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Whitney Wolfe Herd is best known for creating the dating app, Bumble. She also happens to be Meghan’s close friend. They chat about the pressures of launching a business and what it’s like doing it in the public eye. Plus, Whitney explains her decision to return as CEO of Bumble – and what she plans to change now that she’s back.

Follow Meghan @Meghan and Whitney Wolfe Herd @Whitney on Instagram. Stay up to date with us @LemonadaMedia on X, Facebook, and Instagram.

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Main Theme: “Crabbuckit” words and music by Kevin Deron Brereton (c) Universal Songs of Polygram Int., Inc. on behalf of Universal Music Publishing Canada (BMI) / 100% interest for the Territory.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Megan, Whitney Wolf Herd

Megan  00:02

The one thing you can never get back is your precious time and the amount of time Meg that I wasted on being stressed, being miserable, being overwhelmed, being paranoid about what shoe was going to drop. You know what I actually think I would have been more successful had I not been like that. I’m Megan, and this is Confessions Of A Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned and the laser focus that got them to where they are today.

 

Megan  03:10

Let’s be honest, launching a business, it can be so overwhelming, even with the best of teams who it’ll keep you up at night, because every single decision, every micro detail in that moment, it feels monumental. For example, a month ago, I was absolutely consumed with packaging, boxes. That’s all I could think about and I would sit there doing the unboxing in my head. Is there tissue paper? What about the packing peanuts? But they’re biodegradable, and where does the sticker go? And hold on, what size the box is going to be? And no, that’s not going to fit all the skews. Oh my gosh. And then someone says, but you don’t want to brand the outside of the box because a porch pirate had never heard that before. What’s a porch pirate? And then I’m sitting there, I’m like, does any of this actually matter? Of course. It matters at the beginning, but how much does it matter? And the person that I thought, no, the person that I knew was perfect to talk to about this that had to lead the season. Well, she’s one of my closest friends. She’s the founder of the dating app Bumble. She’s been named one of Time magazine’s Most Influential People in styles, women changing the world. The list goes on and on and on. You’ve heard of her. It’s Whitney Wolf Herd. Not only is Whitney a wildly successful female entrepreneur, but she’s the kind of friend who just always seems to know the exact right thing to say when I need perspective.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  04:42

Did you try your best? You know? Like, did you really give it your all? And if you missed the meetings for the packaging and you let it slide till the final hour, then, like.eah, that that’s not great. But if you gave it your all, and this is the way it ended up, like, it’s gonna be good, it’s gonna be great.

 

Megan  04:59

And Whit is an undeniable, visionary. But what I love most about her is her ability to cut through the noise, focus on what truly matters, and be vulnerable in the honesty of what that experience has been like, even when you’re like me and you’re sitting around stress about packaging, you’re in her treat. How you doing beauty?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  05:19

I’m just so happy to see you, and this is gonna be so much fun.

 

Megan  05:21

Yeah, I know me, and honestly, I just want the conversations to feel relaxed and easy. Yeah. And also thinking about how I am just in it right now, talking to people who’ve also been so in it, and have so many iterations, whether they buy peat, or they’re at the beginning of their climb, or they said, great, I’m done. And then came back.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  05:44

Those things happen.

 

Megan  05:45

Those things happen, and then the evolution of that. So I want to talk about all of that. But I think when it’s friends that are on with me, that we have such a deep personal relationship and connection and love, as opposed to starting with just where it all began for you, I want to start with where we first met.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  06:01

I love that. Oh, God. Do you remember when I came to your house in a disco cowboy outfit? I was like, how am I going to meet this iconic, elegant, classy couple, and I’m wearing a rhinestone disco crystal ball cowboy outfit, because that was the theme on New Year’s Eve.

 

Megan  06:26

That was yes, that was the theme for the party you were heading to after you had dropped by our place. And it wasn’t the theme of our house. We were having one of those quiet we have young kids. We aren’t having a night out. Kind of New Year’s Eves where we would have, I’d call it a East Coast New Year’s. So that ball is dropping for our 9pm and I’m going to bed. But you guys came over with our other friends, and it was the first time we met the two of you. And to this day, Archie still will say, When do I get to see the Cowboys again? He would have that first impression for him is so ingrained that even though, yes, I mean, your husband is a cowboy, and yes, you guys like that is a huge part of your life, but to see a real cowboy as a what was he at the time?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  07:11

Two or three? Oh my gosh, he was so tiny. And they were so sweet. They were the sweetest, sweetest, and they, I think Archie ran out in like a Batman suit or some, oh no, like, PJ Masks. PJ Masks, one of those. Yeah, that was the beginning of our our whirlwind.

 

Megan  07:28

That was the beginning, and that was even where I didn’t think it was going to become a friendship that would also be, in many ways, the soundboard for me with work and business, and I was still in such an incubation stage, not even of a brand, but just an ideation of what it could be. And you always, I mean, think about so many times sitting there where you’re like, Okay, let’s talk it through. Let’s make a plan. What’s the business plan? What do you want to do? What’s your essence? No way this could be right for you. And just helping me, where so many people, I think often, will make the false assumption that when someone is really successful, part of that success is because they keep it close. We’re really part of that success is because you share it so broadly.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  08:11

No, I think that’s beautiful.

 

Megan  08:12

So generously no, but it’s true. I’m talking about you like, that’s how you show up. And I mean, I’ve loved that. We’ve never actually talked extensively about everything that happened with you and your career trajectory, and a lot of it is like covered ground. So I don’t need us to go through all that. I think people know your story of going from Tinder and then certainly creating your own thing. But I would love to talk about, even before all of that, before all of that, what was that voice inside? Who was that person inside, that knew you had an entrepreneurial spirit or not?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  08:48

No, I think that’s amazing. And I will say, I do think your story is just you, like it’s just an embodiment of you. And I always think that those are the best entrepreneurs where they just basically, I don’t know. It’s like, they bottle their essence. And that doesn’t have to be a perfume company.

 

Megan  09:05

That keeps coming up that’s so wide said that exact thing. Yes, your essence. How do you bottle your essence?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  09:11

Yeah, it’s like, how do you bring you to the world? And what’s interesting, I’ve always said this about consumer products and technology. You can feel the DNA of the founders or the founder in the product you use. And so I just think that that is really what true entrepreneurship is, is real people solving real problems and putting their real energy and passion into it, and then that manifests into whatever it is. And I always joke, I’m like, I didn’t wake up at six and be like, I want to have a dating app. That’s not how it happened. No, no, yeah.

 

Megan  09:46

Authentically. You knew that there was a need, and you figured out a different way to fill that need.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  09:54

Yeah, so I think it was just always in me. And it’s so funny, everyone always says, like, Oh, I wonder if entrepreneurs were always entrepreneurs. Nouriel. And I don’t think that means you had to have, like, sold out the lemonade stand as a 10 year old. I really don’t think that that’s the true metric of a young entrepreneur. I think it was, how did you move through the world? How did you think about lines and boundaries? How did you think about following rules or thinking outside of the box, and so many of us put through school systems as we all are, you know, we actually get rewarded for following along and doing what everybody else is doing. If you think about it, yeah, like, structurally, you get an A if you answered the question right, and somebody wrote the question and the answer for you now, obviously there’s some creative classes where you’re rewarded for thinking different, but the basic curriculum and framework in our lives is follow the rules, be on time, so we’re not trained to be rewarded to be these free thinkers and, you know, movers and shakers. And I always struggled with that, candidly, growing up, I was like, why do I have to check the same box as everybody else? Like, I want to do things differently.

 

Megan  11:08

Yeah, and I think most people would be surprised to know that Bumble, even you wanting to do something differently, was not called Bumble at first.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  11:16

Yeah.

 

Megan  11:16

Can you just talk a little bit about your original concept, which was an app called merci. And where did that name come from? What was the intention?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  11:25

Well, the original intention behind Bumble was actually not a dating app. It was meant to be a, essentially, girls and women only social network where we could encourage kindness amongst women. Because I was being, you know, certainly not to the degree that you’ve experienced, but I was being bullied on the internet when I left Tinder because of the lawsuit.

 

Megan  11:47

And that was the lawsuit for sexual harassment that you were experiencing.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  11:51

Yeah, when I left the company, there was a whole Fallout, and because of the fallout, I could have never imagined nor predicted the level of attention it got from the media, I truly, I mean, in my mind, it was like a 24 year old, random young woman. I’m like, Why does anybody care what I’m doing, you know, and

 

Megan  12:12

Why do you think it garnered so much attention?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  12:14

Well, I think the issue is we were so insular in our work at Tinder, like it was, like, all day non stop startup world, like, you know, you lived it, you breathed it because of that. I don’t think there was any perspective of how big it got in the world. I had no idea. I mean, I knew by volume and the magnitude of the registrations and the data, right, of course. So I, like, I conceptually understood that this was a product that was growing and working, but, man, I had no perspective of the cultural interest in it. And so when this all unfolded here, I naively thought, oh, this will just be like, between me and them, and it will get swept under the rug, and this will just be behind us, and the next thing you know, it’s the front page of every global newspaper, and it’s exposes in every magazine. And this just doesn’t stop. It goes on and on and on and on.

 

Megan  13:16

And you’re 24.I’m 24 and I’m I’m not in the public eye.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  13:20

Like I am not famous. I don’t come from, like, any type of famous family. So I just figured, like, this will just blow over. So I was like, Okay, I’ll just go into the future. I’m gonna build something great. I’m gonna start over and lo and behold, and I will come back to the maracey piece. But because of the nature of it being technically another dating app, I just got dragged into this swell again. It was like, you know, getting beat up in the ocean and you couldn’t catch a breath. You’re like, oh my gosh, no one wants to leave me alone. So Meg, it wasn’t until, like, 4, 5, 6, years into building Bumble until people stopped with the tinder comparisons. I had to literally, like, outgrow them to some degree to stand on my own two feet, but back to Merci like.

 

Megan  14:03

No, but what did that feel like for those four to five years?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  14:06

Horrible yeah. I mean, I you know, that’s why, when I see the way that you know you’ve been treated in the media, which is a magnitude I’ll never understand, but my heart breaks for you. I’m like, it’s not fair, and it’s brutalizing and so well, and.

 

Megan  14:21

Because you understand it in whatever degree, you know how to show up for me,

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  14:25

Yeah, maybe, I mean, listen, I honestly, I can imagine, but I can’t, because what has happened to you is that such a magnitude that no one can understand. Can I share the story of where I had that revelation when I was walking through the airport in Ireland? Oh, yes. Okay, so I stopped through the airport in Ireland, and I walked over by whatever their equivalent of like a WH Smith or whatever those.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  14:50

Hudson [..]

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  14:51

Yes, and my jaw hit the floor. You were the cover of every single. All magazine and newspaper in Ireland, and every single one said something different. I mean, random headline, random headline, right? You were the cover of every single one of those magazines, tabloids and newspapers. And I had this moment where I was like, and.

 

Megan  15:18

This was a couple years ago.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  15:19

And I was like, holy, oh my what? Like, I’m in Ireland. She’s back home in California with her kids, like, doing school drop off, and she’s the front page of every single one of these things. Should I What are they talking about? Like, there’s no content. There’s nothing to say. So, I mean, I just had this moment where I was like, wow, this is a different beast, I mean.

 

Megan  15:42

But it doesn’t feel different, whether it’s at that scale or not.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  15:45

No but I do think there is so much to be said for your ability to exist even in the presence of that like that takes a very strong cookie, you know, because I remember when I was going through the media storm and being called this and that and this and that at Tinder, I didn’t leave my house for like, a month and a half. I was completely paranoid. I was totally depressed. I was scared to go to the grocery store. I was humiliated. I was embarrassed. I didn’t want to go to a party where I’d see anyone, because you wondered if they believed it. Yeah, what are they thinking about me? They must think I’m a this. I must think I’m a that. And so I like, shrunk into this shell of myself, where we turtle, yeah, I just turtled. I was like, Wow, I’m I’m never going outside again. I’ll just live, you know, I’ll just live in my own isolated world. But then I decided, I was like, you know, I’m gonna rebuild myself. I’m going to rebuild myself.

 

Megan  16:39

But how did that happen? How did you come out of the shell and decide to move past that? Because I think that’s really important for people to hear, no matter whatever scale they’re at, there’s going to be a point where you’re going to take a hit, yeah, and there’s going to be a point where you’re going to have to decide if you’re going to cower, or if you’re going to conquer or if you’re going to rise above it. But it will be helpful for people to know what was the pivotal point where you just said, Okay, I can’t do this anymore. I’ve got to figure out a way. Figure out a way out and how.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  17:04

Yeah, I had a moment where I realized it was crazy. It was almost like an out of body moment where I was reading all these crazy things about myself on Twitter or whatever the format was at the time.

 

Megan  17:16

You were reading it all.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  17:18

Oh, yeah, of course. Because what is this? […] like a crazy I know, lesson learned, but I remember thinking, Oh, my God, and I think I had this like out of body experience where I put myself into my 13 year old body, and I thought, Holy, excuse my French, but holy shit. Like, imagine being 13 years old and dealing with this type of behavior from the kids at school that you think are the center of the world, like, imagine if these people talking about you were the kids you looked up to at school, or wanted to be a part of their group at school, and then you got picked up from school and where, when we grew up, Meg, we could go home with no devices.

 

Megan  18:08

And that was it.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  18:09

That was it. You’re out of the battle zone. You can you don’t get to escape until tomorrow. They’re going home and they’re reading that all night long. And I literally was like, Oh my God. I think I just went through this. I think this just happened for me, not to me, and my entire mindset shifted. And I was like, okay, what almost killed me can make us stronger. I have to go fix this problem for 13 year olds. Like, I have to go fix this problem for young girls and women, yes, and so that kicked off the beginning of mercy, which was meant to be the reason why the name, wow, that was a 25 minute, long winded way of getting to the answer.

 

Megan  18:48

I didn’t help, by the way, but it’s important, but it’s important background to get back to the why.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  18:53

It is, and I think ultimately why I was going to call it mercy is I wanted it to be a environment of thanks and gratitude and thank you, in French is merci. I speak French. I just like the name. I thought it was cute. And the currency of the product, the one like, the core defining feature of the product, was going to be compliments, only, no comments, just compliments. And there’s a lot of literature and a lot of studies out there that actually show you the power of compliments. How, if you compliment someone, you can have this butterfly effect on multiple people’s days, like you, you know, you say something kind to someone. It’s a ripple effect. They might say something kind to the next person. It changes the course of the energy of the day. And so I figured, let’s engineer positivity into a product. Long story short, couldn’t find any funding. Randomly got contacted by my former business partner and investor. He kind of said, Listen, I’m all for whatever this is, because I can feel your passion, but my one prerequisite is that you got to figure out how to do it in dating. I thought he was crazy. I said goodbye to him. I never intended on speaking to him again, but then I kind of started thinking, Wait a second, maybe dating is not so dissimilar from this, like maybe dating is broken for girls and women too, and most certainly that was a correlation to my dating experiences. You know, in high school, I had a terribly abusive boyfriend, and then I just found myself in these toxic relationships time after time, and I realized, like, wow, this is systemic. This is not just about a social network. This is about behaviors. And that was kind of the beginning of women making the first move on Bumble. So that’s the long winded version.

 

Megan  21:21

Also, I mean, you touch on just now having been in an abusive relationship or toxic relationship, you look at what you’ve manifested now in your life with this incredible, loving, sweet disk and be husband, crazy cowboy and two boys. Yes, I mean, it is no mistake that you ended up with two boys when so much of it for you is rewriting the history of what men and boys should be in the world, and that you are the one that is responsible for creating the next generation of really good men. You are married to one, and then you have these two, just incredible boys. They’re so sweet, but it’s so interesting. It is you have a family of boys. You’re surrounded by this energetic circle of the opposite of toxic masculinity.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  23:25

That is very true, and I will tell you, Meg, the one thing I have learned in my journey, and it’s so interesting, because this is exactly what we’re focusing on at Bumble is at the end of the day, none of this is really just about girls or boys, or boys versus girls. It’s all about the way we love ourselves or we don’t, and what I’ve seen with boys and men through my wild journey of running these products at scale, with millions of people doing millions of crazy things every day, I’ve really learned one thing, and it is a bunch of hurt people, hurting people, and that’s really what it boils down to. And so you’ve kind of just nailed it in in this like manifestation of like something better and positive. And what that really boils down to is I had to learn how to like myself over the years. And I when I look back on these relationships, I’m like, oh, I must have really hated myself, because I tolerated that and I put up with that.

 

Megan  24:24

Yeah, and look, I think you and I have really connected on that in a huge way. But I remember a quote from years ago. I can’t remember who said it, but it’s something to the effect of it’s not verbatim. In a world that capitalizes on your self doubt, loving yourself is a revolutionary act.

 

Megan  24:42

I love that quote. It’s some version of that you’re right, or even liking yourself as a revolutionary act.

 

Megan  24:47

Yes, you know, you create a space with the intention, even if it morphed into something that ended up dating aligned the root, the origin was still about you. Autonomy, self love, making sure that you could really advocate for yourself and be in a relationship, or even the possibility of a relationship that’s rooted in something that’s healthy and because it was so authentic to you, that’s how you ended up scaling to the tremendous success that you were. I mean, I’m sure the first time I ever heard about you was in Time Magazine being the youngest self made billionaire, female billionaire, huge. What on earth did that feel like?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  25:26

Well, you know, it’s funny. It’s like at my on paper, richest. I was my inward poorest.

 

Megan  25:36

What does that mean to you?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  25:37

That means that what it took out of me to hit those milestones actually robbed me of my real wealth, the ability to connect with myself, to take time for myself, to focus on my physical, mental, spiritual health, to focus on my relationships, to focus on the things that actually make you the wealthiest in life. So while my financial wealth on paper was this, like crazy headline and like World Record thing, whatever, it didn’t even matter because all these other buckets were so low. And so what has been beautiful? And I wrote a letter to myself over the summer, actually, our stock had an all time low, and I wrote a letter to myself that day, and I said, today is one of the best days of my life. I said, because my other buckets of wealth are so overflowing that it just want to cry. Doesn’t matter. It just doesn’t matter what a stock price is today. It’s not how I measure my worth.

 

Megan  26:38

What made you in that want to write a letter to yourself. How would that become a part of a practice for you?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  26:44

I just thought, you know, I better clock in and I better check in, because I want to remember this day. I want to remember this day. I want to remember that I got to a place of self growth where on a day that should feel like the worst day, in terms of riding the waves of success, right? Things always go up and down. And I just remember I wrote myself a letter, and I just said, this is, like the best day ever. I have healthy children. I love my husband. It’s beautiful where I am. I hiked, I meditated like I just reflected in this moment of gratitude of all the things I do have. And I think it’s a really good reminder to people that you have to take stock of how you measure your happiness, your wealth, and how you define it.

 

Megan  27:32

Take stock in your actual stock.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  27:34

That’s right.

 

Megan  27:35

I think it’s it’s amazing how evolved you are. It takes a lot of years for most people to be able to have that level of of wisdom and an internal compass. It really does. And I mean, especially when you spent a career doing the work, the business work, how would you approach that? Or what advice I guess, would you give to people who are listening that say, Okay, well, you’re saying you you felt so depleted, and the buckets were so low or so empty, and all these other categories. But it’s because of that you were able to still get to this number and get those metrics. And isn’t that the goal? And then you could fill up your cups again? Would you do it differently?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  28:15

Totally, and I think, you know, the one thing I can offer to the world is actually a blueprint of, hey, don’t take this route to the top of Everest. It’s not worth it. The view is not worth it. Don’t do it, because the one thing you can never get back is time, is your precious time, and the amount of time Meg that I wasted on being stressed, being miserable, being overwhelmed, being paranoid about what shoe was going to drop. You know, what I actually think I would have been more successful had I not been like that.

 

Megan  28:57

But can you turn it off? I say this because last night, I was just, you know, when your brain goes in a loop, yeah, those 3am loops, and it’s just like, you can’t stop. I’m now thinking the thing, and how are you going to address that? And oh gosh, with that packaging, and I want the packaging to look like this, and that’s not the unboxing experience I had in mind. And what, how are we going to pivot? And does it matter?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  29:18

I think you have to really take a deep breath and say, you know what? How big of a deal is this? And I would size it up, is this going to matter? I used to use the rule of nine, so I like the number five better. So like, will this matter in five minutes? Yes. Is it going to matter in five hours? Yes or No. Is it going to matter in five days? Yes or No. If it’s not going to matter in five years, like, throw it out the window. Who cares? Like, if this is not going to be a defining issue in your business, your life, your family, in five years, like you’ll be fine. And so when you’re ruminating in the middle of the night, you’re like, oh, but the box came out the wrong texture. Well, is that a problem? In five months? Yes, but not really, because you can switch that box. You can get a new box in the next few weeks, right?

 

Megan  30:05

And will anyone else know what the box was supposed to look like?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  30:08

No, right?

 

Megan  30:09

That’s the other piece, but I think so much of it, especially at launch, yeah, I get it, trust me, I get it, and first impression and the pressure, and you try to compar I try to compartmentalize it and say, okay, all I can control is this extension of my essence and my esthetic and what I want to share with people. But you know, I think in that focus on the details, at what point can you release some of the attachment to it? Right to be completely attached to the process and attach to the intention, but in some ways detached from the outcome.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  30:46

I mean, you have to detach from the outcome. You have to, it’s a little bit like the way we talk to our children. It’s, did you try your best, you know, like, did you really give it your all? And if you didn’t like, if you, you know, if you missed the meetings for the packaging, and you let it slide till the final hour. Then, like, yeah, that that’s not great. But if you gave it your all and like, you really, you know what you did, what you could, your team did what they could, and this is the way it ended up, like, it’s gonna be good, it’s gonna be great. And I also think that, candidly, energy is everything. And I think if you’re so stressed, launching your customers will feel the stress, yes, and so it’s almost like, shake it off. It’s like, it’s, you know, I don’t, I’m not comparing our customers, for our businesses, to the way our children pick up on energy, but there’s something deeply intuitive and brilliant about the way children can read energy. You know, if you’re stressed, children can feel it. I also feel that there’s an intangible, invisible energy attached to launches, attached to products, attached to all this. And so you kind of want to, like, do a happy dance for your products and send them out the window, because, like, that happy energy is going to land in someone’s kitchen counter, and you want that for them. And so I think it’s kind of like just shake it off.

 

Megan  32:03

Yeah, and to infuse the joy into it, the why, the why of it, always in the spirit of sharing something that I loved, sharing a piece of what I love that people maybe hadn’t been able to experience. And I wonder for you, because your boys are a little bit older now, do people know their names? Can I say their names? Hey, so Bobby and Henry are a little bit older now, but also still in the same age bracket as Archie and Lily. Do you find that going through all of this as a mom was different than prior to and your perspective was different?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  32:35

Oh yeah, totally. I mean, crazy different. I think being a mother, as you know, nothing comes before that nothing. I mean, it is it? They’re extensions of our soul and our heart, and their well being is our well being. And so I think it forces you to prioritize in ways that for me, I never did before. I mean, prior to Bobby’s birth. I mean, even up until I was literally delivering, I was opening my eyes at, you know, God knows what, hour hitting it, immediately on that laptop, immediately on phone calls, immediately pressure testing emails, […] stress, like, make it better. More can I achieve? What more can I achieve? What more can I achieve? And I could just, like, burn myself out, right? But I was fine, because it was just me. Like, who cares? It was just me, an autopilot, yeah, boom, boom. Like, whatever. I’ll be fine. I’ll work through the flu. All work through a cold, all work through exhaustion. But when you have these little angels, and they need you, and they need a good version of you, it literally forces you to make choices and, yeah, to prioritize. And so I think the thing that has changed for me is like, I have zero issue now saying no to things that don’t matter. The way I look at it, is like, okay, I could either be doing that thing or it could be with my children. And if that thing is not going to add to the lives and the well being of my children, meaning it’s going to enhance the outcome of the business, or it’s going to enhance the member experience of the business. Like, why would I do it?

 

Megan  34:08

It’s not high value enough.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  34:09

Yeah. Like, no, not right now.

 

Megan  34:11

and you’ve learned to create boundaries, which I think is so important. They’re important in business. It’s so key, especially when you’re talking about in the grind of a business where you have a small team, and then once you scale to a really large team, that they can have a touch point with you, but there’s also a boundary, so that you’re protecting your own energy. You’re protecting the relationship with the team as well. But you can, you know, I’ve talked to a couple other founders about this, the pressure that they feel to be the cheerleader for everyone, and all of that makes sense to a certain extent. But also, who’s cheerleading you? Maybe that shifts once we have a solid family network, as both of us do, to be able to and girlfriends that can fill up the cup in that way, and we both had very similar experiences that we didn’t know each other at the time, with postpartum, yep, and we both had preeclampsia.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  34:59

Oh most part of you, please? We both had that it’s so rare.

 

Megan  35:03

It’s so rare.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  35:04

So scary.

 

Megan  35:06

So scary, and you go, and you’re still trying to juggle all of these things, and the world doesn’t know what’s happening quietly. And in the quiet, you’re still trying to show up for people, and in the quiet, you’re still just trying to show up, mostly for your children, but those things are huge medical scares.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  35:25

I mean, life or death, truly, it’s like, really scary. I mean, I’ll never forget the image of you after you delivered Archie, and the whole world was like, waiting for his debut. And like, I was, you know, either just becoming, or about to become a new mom. And I was like, Oh, my God, how is this woman doing this? Like, how is this woman putting on heels and going and debuting a child in this, you know, beautiful outfit in front of the entire world? Like, I could barely face a doorbell, delivery for takeout food in a robe.

 

Megan  36:06

I was like, please don’t look at me. Leave it down the street. Can I be back in my cocoon?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  36:12

Postpartum is wild. It’s so wild, and it’s almost like one foot in one world and one foot in another world. And it’s a very confusing place to live, and I wonder if it’s how we were raised to think, like, oh, once you’re a mom, like, that’s the primary goal, but it’s, you know, it’s so funny, I like, can’t distinguish if it’s society or if it’s an innate feeling in me.

 

Megan  36:34

Yeah, I don’t know if it’s nature or nurture. I think a lot of you also have to layer in the fact that we became moms in this pandemic, post pandemic culture too, where there’s so much more working from home. And I wonder if it would feel different, like, yes, you’ll still travel for work, as will I but I wonder if it’s I don’t leave the house to go to an office, my office is here, right? So oftentimes Lily still naps. She gets picked up early, and she naps, and she only has a half day in preschool, right? So if she wakes up and she wants to find me, she knows where to find me, even if my door is closed to the office, she will be sitting there on my lap during one of these meetings with a grid of all the executives. And here we are. And I think you know that could have something to do with it, but also I I wouldn’t have it any other way. I don’t want to miss those moments. I don’t want to miss pickup if I don’t have to. I don’t want to miss drop off, and I don’t either. And I think what I do love the most about having young kids in this chapter while I’m building is the perspective that it brings. Because you’re building something while your child’s going through potty training.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  37:38

Yeah, you’re like, hold on, sorry. We’re having multiple accidents around here.

 

Megan  37:43

And both are just as important, exactly. Great. Okay, where’s the Cheerios? Well done. And then you champion your team 10 minutes later, about something that is really high value for the world, but in your own world, that’s super high value, and in her world, that’s super high value.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  37:58

I love that. I think that perspective is beautiful, and I don’t think they’re all that dissimilar. I mean, because when you launch a company, it is a baby of some kind, right? Like there is such an emotional attachment something you, you do in a different way, obviously, but metaphorically, birth, right? Like you conceive of the idea you you work it, you grow it, you agonize over it, you love it. You have all of this energy towards it. And then it’s out in the world, like Bumble, I always say is like my first child, because I just gave it so much of me, you know, and so much of me is in it. And so I think it’s just making space for all of it and allowing all the beautiful chaos to exist. And I love that my children know that, like, Mommy’s going to a meeting, because mommy works. And, you know, I think it’s shown them that, like, there’s structure, and there’s times during the day for play, and there’s times during the day to be serious and focus and get things done, and like, that’s how things progress in the world, right? Like, yes, the way it works. And I also think, to your point, technology is a beautiful tool for parents, because you can dial in and be present and do a great job on the call while you sit in the carpool line outside school.

 

Megan  41:48

So true.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  41:48

Tight? Like, why do I need to be at a desk? I have the same mental opinion in a carpool line.

 

Megan  41:52

So in 2023 you stepped down as CEO of Bumble, yeah. And yet, we’re here. We are a year and a half later, and you’re back in charge.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  42:38

Oh, yeah.

 

Megan  42:40

What is what is it? What is it? That’s a plot twist.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  42:44

That is a plot twist.

 

Megan  42:46

So how does that feel to come back into something that you were I would imagine the emotional experience of making real peace with Okay, it’s time. It’s time. Yeah, things are shifting, and that, in and of itself, was newsworthy, but emotionally, such a huge moment for you, and now, about a year later, coming back into something that you had been stepping away from. What does that feel like?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  43:14

I mean, it’s definitely wild. The way I would explain it is, you know, bumble was my long term relationship for 10 years, and I think we both faced a moment where I think I looked at Bumble and said, Is this my forever or has our relationship run its course, and will will we be in each other’s lives, but in a different way, meaning we’re not going to be married anymore, but I will still, you know, oversee and make sure it’s thriving and make sure it’s okay. And I think I kind of broke up with Bumble to some degree.

 

Megan  43:53

You were consciously uncoupling. I was consciously uncoupling with Bumble.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  43:58

I just needed to find myself. Right I needed to find myself. I think I was confused about who I even was. People were like, oh, it’s the bumble girl. I’m like, but what does that even mean? What’s the Bumble girl? And I was really enjoying my separation. I was, you know, living my life, my professional, single life, very married, very married romantically. But I was enjoying my professional single life, which meant, like, freedom. I didn’t, you know, have to report to this thing all day, every day. And I was exploring the world. Is there another industry I like? Is there another passion I have? Nothing was clicking. It was this, like, I guess I’ll just stay professionally single a little longer, I’ll just stay professionally single longer, with no intention of going back to Bumble. And I went on this journey of, I would call it, self love, self discovery. And I had this epiphany about halfway into my time off. I was like someone meaning me. You. Needs to go and do a, basically, a precursor to a dating app. It’s like, get to know yourself, get to love yourself. Date yourself first, swipe right on yourself, first, before you swipe right on others, because you’ll swipe right on better people if you know who you are and if you love yourself.  So I really had, like, really started to build this concept out, and then my lovely and wonderful CEO, she, for personal reasons, decided to leave, and her path went in this way, and the universe sort of realigned, and said, You’re not done here, like, come back. You’re still in love with me well.

 

Megan  45:33

And that you had that time to almost a sabbatical.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  45:35

Yeah, it was a separation, and now we’re back together, and I’m madly in love with Bumble, and I’m bringing all of my time away with me, and I’m going to foundationally re architect the way people date and the way people love, because there’s certainly no way to make people feel better about themselves by relying on the validation of others. It all has to come from within. And so that’s the path.

 

Megan  46:04

I think that’s such good framing. And so now, with you coming back in with a different perspective, post sabbatical, how are you going to you don’t have to reveal all the secrets, but your idea of being able to re engineer it in a way that even despite those changes, or because of those changes, with those changes, in honor of those changes, how you expand that greater thinking about beginning with the love of self to create something that might be even larger than you had even originally imagined.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  46:31

I’ll frame it this way if Bumble from 2014 to 2024 was about women making the first move. 2025 onward is about making the first move for yourself.

 

Megan  46:44

So good and inclusive in that it is inclusive.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  46:47

Yes, inclusive, and it’s bigger than just women versus men. And I think the blessing of having two boys has really shown me that, you know, the last few years has been a huge learning curve for me, because I was on this quest of, like, boys don’t treat girls well, and men don’t treat women well. And this is a man problem, and this is a boy problem. And I I’ve really learned like, this is not a boy problem or a man problem, it is a self hatred problem. And guess what? All the industries go out of business if we like ourselves. The Anti Aging companies don’t have a future. Botox is gone. All of it’s gone if we just liked ourselves the way we were. And so that doesn’t mean you can’t do self improvement, and you can’t, you know, love to dress up and wear your favorite makeup. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m just saying like we have been programmed to hate ourselves.

 

Megan  47:36

Or to have to find something to fix.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  47:38

Yeah, like we have to always be a project. And so that’s what’s both.

 

Megan  47:43

But also, but with this goes it’s so great because it goes right back to what you were saying earlier about the energy and the ripple effect from the very first origin with Merci, before it was Bumble of the idea of with one compliment, and the ripple effect of that full circle, 11 years later, you’re creating a larger ripple effect of the very thing you’ve been talking about from the beginning.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  48:04

Yeah, no, I think you’re right. I mean that’s how I look at it.

 

Megan  48:07

So it’s your essence.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  48:08

This is what it all comes back to. It’s just putting your goodwill and and your problem solving energy into the world, and it enhances and I think what’s funny about what you were saying earlier is how you were like, you know, oh, I’m stressing in the middle of night, or this or that. I think my piece of advice, if I can give it, is like, always, you’re such an amazing hostess. And when you go to your home, you’re like, you just like, engulfed in love and coziness and yumminess, like both from just like the energy and the surroundings, but like the things you feed us, and like the way you treat us, and I think like just carry you through, and the rest writes itself.

 

Megan  48:48

I love that so much. I have all these notes. I haven’t looked down, I haven’t looked at any of my notes. I’m sure I’ve missed all sorts of points, but I mean, I’ve just loved being able to chat, because I think it’s our friendship coming through, but also just who we are, as moms, as women, as people who’ve gone through our own unique experiences, but are able to see it through a lens of, how can I help other women specifically, but other people who are also on their same search for what they want to put out into the world authentically with their essence, and how you reorg yourself?

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  49:21

Yeah, you gotta do it. We gotta take stock. I mean, imagine if they had given us a bottle of rose for this conversation.

 

Megan  49:28

Oh my gosh. I was thinking that I’ll just send wine and we’ll just chat.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  49:35

If anyone’s ever wondering what lunch between us looks like. This is basically it with like a couple glasses of wine, and it’s exactly, this is basically it.

 

Megan  49:44

It’s exactly, I appreciate you so much. This was awesome.

 

Whitney Wolf Herd  49:48

I am here for you, whatever you need, anytime thank you, and everyone’s gonna get exposed to the real loving essence of you. And I’m excited for that.

 

Megan  49:57

Oh my gosh, you’re the best. I’m proud of you, thank you.

 

Megan  50:06

Next week, we’re speaking with a founder who’s turned championing girls and women into her life’s work. Oftentimes, women are having to downshift or make choices, and the way we’ve tried to solve this problem is say, well, the problem is women, right, like you got to get more confidence. You got to power pose. You know your way before a meeting, you got to get a mentor, right? It’s all about you’re wrong. You’re broken when really it’s just structural.  Can you guess who it is? I’ll see you then.

 

CREDITS  50:44

Confessions Of A Female Founder is a production of Lemonada Media. Created and hosted by Megan. Our producers are Kathryn Barnes and Hoja Lopez. Kristen Lepore is our senior supervising producer. Executive producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Megan. Mix and sound design are by Johnny Vince Evans. Rachel Neel is our VP of new content and production, and Steve Nelson is our SVP of weekly content and production. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. There’s more Confessions Of A Female Founder with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content when you subscribe in Apple podcasts, you can also listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. We’ll see you next week.