Subscribe to Lemonada Premium for Bonus Content

In this dynamic episode, Meghan sits down with Reshma Saujani, a tenacious founder who’s built two successful nonprofits that close the gender gap for women: first, Girls Who Code and now, Moms First. Meghan met Reshma years ago when Girls Who Code was expanding into the UK. Here, they reunite to talk about redesigning workplaces for women and how to make the hard choice to put your health (and yourself) before your work.

Follow Meghan @Meghan and Reshma @reshmasaujani on Instagram. Stay up to date with us @LemonadaMedia on X, Facebook, and Instagram.

For a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this and every other Lemonada show, go to lemonadamedia.com/sponsors.

Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our shows and get bonus content. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Main Theme: “Crabbuckit” words and music by Kevin Deron Brereton (c) Universal Songs of Polygram Int., Inc. on behalf of Universal Music Publishing Canada (BMI) / 100% interest for the Territory.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Megan, Next Guest, Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Reshma Saujani, Speaker 1

Megan  00:35

I’m sitting there the next day. I’ve pissed off everybody, I’m broke, and no one’s calling me. Oh no, no one’s calling me. I’m Megan, and this is Confessions Of A Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. Behind the scenes, there are so many struggles that female founders don’t post about. They don’t even talk about the moments when you feel broken, when things don’t go as planned, when simply showing up feels like a huge feat, and yet we do it, we push through, we keep smiling, we keep going out there. You get on the panel, you do the thing. And at a certain point, though, it does raise the question, how do we redefine what it means to be a female founder without just running ourselves into the ground? And if that happens, we’re gonna lose a generation of social entrepreneurs that we desperately need to continue these fights. And so we gotta show them a different way. We got to do it a different way. Today’s episode is about fighting for what you believe in, and all the highs and the lows that come with it. And that’s precisely why I wanted to talk to Reshma Saujani. She founded not one but two incredible nonprofits that help close the gender gap for women, first with Girls Who Code, and now with Mom’s First, she’s lived the pressures of building a business, both behind the scenes and in the spotlight, and her candid take on leading a movement, it’s going to make you rethink how to fight for what you believe in. Let’s get into it.

 

Megan  04:24

Welcome.

 

Reshma Saujani  04:25

Thank you.

 

Megan  04:26

I’m so happy you’re here. It’s been a while.

 

Reshma Saujani  04:28

It’s been a long time I saw you, dear, different circumstances, long time.

 

Megan  04:33

Yes, life was diff well, I mean, we had met 20, 2018 I guess.

 

Reshma Saujani  04:40

You were very pregnant.

 

Megan  04:41

Oh my gosh, yes. It would have been 2018 pregnant with Archie at Kensington Palace. Yes. How did you end up at that meeting with me?

 

Reshma Saujani  04:50

Because you’re an amazing human.

 

Megan  04:52

Oh, my God.

 

Reshma Saujani  04:53

It’s true. And we were bringing Girls Who Code to England, and we were looking to expand. And and you generously met with me.

 

Megan  05:03

Oh, that’s kind to say, generous. I was thrilled to learn more at the time, I would say even the idea of coding and stem Do you remember? That’s when things were transitioning from stem to steam?

 

Reshma Saujani  05:14

Yep.

 

Megan  05:14

It was so new. And it was definitely new for me. But I remember you came in, we sat in the audience room, and I just said, Tell me all about it, but, but it was such a great sit down, because it was an eye opener for me of so many other ways in which women were showing up for young girls. And I’m curious to get into how that became your focal point. But can we just start well before that, can we go way, way back, take us back to the beginning?

 

Reshma Saujani  05:44

So you know, for me, my my parents came here as refugees. My mother was actually several months pregnant with my sister. When they came, they had no money, and the Catholic Church took them in. fed them, sheltered them, clothed them. So I’ve always had this like, deep like, love for this country and from for that spirit, right, of of empathy, that we shelter and that we love and then we care for those who have been displaced. So I that it was always in my blood that I wanted to give back to the country. I wanted to do public service, and I wanted to, you know, fight for those who didn’t have a voice.

 

Megan  06:28

Which is beautiful and also completely confounding when you know more about your upbringing, how you were bullied, how you were mistreated, how you were beaten up, for a lot of people, that would devolve into No, no, I’m not showing up in the spirit of love anymore. I’ve been too bruised and beaten. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because you grew up in Chicago, and what was it like?

 

Reshma Saujani  06:56

You know, no one’s ever asked me that before, because you’re right, I could have turned to anger and hate, given what I was going through, and I went the opposite way. You know, my parents came here in the 70s. Grew up in like a working class town. You know, outside of Chicago, Illinois, there were no brown people. And you know, my mom was still wearing her sari and her bindi on her head, going to the Kmart, right, still eating Indian food. And, you know, back then, it was all about assimilation. You know, my father went to toastmasters to get rid of his accent. Like he literally changed his name from Mukund to Mike. He still signs my birthday cards like, love Mike. But back then, it’s like, if you wanted to fit in, you had to just change like you I mean, and that’s kind of how we felt, too, right? I remember being so mad Megan that, like, my mom named me Reshma, like, why didn’t you just name me Rita or Rachel? Because everyone be like, how do I say it, and, you know, we’d have a lot of money. So we were wearing the Kmart shoes and the wrong jeans and like, the wrong shirt, and remembers all, like, you know, forensic sweatshirts and like, feathers and like, you know, the 90s, like.

 

Megan  08:08

Oh, the the sparkly BB shirt that said BB and sequence across the front. I saved up for that yes.

 

Reshma Saujani  08:14

Totally, we had none of that. We like the knockoff version, you I mean, of all of that. But so I really tried to be white like I tried to be those other girls and deny my culture and all of it. And, you know, every day, I would get made fun of and bullied. And one day, I don’t know, there was nothing special about that day, Megan, I just when challenged to go to the to the back of the school, you know, for a fight I was, I was like, okay, instead of just getting on the bus, wow, and that day changed my life, right? Because I got beat up pretty bad. But I also realized I’m not white, and I’m never gonna be, and I have a responsibility to actually teach people about difference, like, literally, I went to freshman year of high school and started a club called PRISM, like the prejudice reduction interested students movement. Horrible name. I got better at that.

 

Megan  09:09

It’s quite the acronym, it really, but it’s definitely high impact for a 12 or 13 year old girl to come up with that. It says a lot.

 

Reshma Saujani  09:18

Yeah, I guess it says so, yeah. I think I turned to hope. I turned to hope.

 

Megan  09:23

I mean, honestly, it just says so much about your character to look yourself in the mirror and really see who you are. But even from that moment, you’re still at a crossroads where you could have chosen, you know, what, I am going to be an entrepreneur, and I’m going to build a business, and I’m going to be so successful, but instead, your activist spirit is what came through, always wanting to affect change.

 

Reshma Saujani  09:48

Yeah, I realized early on what my gift was. So I started going to Model UN and debate, and I realized, oh, I can give a speech like I can communicate. And I actually feel at home on stage. And I’m thinking the way to make a difference is to run for office. I’m in love with Dr King, Mahatma Gandhi, John F Kennedy. Like, back then I thought politics, politics, and you can, you know, how to communicate, like, that’s where you go. And so I, you know, volunteer on my first campaign, the 92 Clinton campaign, fell in love with politics in Washington, and Hillary Clinton and the whole thing. And I’m looking at all these people like a Hillary like, you know, and they all got a degree from Harvard, and they’re all lawyers, and so maybe that’s my path, right? I’m going to Yale Law School. That’s where I’m going. I apply three times. Don’t get in, you know, I mean, finally get in.

 

Megan  10:41

But not just finally get in. Didn’t you make a plea to the dean? Didn’t you just really go in? What did you say?

 

Reshma Saujani  10:49

Well, it’s so. I had this mentor, Leon Higginbotham, Jr. He was like the first federal black jurist on the Third Circuit Court, and he becomes my mentor every Sunday I am at him and Evelyn’s house listening to, like, the heroes of the civil rights movement, and it is just, I love Leon, and Leon’s like, oh, girl, you’re getting in, like, when you go to your law school, when you walk in, there’s my photo, like, I got you. And he dies, and he doesn’t write my recommendation letter.

 

Megan  11:20

Oh, I didn’t okay.

 

Reshma Saujani  11:22

Before he dies. Okay? So I’m devastated, and I don’t have a racial and it’s like, it’s his funeral. Everybody is there. And at the funeral, I meet the assistant of the Dean of via law school, and kind of like, she feels sorry for me. And she was like, I’ll get an appointment for you. And she kind of squeezes me in Dean Crom and schedule, and I go to New Haven and make my pitch, and Dean Krom is like, Listen, I’ll make you a deal. Like, you’ve gotten into all these other schools, like I got into Penn and Northwest, like, right? Like, really good schools. And he’s like, I’ll make you a deal. Like, just go at any of those schools, and if you get into the top 10% I’ll let you come to you.

 

Megan  12:10

Oh, wow.

 

Reshma Saujani  12:11

So I go to Georgetown. I don’t make one friend. I study every single day. I am just super focused, right? Like, getting straight A’s so I can go to Yale, but it was such a lesson Megan and like I was just so narrowly focused that I had to have that Yale Law degree so I could go do the things that I wanted to do, not understanding that I was just letting life and its experiences just pass me by. What happens then is that Bush v Gore happens, and I’m thinking, I’m going into public interest, right? I’m going to go work at the end LACP, right? Like, civil rights, that’s what I want to do. Bush wins. No one’s going to DC, you know? And I’m like, oh, and I’m $300,000 in student loan debt, I guess I’m going to go work for the man in New York at a law firm, which I hate. And that’s when I run for office. Take this crazy chance right in running in a primary I was 33 years old. My name was Rachel Smith, Johnny. There had never been a South Asian woman to ever run before I run for United States Congress. I lose like, spectacularly. I mean, it’s like, not even close, but I had, like, convinced John Legend to do like, two concerts for me, like Jeff Dorsey, like I had, like, hustled the whole world right into thinking that, like I’m winning this upstart race, and it is not even close, like I’m crushed. And the biggest kind of aha for me was I’m sitting there the next day. I’m in my like 400 square foot Lower East Side apartment. I’ve pissed off everybody in the Democratic establishment because I didn’t wake my turn. I ran against another Democrat. I’m broke because I spent a year running for office instead of working, and no one’s calling me. Oh no, no one’s calling me. But the biggest kind of, I think, moment that changes my life is I realized, like, Oh my God. Like, this was the thing that I thought that I was supposed to do, run for office, be a politician, be a public servant. The very thing that I had been driving towards Yale, all of that was about this destination. It doesn’t happen for me, but when I wake up the next morning, I’m like, oh, like, I’m not broken, yeah, this sucks, but like, I’m not broken, huh? I think we think as women, that when we try something, especially something we want so bad and it doesn’t work out, that it will break us, and we won’t be able to, like, wake up the next day. We won’t be able to continue on, forget about, like, the humiliation and the judgment and all that. I think there’s this. Sense that, like failure will cripple you.

 

Megan  15:03

Right, that it will break you as opposed to break you open for the possibility of more.

 

Reshma Saujani  15:08

Exactly, and so now the thing doesn’t happen, and I’m like, huh, there’s a lot of things that I should maybe fail at and try and learn, and that’s the path.

 

Megan  15:20

Yeah, and when it breaks open, it leaves space and room for so much more, love, growth, resilience to all pour in.

 

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  15:40

Yeah.

 

Megan  17:29

Why stem what made you realize how big of a deal it was?

 

Reshma Saujani  17:34

I mean, I always say, like, if I had applied to be the CEO of Girls Who Code, I wouldn’t have gotten the job. I didn’t code. I’d never coded before. Yeah, right. Like, I majored in poly science, Speech Communications, and the only thing I’d ever built was a failed campaign.

 

Megan  17:49

And you don’t really think of coding as the person who’s on the stage giving the speeches. You think of it as the person who’s behind the keyboard.

 

Reshma Saujani  17:55

Yeah and you know, those coding jobs, they paid a lot, like $120,000 a year. And when I saw that girls and girls of color, poor girls, were not going into these fields, in my mind, like they weren’t going into the fields that would help them, like, march up into the middle class and change their entire trajectory for them and their families. And that’s what, like, drove me to coding and technology.

 

Megan  18:21

Well, and the creation for access, such a different way, right? For that next step that they may have otherwise not even had a window to peer in through, to know that that was a room that was worth going into, yeah.

 

Reshma Saujani  18:33

And you’re working on this now, also, like the things that they’re going to create, like bullying, right? Like, what are they doing on these problems that they experience, right, whether it’s bullying, whether it’s health, whether it’s sexual harassment, right, like they’re if they know how to code, they can build tools that are going to help solve problems that are faced by women and girls.

 

Megan  18:54

Completely and now, as we look at all the different modal and AI and everything else to really get ahead of How they can be integral in the creation of those next phases of tech. So, but what was the big break with Girls Who Code? When did people start paying attention? And you went, oh, I’m actually on to something here.

 

Reshma Saujani  19:12

So okay, I thought nonprofits are slow. They don’t get anything done. Like nothing happens. Like it’s just, it’s not for me, right? Like, I want to be where the action is. I want to be where the real change is. So I ran girls who coded, now mom’s first, like a tech company. Oh, interesting. Big scale, big numbers, hard driving, big change, KPIs, destination, where we want to go with, like, essentially, like a non profit lens. So it was always kind of like unicorns and rainbows, I’ll be honest, right? Like, sometimes you have an idea and the world just collides to make that happen. And so Girls Who Code was a little like that right from the beginning. People like, oh yeah, this needs to exist.

 

Megan  20:00

But we all also know that fundraising for nonprofits can be really hard. I mean, maybe not as hard with unicorns and rainbows there, but it can be hard. Yeah. What do you think one tip is for people who are starting specifically a nonprofit, how do you get funders?

 

Reshma Saujani  20:15

So here’s the thing. I very early on at Girls Who Code got Jack Dorsey to support it. And back then, everybody was like, oh, Jack’s doing it great. And I’ll stay with moms first it was you, like, very early on, you were like, oh, paid leave this movement. Moms, yes. And I think the thing is, for people and entrepreneurs, it does help to get an early adopter, especially one that people admire, right, and that people want to follow and see as, like, a guide post. And so, yeah, for Girls Who Code, it was really Jack. And, you know, for moms, first it was, it was you and Melinda.

 

Megan  20:49

Oh wow, that’s, I didn’t realize that. That’s so I’m, I’m glad that I could be additive in any way. I think one of the pieces of advice I was given early on, maybe not even advice, but Insight was when you’re looking at funding for a nonprofit, or even in business building, but specifically in the nonprofit sector, yes, you want to get one hook, because it makes other people feel confident coming in. But in those conversations, if you go to someone and you ask for money, they’re likely going to give you advice. And if you go to someone and you ask for advice, they’re much more likely to give you money.

 

Reshma Saujani  21:24

That’s a good tip. All right, I’ve taken that one to the bank.

 

Megan  21:29

Just go for advice, because otherwise people aren’t immediately feeling pressurized. You’re just going for advice, and then if it makes sense for them, they’ll offer up what they think you might need, as opposed to going in with an ask. So different, small distinction, but it makes a big difference. I think I really like that. Yeah, you have this quote that I love, that was, leaders cannot, or should not stay in organizations forever. Yes, you can’t stay innovative if you have the same person leading the movement forever. Such an interesting insight, because a lot of people, I think, in that same pursuit of success as we’re talking about, especially as female founders, stepping away could feel like failure, as opposed to the choice, the act of choice you make to say, No, I’m not just doing this for myself. I’m doing this for this organization.

 

Reshma Saujani  22:15

So, you know, I knew it was time to step away from girls who code one, because I actually don’t think anyone should run anything for more than eight years. And then two, this energy I was feeling around motherhood and moms first, and this need to fight for childcare and paid leave, like there was something I knew that I wanted to do. So I had this amazing CEO who’s now our CEO, Dr Tarika Barrett, had always wanted her to run the organization. And so it’s like middle of COVID, I know it’s time. And one, I know if I tell anybody that I want to step down, including my husband, he’s going to talk me out of it. So I don’t tell anybody I get on a train. I like, basically say, Tariq, I need to meet with you. And I’m like, I’m ready, and I think you’re ready. And she said, All right, let’s go. So one, I think it was so important for me to pick a successor, especially a woman of color, and give her the opportunity of, like, the fruits of my labor, right? Because building girls with code almost killed me. Megan, you know, it was always on a plane. I was always just hustling, but I had built something that I knew was sustainable because I had rebuilt it during the pandemic. I had money in the bank, right? So, like, oftentimes, if you’re a new CEO taking over an organization, you’re terrified, like, fundraising is hard. So I knew I could give her something that, like had legs, but it was such an interesting lesson, because the day we were transitioning, my assistant said to me, okay, I’m gonna get you a conference room, and you’re gonna get so many emails, so many people are gonna call you that we just, we gotta block out three hours. So we take and I send the email. She’s in one room. I’m in one room. Press send, crickets.

 

Megan  23:54

Oh no.

 

Reshma Saujani  23:54

Crickets, Tarika calls me a couple hours and she go, Oh my God. Like, I just, it’s been so amazing, the amount of emails and the phone calls, which is, she’s like, how’s it been for you? And I didn’t want to tell her, right, that no one had called me, but it was such an important lesson on like this is why people don’t give up power, because when you don’t have power, you’re not important anymore, right? So it’s so easy to hold on to it, because your identity is so caught up in it, but that, to me, was part of the work. Right, from an ego perspective, being able to let it go, give somebody else that light, knowing that like it was going to actually diminish my power, right, my resources, my access. But that was the point.

 

Megan  24:41

I mean, that is, that is a lot of I’m not gonna say work, I’m talking about self work. That is a lot of growth that takes people a tremendous amount of time to settle into the confidence to be able to do that and to not feel rattled when the phone’s not ringing. To not feel rattled when you’ve stepped out of the light, so to speak. But as you step out of the light, you’re actually stepping into your own light in a different way, and creating space for someone else to be in the light, which is probably the larger purpose of all of us being here. That’s so beautiful, so true. And I’ll bring this up if you’re comfortable talking about because I know you’ve spoken publicly about, as you were doing Girls Who Code all the interpersonal things that are happening for you at that time and the miscarriages that you’ve experienced. I’ve spoken about the miscarriage that we experienced, yeah, and I think in some parallel way, when you have to learn to detach from the thing that you have so much promise and hope for, and to be able to be okay at a certain point, to let something go, something go, that you plan to love for a long time.

 

Reshma Saujani  25:54

That’s does that’s really, yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like you’re like, reading my diaries, like, that’s really insight. It’s really insightful. Because I don’t think anyone’s seen it that way, like, said it that way for me, but that’s right, because, you know, here I was for so many years, like, trying to get pregnant, having miscarriages, because I had autoimmune issues, and I got into this really, like, kind of scary habit where I would be at a doctor’s office and they’d be like, you have no heartbeat, and I should have just gone home and gone to sleep and curled up with my husband, but I would just take a breath, and I would Just show up in a living room, in a stage, and just perform. And oftentimes I was like performing in front of these children that I desperately wanted, and I just got really good at that, but it was eating me up inside. And it wasn’t until my second where I was again, on this path of serial miscarriages. And I remember just one day it was like, I was in California. I had to get on a plane and go to Utah to speak to, like, I don’t know, like 1000 girls, and like the governor, and like, that morning get a call from the doctor, and they’re like, Okay, your HCG levels are not going up. You’re gonna miscarry. And I just got on a plane, and I was sitting there in front of these girls, and heart was just breaking, and I remember saying, This is it. I’m not doing it again. And I went to my team, and I said guys, and I’d never told them I was going through this. I mean, they kind of knew, because they would see these doctor’s appointments on my schedule, but I never schedule. But I never, like just said I need, and I said I can’t do this anymore. I need you. I need you to take over. I need you to run this organization. I just need, I need a month. I need a couple months just to just breathe.

 

Megan  27:58

That takes so much courage to say it.

 

Reshma Saujani  28:01

It did, and it but it’s right. Is because I had to detach, because I felt like I was letting the girls down. And how ironic is that right in my in my quest to become a mother, that just all i You have this beautiful line that I pulled all the time, the most important title I have is mom, and I so desperately wanted that title.  You know?

 

Megan  28:25

I do.

 

Reshma Saujani  28:25

And I just it was the irony of it, all you know was a lot.

 

Megan  28:31

Yes, but that in in the journey, how many layers come up, and then you can start to recognize those patterns in your business, in your life, in you know, I was, what is that book? I actually think I have it here. My friend just sent me this passage yesterday. It’s called The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and The Horse. It’s a children’s book that came out of the UK a couple years ago. But at any rate, beautiful illustrations. I have to get it for you. But the quote is, what is the bravest thing you’ve ever said? Ask the boy help. Said the horse. And at a certain point you go the courage that it takes for a female founder, the courage that it takes for a woman when you’re on this path, you’re on this grind. You’ve set expectations. The courage that it takes to say, I need help or I need to pause is tremendous, and there is no way to continue to show up and role model for these young women, all the things that you aspire for them to have that you wanted to have when you were a young girl, if you are not doing it with complete authenticity because you are so close to being burned out.

 

Reshma Saujani  29:49

Yeah, and it’s funny, I don’t know how to learn this lesson. I’m gonna be honest, like a couple weeks ago, you know, I had a breast exam and they thought they saw something. And then I had to get a biopsy, and I had never gotten a biopsy before, so I didn’t know what to expect, but they’re like, You know what? It’s just a pinch, you’ll be fine. And I had a panel that night, and I know now from dncs and C sections and, like, IDs, and it’s not a pitch, they’re like, I keep my schedule right? I keep it all. I tell my husband’s like, let me come with you. I’m like, no, I’m good. I got it. I’m fine, no, and it hurt like hell, right? My whole right? And I go and I do the panel, and I’m sitting there, and I’m like, what is wrong with you? Like, you know better than this, what is wrong with you, and I think it’s so hard to unlearn what this is really about, because I think one, it’s personal, but two, like the sense of like, I’m strong, I’m resilient, I can take it. I got it right, because all these things have served me. It’s why I’ve been able to do the things that I do. And then I think we live in this society that encourages women to do that, yeah, and this sense that, like, we don’t break, and we’re not allowed to break, not allowed to break.

 

Megan  31:09

You have to keep smiling, all of these constructs that think we’ve all been prey to and have projected and at a certain point, I mean, I often find too even in the advocacy work or showing up and wanting to that you go, am I saying the thing, but I’m not doing the thing? Yeah, and when can we start taking our own advice? What do you think that pivot point will be? When will the inflection point happen where women, especially the ones who are leading in these movements and leading in this messaging, to actually integrate that in that advice, and not just know it or intellectualize it, to integrate it for you to say, Yeah, you know, honey, I am going to clear the rest of my schedule after this appointment, and please, can you drive me and come with me?

 

Reshma Saujani  31:54

Yeah, well, it’s interesting. I’m seeing, you know, a lot of the women I just went to Cecile Richards funeral. So you’re seeing a lot of these women who’ve given themselves to the movement, who’ve had real health scares and challenges and and you know that they’re not not connected, right? Meaning, like we expect the people that are trying to fight for women and girls to always be on, to always be working. We also know at the same time that there’s no finish line.

 

Megan  32:21

Yeah, and that the body holds the score.

 

Reshma Saujani  32:23

Exactly, and especially for women of color, right? Who are always like, oh, but you should go fight, and you should go fight, and you should go save us that we can’t continue to operate that way. And so I think we have to, just because one of the things I’m seeing, I don’t have as many young girls or young women reaching out to be on LinkedIn, being like, Mr. Johnny, I also want to start a nonprofit. How do I do that? I think that they’re looking at us and seeing how exhausted we are, how tired we are, how much you have to sacrifice, and saying, yeah, no, thank you. Oh, wow. And if that happens, we’re going to lose a generation of social entrepreneurs that we desperately need to continue these fights. Yeah. And so we got to show them a different way. We got to do it a different way.

 

Speaker 1  34:59

So you mentioned before the break that a lot of these young female entrepreneurs that have that desire to build something, are looking at their mentors and saying, No, thank you, yeah, based on the burnout they’re seeing. And so I guess the question is, how do we turn that around? Yeah, how do we show that perfect doesn’t exist? And maybe that’s part of the messaging. But also, what does it look like now when you can find balance.

 

Reshma Saujani  36:37

And it’s not one or the other, you know, one of the things I’m seeing in the motherhood movement is people think you have to pick being a girl boss or a triad wife, that it’s black or white, right, that either you’re in the workforce and you can’t focus on your kids and you don’t get to see them, or you’re just at home. And I think the point is, is that we’re just presenting these like polar opposite choices, when really what we all want is something in the middle. I want to be able to pick my kids up, you know, at school every so often, give them a little hug and a kiss, have some flexibility, not be on the plane all the time, but I want to be able to crush it in the things that I care about.

 

Megan  37:12

Yes, now you have the title of mom just like me. Favorite title. Love it. I love being a mom. Oh my gosh. I love being a mom so much. It’s my favorite thing. It is the thing where you’re like, oh my gosh, I just need a break. I just need a minute. I just need a minute. And the second you step in the other room, you go, Oh, but where are they? Let me just pop. Let me just let me scroll through pictures of the endlessly on my phone. And then you just, my husband’s like, my love, can you just give yourself a minute? Why don’t you go work out? Why don’t you go take a bath? I’m like, I know, but I just want to cuddle for it’s the it’s the parenting paradigm where it is so full on, and I wouldn’t trade it for anything. But I think what’s really key about what you said and the pandemic may have been the thing that shifted this. When working from home and parenting from home, where they are completely converged, can feel incredibly overwhelming. How do you feel about that?

 

Reshma Saujani  38:05

I feel like the way that we’ve built workplaces, we’ve set women up to fail, period, you know? And the thing I always think about Megan is like, look, we have the most educated workforce of women, like 75% of the high school valedictorians are girls, right? Most of those getting their PhDs are girls. And we have to ask ourselves, why do we have the most educated population of women that have the lowest amount of participation in the labor force? And the reason is, is because, when we become moms, because of the cost of childcare, because of the lack of availability of childcare, because we just don’t make it possible for you to do both. Oftentimes, women are having to downshift or make choices. And the way we’ve tried to solve this problem is say, Well, the problem is women right, like you got to get more confidence. You got to power pose, you know your way before a meeting. You got to get a mentor.

 

Megan  38:55

Right.

 

Reshma Saujani  38:55

It’s all about you’re wrong. You’re broken, when really it’s just structural. And what was so amazing about this in the pandemic is I think it gave us a window of what’s possible. So like, if you do have flexibility, if you can take care of your kid when they’re sick and still get it on a meeting, right? If you still can not be set to fail because the school day is 830 and the work days nine to five, right? If we can actually give people grace and flexibility and give women ownership over their time, you will actually see a shift.

 

Megan  39:32

And also, with that comes the woman who is juggling it all and doing it all from home, being confident enough to tell the truth about what’s going on, because you can’t give grace to someone in the same way if you just have no sense of it. You don’t know if they my kids, for example, right now, one has RSV, the other has influenza A I hear a little pitter patter of the upstairs. You know, coughs are up all night and rubbing the back. Back in this and you go, and we still find a way to show up for both, but being able to be comfortable enough, and maybe that’s to your earlier point, how we teach this generation who might not feel as inspired to do some of the change making that we know has been so fundamental. It’s like, no, just be honest in the journey of it and say, Yeah, today I’m going to show up for you, but I’m showing up for you in my sweatshirt today, because I’ve been up all night with my babies, but I’m still going to be able to show up for both because both matter and both are what keep my cup full.

 

Reshma Saujani  40:28

Yes, we breastfed in closets. We right, we didn’t put our kids picture on there. We like, we’re like, oh my god, I’m sorry. I you know, we go like, I always say, like, you know, Girls Who Code, mostly women work for me, they get pregnant all the time, and we kill it, right? Like, I have built, like, two of the most, fastest growing nonprofits, and we live our values. And so this sense of that, well, you know, it’s you’re not gonna be productive, or you’re like, you know, watching Netflix while you’re work, like, it’s just not true. And so we just have to, but there’s so much resistant to change. Yes, and I do think that part of that is about having women ask for what they need, and our male allies. You know, one of the things that you’ve seen really shift in this remote work conversation is a lot of men are saying, okay, great. You want me to come back to work? Dads are saying you need to support me in my childcare. You need to change your paid leave policies, right? You need to allow me to be a parent and just thrive. But I think that is just absolutely right. Is like, how do we ask and demand what we need? I mean, you see it even in promotions, men will not if they leave the workforce, they will go back, and they will not compromise on their salary, whereas we’ll make all right, you want to pay me 20% less? Okay, fine. Thank you, right?

 

Megan  41:52

It’s true and that’s the shift that has to come. And I think look, as you continue to grow out, I don’t know what your next chapter looks like for you, especially when you say eight years and then maybe time for a change. Now you’ve already forecasted that in some way, because we know your proof points of how that works, what do you feel like your next chapter will be?

 

Reshma Saujani  42:14

Well, listen, I love exposing cons, and I think one of the things with all of these things that are in common is one, what do you mean girls can’t code? Yes, they can, and they can build incredible things. And what do you mean we can’t redesign workplaces for women? Yes, we can. We need to pass childcare and paid leave. And you know the work I’m doing my podcast right now, my so called midlife was like I was in that inflection point between Girls Who Code and in mom’s first there was no third baby, right? Like I was seeing wrinkles on my face that I hadn’t seen before. My body was changing because of perimenopause, and I was just like feeling like my best years are behind me. And I started working with my monk, razanath, and that’s why I started reading the book with Geetha, because I realized, like all the things that were holding me back, and the things that I were holding on to, and it just opened up such this incredible moment of one rethinking midlife for women, because I think the view about midlife is so different for women and men, and we need to change it, because we are living longer than we ever expected, ever expected? And I don’t know if you knew this, but like, you know, the largest gender pay gap is for women above 50. Like, I have so many friends now who are approaching 50 and who are like, I can’t get that promotion. I can’t become a partner at that venture fund. Like, I can’t start that business. Like, the way we perceive women their potential and their opportunity. You know, I call it the midlife penalty for women, really changes. And so to me, I think I will continue to do this work right? I will continue to do this work about women. I have made the realization though Megan, we may not win in our lifetimes.

 

Megan  43:59

Meaning, what?

 

Reshma Saujani  44:01

Meaning that I might die with women having less rights than they had when I was born, that we may not see a female president in my lifetime, that your daughters my nieces, may still be fighting the same fights that we’re fighting. And for me, that was a really hard reality to face in midlife, because we went through all the things we sacrificed to our health, our family, and we have to say, God, is it worth it? Like, what is the point? What is the point if we keep dismantling progress? And I think I’ve realized that probably me, you were put on this earth just like those suffragettes, to just keep hope alive, keep fighting, keep pushing. Because, yeah, that’s the point. You like, you lose, and then you win.

 

Megan  44:46

Yes.

 

Reshma Saujani  44:47

Right,  you lose, and then you win.

 

Megan  44:49

And sometimes just when you think you’re about to win, oh, man, did that hurt, because that feels like quite a loss, but you just keep going. And I think my understanding, especially. In having this time to be able to hear your story and talk with you and see the commonality in some of these other equally successful women that I’m speaking with and talk about what’s behind every successful woman. What’s behind every successful what’s behind every successful woman is self awareness. There comes a point where each of these women on their journeys has such a tremendous sense of self awareness and the desire to dig deeper that is unflappable.

 

Reshma Saujani  45:32

I think that’s right. And I think you realize, like, I don’t care what other people think about me, like I’m not I’m not doing this. I just to me. I want to die knowing that I lived my fullest potential and that I gave back to like a key. Go back to my parents story like about the people that sheltered them, that took them in, that fed them like I will continue to fight for our children to make sure that this that this world is good, that they learn and see goodness. And I think that we have a role to play in that. But I think the lesson is, is that you got to do it with joy, yes, and it can’t come at an expense, right, to your health or to your happiness or to your children.

 

Megan  46:13

Yes, and everything has some expense, right? But right, when you’re looking, what’s the ROI What is your return on the investment of everything you’re pouring into that, and at the end of the day, what you’re doing is creating legacy that will whether you see those changes in your lifetime or our kids lifetime, it still steps in the right direction of what legacy is all about, and that, I think, is one of the most fascinating, probably most powerful, things about the journey of creation. As a female founder, you’re creating something with lasting impact.

 

Reshma Saujani  46:45

Well, thank you so much for all your seriously Megan, I there’s so much gratitude and love towards you. I just hope, I hope you know that.

 

Megan  46:52

Thank you and thank you for joining me today. I appreciate it. How far we’ve come and yet, here we are.

 

Reshma Saujani  46:57

Here we are.

 

Megan  46:57

Wherever we go, here we are.

 

Reshma Saujani  46:59

I really appreciate it.

 

Megan  47:00

All right, take good care.

 

Reshma Saujani  47:01

Bye, bye.

 

Megan  47:08

Next week, we are talking to an iconic founder in the beauty industry. She is a hair colorist. She’s a stylist too, but my goodness, can this girl do some color and she has turned her passion into products that people crave.

 

Next Guest  47:25

When I said the words, the world does not need another shampoo and conditioner, literally, I could have heard an amen from the crowd like people were over it.

 

Megan  47:34

Can you guess who it is? I’ll see you then.

 

CREDITS 47:45

Confessions Of A Female Founder is a production of Lemonada Media.  Created and hosted by Megan. Our producers are Kathryn Barnes and Hoja Lopez.  Kristen Lepore is our senior supervising producer. Executive producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Megan. Mix and sound design are by Johnny Vince Evans. Rachel Neel is our VP of new content and production, and Steve Nelson is our SVP of weekly content and production. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. There’s more Confessions Of A Female Founder with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content when you subscribe in Apple podcasts, you can also listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. We’ll see you next week.