets. But I also believe that he does not ultimately address any of the core issues that people are bringing up. So he kind of like, highlights the fact that, you know, goes through a kind of general like, this is what we have expected from ourselves from OZY, you know, we’ve strived to do this with open eyes and open hearts. But we’ve also made some mistakes that hurt our team, which Mohanad this apology seems very in line with the content of OZY, it’s very, like, broad and sort of, like approachable and about very general dreams. And so I guess I would love to talk a little bit more about the apology and what you guys thought about it.
Kiki Monique
I personally felt like he did address the things that were major, I mean, because again, in his mind, the complaints from the former employees, he feels came on as a pylon because they were already down. We’ve talked about this and other apologies when people you know, when you go down, people are immediately ready to kick you while you’re down because it’s a lot easier down there. But in his mind, he’s like, I didn’t feel those things were happening we were a startup and those are sort of the expectations you have as a startup so but he did sort of address just like team and culture in general. I don’t feel like he addressed necessarily like the fact that he was supposed to be a Black media company in that level of culture I mean, he did in some interviews say that he had one of the most diverse media companies but he really again the data and transparency I think to me, that’s the biggest thing because his point is that the way media companies have been operating, they’ve been operating under these metrics that are old and we have a new way of doing things and I was showing numbers based on those new way of doing things. Now I don’t really believe that because to say that you have 50 million monthly subscribers I mean, that is a lot of subscribers for a company. I haven’t heard of until you were going down yes this month.
Mohanad Elshieky 34:56
I mean you can see just like look at what like the videos you know, like they have like 1000s and 1000s of 1000s like views or sometimes like even a million? And then, like, what? 20 comments? That doesn’t align at all, you know, doesn’t make any sense. Because the only way you see those videos because like, you know, you’re just, you’re looking at like, you’re like shopping online or something and then one of their videos pop up and starts playing and then you know, you stop it, but you viewed it, you did not choose to, but your view now. And that’s how they get most of it. And I think one of the reasons he didn’t really like apologize, apologize, because like I said earlier, he feels like this is something that, you know, normal in media companies. So it feels like he doesn’t have a way of saying, Well, everyone cheats this way. So why are we not allowed to do so?
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, honestly, Kiki, I think for me, the apology was pretty bland. Because if you’re dealing if you say mental health issue, according to the Samir thing, like you’re not saying, hey, somebody in our company actually tried to commit a crime, you’re also not addressing, like, you know, the fact that people are saying, hey, you seem to be fudging your numbers, and there’s like an impression of Ozzy that there’s no substance in the audience, and that you’re not reporting it correctly. So for I feel like he’s dodging everything, you know, he’s saying, like, yeah, we have good data, but we struggled to lay it out correctly, or we tried to market but often we marketed too hard with, and he did say bold claims and improper attribution. I think maybe what he was talking about in that moment was the tube, the Amazon Prime, all of that. But to me, it’s like, actually, what you need to apologize for, is a lacks policy and lacks processes on being transparent. In general, like, you’re just, you’re being shady, and it’s happening at every level, and you’re trying to deflect like responsibility from what’s going on, as a thing by saying that you had that you didn’t know that it was happening. And I always struggle when somebody who’s at the head of a company says that they have no idea what was going on. Because it’s like typical to, like, throw it on the individual, you know what I mean?
Mohanad Elshieky 37:15
Yeah, and I’ll say this, and this is not me defending them by any means. But I also think you would never, I would never defend anyone. But I also think like, you know, both of the founders, like you have like, one person who’s black and you know, like, the Indian person and then it’s like, this is, it’s a diverse company. And I feel like you know, with that, like, when you get like an opportunity like that, like owning this company, and all of that, like you know, as a person of color, or like you feel like you only have this one opportunity. And if you don’t do it, get there any way you can, it will be taken away from you. And I feel like that was also like, part of the pressure. Like in the Charlamagne tha God interview, you know, like he asked him if he felt like he represented all Black men or like old Black people in that way. And in a sense, we know that’s unfair, but it’s an it’s a real thing, because that’s how people view it, you know?
Kiki Monique 38:13
Yeah, I mean, I think to me, the Charlamagne interview was the most candid because Charlamagne also admitted that he too is an investor in OZY so he’s got skin in the game and he was you know, really asking him the questions that needed to be asked. Especially you know, when other black media’s had sort of come after Carlos once this all had been revealed because they were like, you know, we have real numbers yet these advertisers don’t give us the time of day. And you know, they kind of referred to Carlos this company, what they called it is like, diversity without the conflict these black other black media companies felt that he was a great figurehead. It allowed these you know, venture capitalists and whatever feel good about where their money was going, because it was going to this black media company, but it didn’t involve all the other quote nonsense that went along with giving money to a black media company, I guess.
Mohanad Elshieky
Yeah, it is diversity that you know, aligns with the white gaze, you know, like, makes white people comfortable.
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, that is for the white women teachers who go to bed at 7:30 and have 8.9 cats. Is that the description that you said earlier? I can’t..
Mohanad Elshieky
I mean, that’s what it always means. Like when you say we don’t need conflict, like, like TV wise. It always means like; we don’t want to upset like all these white people who watch our network.
Kiki Monique
Here’s my thing. Okay. So I mean, I guess when I look at this apology, I don’t feel like it’s empty. I mean, I feel like it’s giving us what I would expect to get from like a CEO of a company. To me, I feel like what’s missing is the Samir piece because Samir has gone off the radar. We don’t know, we haven’t heard from Samir. And I don’t know if that’s because, one, he went rogue. And when these stories started coming out, because remember so we have the story with the fake call, you know, YouTube, Alex Piper. But then when the employees started then saying, well, we have these terrible working conditions. One of the other stories that came out about Samir was there was a woman who was working these crazy hours she was saying that Carlos was essentially quote, bullying her into like, working these crazy hours because he was saying you can’t do it without you. She had a breakdown. And she had to go to like a six-week outpatient mental health, because she had a panic attack, she thought she was having a heart attack ended up in like a six-week treatment.
Kiki Monique 40:41
She had given a doctor’s note to the company saying that she needed time off. And she had to sort of like I guess, sign, you know, something saying that the company could get more information. But her doctor calls her and says, you know, we got this really aggressive call from someone in your HR department demanding to see your medical records. And she was like, we don’t even have an HR department. Like, we don’t even have it. I don’t know. And she was like, who was calling and they were like, it was Samir. And then she was like, Ah, so this guy was not only he was fake calling, trying to, like, pretend to be an HR person to try to get medical records. And so I really do question. Whether, you know, because again, Samir and Carlos are close their buds. Did Samir go rogue? And now Carlos is having to clean up Samir? You know, mess. And he doesn’t want to apologize for Samir because he really didn’t know. Or did he know Samir was doing these crazy things. And that’s why he’s being evasive. That part I don’t think we’ll ever get an answer to because he’s either gonna have to throw his boy under the bus, or Samir is gonna have to come clean. And because Samir did some sketchy shit. I don’t know if we’re gonna get either.
Mohanad Elshieky
I just love the I just love the mental health aspect of it. Because I just remember that in the Elizabeth Holmes trial. One of the defenses that they’re using is, you know, mental health that she had a mental health like, pressure and stuff because of the person she was dating, I believe. I don’t know if you’ve seen any of the texts between them. He was like, very dismissive of her. Like, you can clearly tell that she like really loves him. And he’s just like being very cold. But I’m just like, okay, but still, she did crime and fraud. I’m not sure. Like, we all got our hearts broken at some point. And we all like dealing with mental health stuff.
Hoja Lopez 42:28
I got a weird haircut and like lost four pounds. But she started a full Empire.
Mohanad Elshieky
Like, yeah, get bangs or something. Don’t just, you know.
Hoja Lopez
Oh, yeah. And at this point, Samir, like he got hit on Monday, like the California Northern District Court was like, yo, bro, we’re about to bring suit to you. Because it was I think it’s on behalf of blank Rome and another company as well. Lifeline legacy holdings. And they invested about 2 million in OZY based on what they’re calling false representations from Samir. So obviously, there’s like a lot of stuff going on with this pivotal other pillar of this company. And while Carlos can kind of at this point, give us a little bit of like, plausible deniability. Like clearly, Samir is not something you know, it’s not somebody that we can offer that to right now. And you guys are right. I’m sad and disappointed. And I hate that. You know, when people of color are successful, they have to be the beacon for every other one. And, yeah, when I see a TV show, or something with like, a Latin person, I’m like, this is my one show. I have to watch it. And I don’t care if it’s bad, even though I want it to be good.
Mohanad Elshieky
Yeah. We should strive to get to a point where like, you know, be people of color can have like bad shows and that’s okay
Hoja Lopez
And I will say that is what Elizabeth Theranos did, she did. She was like a female CEO who finally broke the glass ceiling by, you know, being indicted. I’m glad that I’m glad that we’ve reached the point where women can be evil too.
Mohanad Elshieky 44:11
So now it’s time for my favorite segment. Sorry, not sorry. This week. I feel like I owe an apology to everyone who drives a car in Los Angeles because I am here this week. And I haven’t driven a car in like, two years since I moved to New York. And literally, I forgot how to do that. I was on the highway yesterday. Just you know, I was desk to everyone like literally.
Kiki Monique
Oh, well. Did you fit right in because nobody in California can drive I can attest to that. So you actually yeah, you fit right up.
Mohanad Elshieky
Kiki, what do you have this week?
Kiki Monique
This week, I really want an apology from the dinosaurs. I mean, I know I won’t get it. I was okay. Maybe if I go to like the La Brea Tar Pits I can go talk to the Tar but I, I really want them to apologize to me for just not making enough fuel from their fossils, because I drove by a gas station in LA. And it said $6 a gallon. And I just I can’t, I can’t. I just can’t.
Mohanad Elshieky 45:22
Yeah, no. Yeah, they did not die the way they’re supposed to. I understand. Hoja, do you have anyone you want to apologize to this week?
Hoja Lopez
I just want to apologize to my mom. I’m sorry, mom. I’m sorry. You know, I’ll say it in Spanish, but I don’t have to. I definitely promised I was going to call her back within 10 minutes and then called her 48 hours later, basically. And so when I did talk to her, she laid it on thick baby. She was like, I guess I’m the least important one out of all of your friends. And I just want to let my mom know that that is not true. She’s my number one. It’s just you know, sometimes you need to get away from them.
Mohanad Elshieky 46:11
Yeah, that is true. Sounds like my mom. She would do that. But I always blame it on the time difference. It doesn’t matter what time it is. I’m just like, yeah, I was asleep. She’s not gonna check.
CREDITS
I’M SORRY is a Lemonada Media Original. The show is produced by Alex McOwen, supervising producer is Kryssy Pease. Our executive producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Our mix is by Kat and theme music was composed by Xander Singh. If you like this show, please rate and review. And please don’t cancel us. You can find out more about our show at @LemonadaMedia on all social platforms, or follow us on Instagram at @imsorry_podcast. We’ll be back next week and until then be nice, play fair and always say I’m sorry. Thanks for listening!
