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Phoebe Robinson is known for making us laugh. Whether it’s through her standup, her books, her acting, or her podcasts she is writing award-winning jokes about some of life’s universally awkward moments. But now that she’s officially joined the 40’s club, Phoebe is…running. She’s running marathons. She and Reshma talk about how running becomes a metaphor for life. It teaches you that you can’t give up when it gets hard, how to deal with rejection, and that tuning into what you need always serves you in the long run.

Follow Phoebe on Instagram @dopequeenpheebs.

You can follow our host Reshma Saujani @reshmasaujani on Instagram.

Let us know how you’re doing in midlife! You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Phoebe Robinson, Reshma Saujani

Reshma Saujani  01:10

Welcome to My So Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I’m Reshma Saujani, so have you ever done something that’s so different or so impulsive that you know you’re gonna fail but you still go for it? I know I have. Sometimes something overcomes you, and you just know you gotta do it, regardless of the odds. The crazy thing is, the thing that you do that you didn’t know if you wanted to do it becomes the best experience of your life. So in 2007 I signed up for my very first marathon. I was not a runner. I had never run more than like, maybe five miles before, but I was going through a really hard breakup, and I knew that I needed a change and that I had to learn again how to live life. For me, that marathon that I ran was one of the most brutal and equally amazing experiences I’ve ever had in my life. And so I wanted to talk to someone who knew what that was like, how running can, just like, push you forward in such incredibly gratifying ways, the amazing Phoebe Robinson joins us today to talk about her journey with marathon running and how she’s come to accept failure as a part of life. Ah, my mantra. She is a comedian, a writer, an actress, and honestly, just an all around badass. And get this, she too found herself picking up her running shoes after a breakup. She shares how running has just been crucial to learning how to push past a discomfort and to not fear failure as a road to running teaches all of us, sometimes even the best plans don’t always work out, so just don’t give up. So as someone who’s faced a lot of failure in their life and career, I knew exactly what she was talking about. Sometimes you just gotta keep running. Literally, my experience running that first marathon was just brutal, and you wanna know what it was also beautiful. I never lived in a moment like that where I was so present. Was I in pain? Yeah, do I regret it? Never, so right after I finished the marathon, I was so moved by the experience that I wrote this email to all my friends and loved ones who supported me and cheered me on, and I just recently found it as I was preparing to interview Phoebe, and I just want to read a section of it to you, because it just it still is so relevant for the way I live my life. Here it goes in the weirdest way, the race was a true reflection of life. The first 16 miles was a breeze listening to the crowds. JT, who I love, Bollywood, just making up dances in my head as I ran, enjoying the run around neighborhoods in New York City and seeing parts of this city I had never seen before. And when I turned on to First Avenue, I felt like I was really the fastest runner in the whole entire world, faster than any Olympian ever lived. And in my head, I was like, wow, this is so easy. What is all the fuss about? And then mile 17, I hit a wall out of nowhere, and everything went into slow motion. Those last nine miles were so, so painful. I felt like they would never end. Everything that could go wrong went wrong at that point. My feet were bleeding the half a contact that was. Stuck in my eye from the night before felt like a piece of glass. My stomach started cramping, and my lower back felt like I had a knife stuck in it. The only thing I wanted to do was walk or quit. But at mile 17, I realized that it was the first time in a while that I was living in the moment. And as most of you know, it is so hard for me to live in the moment. It is what I strive to do, but never can. But starting at mile 17, I was more present in that moment in my life than I have ever been, and I knew I couldn’t walk or quit, because if I did every time for the rest of my life that I felt like walking or quitting, I would I knew if I got through the pain, then for the rest of my life’s journey, I could get through anything. So now I know whenever I feel defeated or disenchanted, I can remember how I felt at mile 17. You know what’s so funny mid lifers, I sent that email to my friends in 2007 and every time since then, when I’m going through a really hard time or a failure, like the races I’ve run or the miscarriages I’ve had, one of my Friends sends me back that email. It’s like this reminder, like I asked about always remembering mile 17 and that I didn’t walk or quit. So you know, while it doesn’t have to be a New York City Marathon, I hope all of you have a mile 17 experience. It will change your whole life in that moment and for the rest of your life. So now my conversation with the amazing Phoebe Robinson.

 

Reshma Saujani  06:54

Hey, Phoebe.

 

Phoebe Robinson  06:55

Hi.

 

Reshma Saujani  06:56

So on this show, we like to talk about midlife mindset and how it varies. Like, for everyone, like, some people are like, fuck yeah, this is the best time of my life, getting older. Rocks, and some people are like, not so much. So where do you land?

 

Phoebe Robinson  07:12

I so I am new to the 40s club. I’ve been here for six months.

 

Reshma Saujani  07:19

Ooh, you’re real new.

 

Phoebe Robinson  07:20

I’m real no, I’m fresh baby, yeah, but I’m really enjoying it on the whole like, yes, is the world a disaster 100% but I think I was thinking this last night as I was I finished eating dinner and was doing dishes at like, 7:30pm like I was truly adulting. I was like, I feel like a fully formed adult now where everything is like, clicking into place, like the career stuff, making time for friends. Like, I was like, the the takeout Queen for the longest time, and I’m like, girl just like order and like, that could be a way you can give back to yourself and be creative. So now my cooking all the time, and so I’m just fueling for me. I feel like this is the most I’ve ever liked myself. I’m really getting to know myself, in a way. And so I feel as though I’ve been, I don’t know, blessed, lucky, whatever you have it, that I just have this mindset that, like, 40 to me, feels like, Okay, this is like, half time. And so how do I want the next knock on wood, 40 years and beyond, to look like? And so I don’t know. I just am like, I feel like I’m coming out the locker room and it’s third quarter. I’m like, all right, let’s go on a run. You know? Like, it just feels good. That’s

 

Reshma Saujani  08:38

amazing, can I ask you something? Because, like, you’ve proven yourself, you’ve done all the things that, like you’ve checked the boxes, and now you’re kind of living life for you. So when you feel like, do you think though you feel this way because of age or because of what you’ve already accomplished?

 

Phoebe Robinson  08:56

It’s probably a mix of both, right? You know, like, you get to a certain age and you’re just sort of like, I can keep, you know, beating myself up, or I can keep being neurotic about XYZ, or I can have, you know, my type A, like, hustle mentality. But I just feel like in every person’s life, you have these different versions of yourself. I think they say, like, every seven years, you kind of essentially become a new person, interesting. I mean, it’s my life coach told me. And so I believe it.

 

Reshma Saujani  09:31

Listen, I believe everything that my life coach raga says to me too. So I hear you, Whitney Howard, love you.

 

Phoebe Robinson  09:38

But so I think that I I think I feel that way because the great things that I’ve picked up have allowed me to sort of shed some of the bad habits I developed in order to get to the place that I’m at, and I no longer need those things. So now it’s just a different like, I just have it more. Clarity about certain things that I didn’t have before.

 

Reshma Saujani  10:02

God, I love what you just can you give you an example of something like that that you’ve shed, that you needed to have? Because I think what you said was so powerful. There were things that you or habits that you got to get to where you’re at, and now that you got them, you don’t need that habit anymore. Like, what’s an example of that?

 

Phoebe Robinson  10:17

Yeah, I mean, this was, like, one of the things I worked on when I started therapy in 2020 Dr Johnson, love ya and she we were just talking one day because I wanted to go, because my my boyfriend at the time, was just like, you know, you really, like, I was always a workaholic, but he was like, you really take the wins and the losses, like, they just become so big in your life. And I was like, there is some clarity that, because once COVID happened and like, I couldn’t go shoot my special, I couldn’t go work on this TV show, like, all these things, like, everything came to a halt. I was a little bit like, what do I do? Like, trying to find busy work. And so, you know, I was just talking to my therapist in one of the sessions, and she was just like, you have poor girl brain, because I came out of massive debt, like, I had, like, I don’t know, $50,000 of student loans and, like, $60,000 of, like, credit card debt, and so I, like, finally was able to pay off the six figure debt. And she’s like, you’re still living your life and hustling and having to feel like you need to take on five jobs at once, and like you can’t say no to anything, because, like, what if the well runs dry and there’s no more money? So I just was so like, I couldn’t trust the fact that the work got me to the place that I wanted it to get me at, and I was still operating like, well, I don’t know. Though she could have dropped tomorrow. She’s like, it’s not, it’s not. So she’s like, just let go. You don’t need you need to hustle to get that debt and, like, to get to this, this stage of your career, but you don’t need to do that anymore. So like, figure out what the are the things that you do need to do for you to maintain the life that you want to have.

 

Reshma Saujani  11:59

That’s so powerful. So like, you’re letting go of poor girl brain that serves you in your 30s. Like, for me, I always the thing I struggle with is rejection. So like, you know, I lost my race when I was, you know, 30 in 2010 and I was, like, an athlete, you know, the athlete that doesn’t get picked for, like, the draft, and they’re like, Oh, I’m going to show you. I’m great. I’m going to show you. And that’s how I lived all of building Girls Who Code all of my 30s. I went to every speech, talked at everything, got on every bit. Hustle hard, because I was trying to prove myself to myself, right? And it’s funny, I think, you know, when I turned in my mid 40s and I started building mom’s first I was like, Oh, I got nothing to prove. And that chip started coming off my shoulder. Now she’s not totally gone, yeah, you know, she’s not totally gone.

 

Phoebe Robinson  12:57

And she won’t be, and that’s okay. It’s good to have some of that, because look at what you’ve done and look at the impact you have because of that part of you, sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to say that about you.

 

Reshma Saujani  13:08

No,  I appreciate you. Want to interrupt at all. I appreciate that. I also think sometimes it’s good to have a reminder of what served you to get here like it’s one of the things that I sometimes fear about, like, intensive therapy, because I’m like, I got all these things, I mean, that make this function, and I’m not sure I want to break them down, even though I know I need to break them down, right? Yeah, um, can I ask you a question, though, as you’re turning 40, do you have a list of, like, goals and insights and things you’re like, I want to accomplish in the next 10 years?

 

Phoebe Robinson  13:38

Yeah, I definitely have, like, my goals. And, you know, I am a firm believer in love, and so like I want to, I want to find my soul mate. That’s like my goal. I want to have, you know, the various markers of career success, whether it’s like winning an Emmy for writing or what have you, those kinds of things. But then there’s other things where I feel like I’ve really done a great job of reprioritizing my family and my friends in my life, because I was just in the past. I was just missing everything. I was missing baby showers and weddings and, you know, mom, dad, I gotta dip out of vacation early to go do a thing, or I’m not gonna come home at this time. And so I really was just sort of like, unless it’s like, you know, Barack Obama is like, calling me up, there is no reason to sacrifice the specialness of family and friends for what may be a career gain. You know what I mean? And I still love my career. It’s not that I don’t I just feel like I really want to have a whole and, like complete life, which I think would be amazing, and then fitness, like I got into marathon running. And so we’re gonna talk about.

 

Reshma Saujani  14:56

We’re gonna talk about, yes. So you know, so much of the content. I feel like I get in day to day, is, like, about health, right? And that, like, as we get older, we got to focus on our health, right? And that means, like, getting enough fiber. I want my Michelle Obama arms. Like, what was your fitness routine before you started running?

 

Phoebe Robinson  15:14

It was, it was pretty inconsistent. I much, must say, I think part of it, it was just because I was constantly like, hey, you live in New York. You’re walking around everywhere. So I know that sounds obnoxious, but truly, if you’re just walking everywhere.

 

Reshma Saujani  15:28

It’s true. My aura tells me that, like, you’re.

 

Phoebe Robinson  15:30

Yeah, especially like, when I have the, like, my was working, you know, like an executive assistant at various places, like, I would, like, leave work and I’ma walk two miles and then go to, like, my Stand Up Show, and I’ll be like, Well, I just walked two miles. So, like, you don’t even like that counts as whatever. And so I think, because everything you know, I don’t want to make a blanket statement about youth, but I think when you are in your 20s and your 30s, you it’s just not a top of mind. Like, I don’t remember any of us ever talking about hip mobility when we were 31 you know what I mean. And so then after I broke up with my ex in 2022 I just sort of felt like, like I would, like, when we were dating, there were moments where I was like, oh, we’ll be cute together, because we can work out together. And like, he would do it with me for a couple weeks, and then, like, would abandon it. And by the end of the relationship, I felt like I was holding myself back in order to stay in the relationship. You know what I mean? Like, whether it’s like, dim in my life because my career was going well, or just like, what have you. And so coming out of that, in 2022 I was just sort of like, well, okay, let’s get to know this new Phoebe. What do you want to do? And I was just like, you know, I like seeing the people around Prospect Park working out, like, I kind of want to do that. And so February of 2023, I was like, maybe I’ll just, like, try and run. Maybe I’ll do that. I tried the past, and it was horrible, and I would get shin splints. And I was like, oh, running is bad. And so I literally threw peloton and, like, Nike Run Club I was doing like these, like, 20 minute walk runs. Like, that’s how I started because, like, running more than, like a minute, I was like, oh, my God. And it just slowly built from Mayor. Like, I really I started at ground level.

 

Phoebe Robinson  17:26

At what, how old were you?

 

Phoebe Robinson  17:27

I was 38.

 

Reshma Saujani  17:30

Wow, so I started running. I ran my first marathon, because a boy too, but different, like I had just gotten out of a brutal breakup, right? Like I was living with a guy the whole thing, yeah, I was having a hard time getting out of bed, and so I signed up for the marathon. Because I love like, when you do that, they give you.

 

Phoebe Robinson  17:49

Wait, so you just signed up for a marathon.

 

Reshma Saujani  17:52

Well, I unlike so I did do some cross country when I was little, like I ran, but I didn’t run, run. But what I needed was, remember, when you sign for the marathon, they give you that little sheet that says, This is what. On Monday, you run this. On Wednesday, you rent. Like, great. So I needed that in my life at that point, because I needed some structure, and I would like run by his house. You mean, like at every run, I know that sounds like now, I sound like a stalker. I hope you like anyway, but it sounded like a good idea here, I mean, then as like a way to be like, ah, I’m over it. Like, see I see you, but I don’t see you, and I’m good, but that’s why I started running. And it is amazing my husband now, who’s really might run true love if, case, Nahal, you were wondering and talking about my other breakup, you started running two years ago. You’ve really fallen in love because you’ve gone across the world a marathon.

 

Phoebe Robinson  18:45

Yeah, I’ve done Boston and New York, and I’m gearing up to do Tokyo, which is wild. I’ve never been in Japan. I’m so excited. I am sort of like, it just a it’s a great way to see a city like even living in I’ve been living in New York since I was 17, going on 18, and when I ran the New York City marathon last year, I was sort of like, oh my God. I’ve never seen New York like this.

 

Reshma Saujani  19:13

v that’s how I felt when I ran the marathon, it’s wild.

 

Phoebe Robinson  19:16

It’s so cool. And it’s just like, you know when you get off the Queensborough bridge and then there’s like, the wall of sound, and everyone cheering. You’re just like, Oh, my God, the adrenaline. But yeah, it’s really been marathon running. I think what I will admit about myself is that I do think I like there to be just a little bit of torture in things, like a little.

 

Reshma Saujani  19:39

A little bit of pain, yeah, little bloody feet, yeah.

 

Phoebe Robinson  19:41

Yeah, because, as you know, training for a marathon, like, you can have those weeks where you’re like, yeah, some vibe is amazing. And you have weeks where you’re like, This is ass, and I do not want to do this, and this is so annoying and but I think it’s always just a great, like, mental challenge. And it’s like, if someone had told me. At 40, I would be on my third marathon. I’d be like, What are you talking about? Yeah, I’m surprising myself. It’s cool.

 

Reshma Saujani  20:09

What do you think that running is giving you that you weren’t getting before?

 

Phoebe Robinson  20:14

As someone who is sensitive, rejection is something I’ve always sort of struggled with, because I would internalize it as like, oh, you didn’t do this, or you weren’t that, or you messed this up. And so I would always like, whether it was like, work or dating, I would just always like, really take it as an indictment of some thing that I lack as a person. And I feel like when you’re running, especially once you get to marathon training stage, like you’re like, once you’re running a marathon, you are going to hit a wall. You’re going to hit this moment where you’re like, This feels like impossible, and you have to get through it anyway. So before the race, I got shin splints. And so then I was trying to recover enough so I, like, didn’t run for like, two and a half weeks. And so, like, my shin was like, I was like, it’s like 90% I was like, I I could do this, this race. And then I got to, like, mile 17, and my right leg, it was, like, my ankle, and then I kept running, and then, like, my calf and then my right hamstring all started to fail me, and so I was starting to panic, and I was texting my friend, she’s a great Sean. She’s a great, great marathon runner. And I was like, I’m freaking out. Like I had this whole plan. I was going to hit my goal time. I was doing it. It was going my way. And she goes, I have run New York in pain. I know what you’re going through. Forget everything. You just have to finish. And that was just such a great I think that’s the thing about running. It’s like, you just have to finish. That’s it. And I think that’s a great metaphor for life. It’s like, it just means, like, don’t give up on yourself, because, you know why didn’t go your way, and you could have the best plans, and most of the time, the plans will not go your way. Just don’t give up.

 

Reshma Saujani  22:10

I love it. I mean, I have a mile 17 too. And I wrote, like, an email to myself, and I go back and I read it, because it is, like, anytime I feel like I am like, I can’t do it. I’m too tired, I’m too broken, I’m too exhausted. I remember that mile 17, and you keep running, and that’s what you do, and then, like, that’s what you do in life. I mean, so has that then helped deal with rejection? Like, has, have you had, like, a mindset change?

 

Phoebe Robinson  22:42

I think running and I started meditating this year, because I just was like, you know, my part, one of the things I was talking about with my therapist, like, over the years, is I’ve just been like, oh, I’m such a, like, emotional person. That doesn’t mean that I’m like, erratic. That’s not how I mean it. It just means I was like, I just feel everything deeply and intensely, and I go, this is really I was like, I kind of just wish I wasn’t like this. And she goes, that’s not what it’s about. She’s like, you are an emotional person. And she’s like, that’s fine. So it’s just about like, don’t beat yourself up by being like, oh, I should be stoic. I should be this. She’s like, embrace like, who you are and find ways in which it could be more manageable. Because, you know, I’m, like, a classic overthinker and anxiety, yes. And so I was just like, let me just give this meditation thing a shot. Let’s just see what’s up. And so I’ve been doing it, and I’ve noticed that, like, it’s just improved the way that I fall asleep at night. I just fall asleep better. But all that is to say that I just really, I think the meditation, the running have sort of helped me be like you are always going to be a person who feels everything deeply that is just who you’re going to be. So embrace that and learn how to manage it and have it work for you instead of like, you know, if something doesn’t happen that I want to happen career wise, Don’t let it break me for like a week.

 

Reshma Saujani  28:46

I do want to real quickly go through your bio, because you’ve accomplished a lot, and it started with two Dope Queens, right? Your your comedy podcast with with Jessica Williams. You weren’t even like into stand up comedy. It just kind of all happened. Tell me about that a little bit.

 

Phoebe Robinson  29:01

Yeah, I, you know, my thing, I thought I was gonna write, like, serious movies. Like, I thought that that was like, what I was gonna do. Like, I remember I watched, like, American Beauty, and I was like, This is so profound. Like, I thought I was gonna, I love that do stuff, and I know little innocent themes. And, you know, I came here and I studied writing at um Pratt Institute, which is great, and then they had, like an informal improv team. So I would like do that, because I was always, sort of the funny I wasn’t a class clown. I had, like, self respect, but I was always like, kind of, you know, like the funny one in high school. And so after that, I went and worked at a couple of film companies. I was like, I think I really just want to be a writer producer, so I’ll, like, work my way up the, you know, executive assistant chain, and you become, like, a manager, you do, like, all these other things. And I just was like, you know, I kind of quickly realized I didn’t like it. And I was like, I. Was like, maybe 23 and I just there was always something in my stomach that was like, I don’t really love just like being in an office and this sort of corporate life of trying to work up the corporate ladder. And a friend of mine, Lindsey, newest, she wanted to take a stand up class at Caroline’s, and this was 2008 and I was just like, That’s dumb. Like, what is it like? I knew what stand up was because, you know Chris Rock, right? You know George Carlin, Pryor, Wanda Sykes, you know all the Janine Carlo, all the greats. But I just was sort of like, why would anyone do that? Like, what is the point? And so she was like, but you hate your job. So like, this will be a fun distracted traffic, right? Yeah, yeah. I was like, Okay, you have to drag me, but yes, I do hate my job. And then I took the class, so the first week we went, and we saw Darryl Hammond, who was on SNL, and he just did, like, an hour, and it was so funny. And I was like, oh, this is cool.

 

Reshma Saujani  30:58

And are you thinking, like, when you’re watching him, like, this is cool. I can do this.

 

Phoebe Robinson  31:03

Not necessarily, oh, I could do this. I was just like, oh, like, I get like, I get the magic of it. You know what I mean? Yeah, because I think it’s when you watch specials at home, I could super fun. But like, when you’re in the room where this person is like, changing the chemistry of the room and making people laugh. You’re like, I get it. And so our homework assignment was to write three minutes of material, and we were all freaking out, like, three minutes? How are we going to talk and be funny for three minutes? And so we did it, and then we came into, like, this, our class, and the second I touched the microphone, I was like, Okay, I think I should be doing this. Like, I hadn’t even said a word yet.

 

Reshma Saujani  31:42

So how did you know what it was that feeling?

 

Phoebe Robinson  31:44

I just had a feeling my body. It just felt correct, like when I touched it, it was just like, yes, you know what I mean, this is home, yeah, yeah. And so I was like, all right. And then, so this was july 2008 October. 2008 the indie film company, picture house I was working at. It got shut down, and I was like, this is a sign from the universe, right? And so then I just did open mics and got, like, whatever, day jobs. And I tell you, I was doing shows at biker bars and Staten Island. I was doing shows for free. I was taking the $1 bus, you know, at like, 11pm to go to Boston yeah.

 

Reshma Saujani  32:22

Like, this is it.

 

Phoebe Robinson  32:22

Yeah, so I just, I got all in and I studied, and I watched all the HBO specials and everything, and it just, it really changed my life.

 

Reshma Saujani  32:30

And it happens, yeah, Joke Queens is, like a freaking hit and a half. Like a hit and a half, you blow up. So talking about that like you love books, and you got this imprint now, why books? Tiny reparations? Tell me.

 

Phoebe Robinson  32:45

Gosh, yeah, tiny reparations books. I mean, I, when I was a kid, I used to write short stories all the time, like, I just, I’ve always loved books. And, you know, my parents were always very much big promoters of reading. And, you know, they wanted to read during the summer, like it’s like, reading should just be a natural part of your life and not homework. And I think there’s this is a tangent, but I do feel like society, like I understand the powers that be don’t want us to be readers because Critical Thinking allows us to not be manipulated. But I’m like, there is so much joy and pleasure in reading, and it’s I love the smell of books. I love holding them. I love audiobooks, all of that. So I think that that’s very important. And so you know, when I was writing my when I was trying, actually, when I was trying to shop around my first book, you can’t touch my hair, and 2015 I’ve talked about this before, but my lit agent, Robert Gensler, who is he’s been with me for 10 years, and he’s amazing, a fantastic champion of women and people of color, people from the career community to write their books, and I was getting rejected, left, right and center with my proposals, and literally, people were telling him nobody wants to read a book written by a black woman. This isn’t relatable. It won’t sell black funny women, don’t it’s niche. There’s like, yes, and you’re just like, in there, and I’m like, I want the numbers show that college educated black women actually be the most that aside, it just felt like and the plume ended up being my publisher, and they were the only one who believed in me and saw anything in me. And I just was always, it was always in the back of my mind that I was like, you know, no one said the proposal wasn’t real well written, or that it wasn’t funny, or that the talent isn’t there. They were just saying, Oh, you’re black, so this won’t work. And you’re like, it’s 2015, babe. Like, you can’t, like, it’s so ignorant. But I just was always like, you know that shouldn’t be and so I really wanted my imprint, which we’re coming up on our fifth year anniversary this year, which is so exciting, I really wanted to be a platform. Where people can bring their their work and their talent and their book babies, and they will not be rejected for how they identify. Like, if I don’t, you know, go for a book, it’s usually because I feel like I’m not the right home for and that there’s someone better for it. But I just really was just like, books are just this magical, amazing, just creations. And I don’t want people to feel defeated or give up or their dreams or go like, well, I guess I, you know, I’m Asian, and I guess, you know, no one wants to hear from me because I’m Chinese,

 

Reshma Saujani  35:32

which my friends, who are writers feel all the time is true. Or if you’re South Asian, you can only sell a book about people in India. Yeah. I mean, yeah, because that’s all we think people want to read. No, it’s such a powerful point. It’s not just about the talent who doesn’t get their opportunities and their knowledge and their wisdom and their incredible writing a platform, but it’s also the ideas and the stories that we don’t get to hear.

 

Phoebe Robinson  35:54

And it’s just sort of like, especially when I started my imprint, the amount of like, manuscripts that were coming in that were just slavery stories. And I was like, guys that can’t be the only thing you want to publish. And so, like, now we’re getting a place where people are sitting as sort of, like, more good, like book clubby thriller things. I mean, all these are books like Colleen Hoover that’s black, yeah. And all these books are like, you know about people of color who are like, on the run, or like, come of age story, or we have biography about Marsha P Johnson coming out, which, you know, could be more timely, considering the administration, but just like all these things where it’s like, we live such rich, wonderful, interesting lives, and if we can, you know, relate to Sex in the City and Seinfeld and Sally Rooney and all these people, then you should be able to relate to our stories. Because what we’re taught like, we want to fall in love, we want to break the law, you know, like in an escapist way. We have families too, so we have all these stories and these rich tapestries that we want to share. So it’s like, why not do that?

 

Reshma Saujani  37:04

Let me ask you a question.

 

Phoebe Robinson  37:05

Yes.

 

Reshma Saujani  37:05

Why do you think they’re trying to dismantle progress of women and people of color right now?

 

Phoebe Robinson  37:10

Because, oh gosh. I mean, we could talk about for like, the next week, but I think a lot of it is because once they see that the progress is de centering men, and in particular, white men. And whiteness, I think a lot of white identity, and this isn’t a new concept, but I think a lot of white identity has built from denying others and presenting a lack within them. So you go like, oh, I’m great because people of color are dumb, or I’m more talented because people of color don’t have sort of the the ability to do what I do. And then when we do get into those spaces, and we do kick butt, whether it’s, you know, music, it is sports, you know, literature, you’re sort of confronted with the reality that there is nothing inherently exceptional about you. Oh, damn. And if there’s nothing inherently exceptional about you, then you have to work, damn. And you Yeah, you know, to me, I think that’s the crux of it. It’s like, if you’re not special, then it’s like, you gotta be like the rest of us, babe. You gotta roll up your sleeves. You gotta do the work. You gotta learn. You gotta, you know you gotta fail. You know you’re not gonna fail upwards. You’re gonna fail and, like, learn and then, like, pivot and do that. But these are all these sort of experiences that can be avoided, because it’s just like, well, I’m I’m just naturally the best, yeah, so I don’t have to deal with that.

 

Reshma Saujani  38:47

It’s true. Listen, in all my life and all my work Girls Who Code, mom’s first I’ve been on every powerful board. I have never seen the bar lowered. I have never seen the bar lowered for a woman or a person of color or a gay person, it has always just been a lie, right? We’ve never talked about unearned privilege for white men. And I think what you say is so, so profound and so true, right? Because it is wrapped up an identity that, like that people kind of have held on to, right? About what makes them special when it doesn’t and they’re not.

 

Phoebe Robinson  39:24

Yeah, and how do you like? Because you two are also so accomplished, but you’re so intelligent, and that freaks people out. A smart woman, people still get stressed. So how do you like? Like? How do you I just don’t want to, I’m just.

 

Reshma Saujani  39:41

Oh, I don’t give a fuck anymore. I pissed off.  I mean, I the reality is is, like, there are things that I probably haven’t gotten because I didn’t play the cards and do the thing right. There are opportunities I didn’t get, but then people love and respect what I do and who I am and like I do this thing, maybe that like as women of color, people of color, we gotta have a lot more swag. We gotta stop trying to shrink ourselves to make everybody else more comfortable. Like, I’m gonna put my fabulousness in your face right, and make you deal with it and I think that that is what I really want to teach women to do. It’s kind of why I started this podcast, right? It’s like, no, all this stuff that you think like your desire goes away. You mean that you don’t have the best ideas, right? That life is done. The older you get, that you don’t you’re not attractive anymore. It’s all a lie. Yeah, it’s all a lie. And so I just, I think we have to approach this moment that we’re in great take away de and I, I don’t care, I’ll still beat your ass anyway. Yeah, like, that’s the attitude and the that we have to come with at this moment. Like a lot of my elders right now will say, we’ve never seen anything like this before, and often they’re responsible to say, so now you got to be twice as good. And I’m like, no, no, no, we did that twice as good thing over there already. We’re not doing that again. We’re not falling for that again. We are already. Are twice as good. We got to, like, play a different tune, try a different move.

 

Phoebe Robinson  41:18

You’re so right that twice as good, because it’s like, it got us somewhere, but it didn’t last, you know, and we’re all tired, like, I think that was also part of the shift. Is like, I was just so tired, like, you know, before, like, every pitch I was like, I got the pitch memorized. I’m proud you practice, like, asking me 20 questions so I can have an answer for and it’s like, all you’re constantly over preparing so that, like, there’s no gotcha, and you can’t live your life in the like, I’m trying to stop the gotchas. Like that is just like, that’s too much.

 

Reshma Saujani  41:53

Too much, and that, yeah, and that’s the thing. It’s like, you don’t have time, and we need time to rest, to recover, to laugh, to heal. And they they don’t. I know I spent a lot of time with these folks, like they don’t spend that much time, because they just walk and think that they got it. And so it also like this, twice as good thing feeds into the narrative that we weren’t twice as good.

 

Reshma Saujani  45:51

So you strike me as someone who goes for everything, right? Like your comedy, your writing three New York Times bestsellers, seems like a fourth one’s coming on its way. Podcasting now running and where does that come from? Because I get the sense with your vibe is like it comes to you, you don’t chase it too much and you don’t get too bothered by it.

 

Phoebe Robinson  46:19

I think I would say I’m a bit of an overachiever, and I do want to figure out where that comes from, because my parents have always been, you know, they’ve been tough, but fair, you know, which I think is, you know, the summary of a lot of parents.

 

Reshma Saujani  46:35

Very nice. I’m gonna tell my father that today, my judgment, that is a really nice way of saying something. I might describe another way, okay.

 

Phoebe Robinson  46:45

No, but I think they really did instill in us, like you have to show up for yourself, work ethic, all that stuff, so a lot of so I will say the work ethic and all this stuff has, I guess will. I will say, comes naturally to me. I would say the unbotheredness is probably due to therapy, life coaching over the past four years, of just sort of, like, it doesn’t mean, you know, I used to be like, you have to just give 100 to 10% all the time, and you gotta show up all the time. You just gotta, like, give everything, or you don’t care and now I’m just like, you could give, you could give 80 and still care if it’s a good 80, it’s if it’s a great 80% that’s awesome, because giving 120% makes no goddamn sense for what I’m doing. If I was like, a doctor or, you know, Dr Fauci, you know, and dealing with COVID, that makes sense. I’m and this is not to diminish what I’m doing. It’s just to provide context, like I chose a career where a lot of it is predicated on providing joy and being fun and funny and enjoying yourself. And if I’m going into this being so intense and never enjoying what I’m doing, I am missing the point.

 

Reshma Saujani  48:12

So are there places where you allow yourself to be mediocre, and how is this serving you in dating life?

 

Phoebe Robinson  48:18

You know? I so I just lightly started, sort of like, teaching myself how to play the piano.  I’m not good at all. I’m inconsistent with practicing it. And I’m just sort of like, Yeah, it’s fine. Like, I’m not going into it being like, I gotta be Alicia Keys. I’m like, I just want this is a creative outlet. And so I’m, I think a, I think this is a very American sort of concept of, like, if you can’t be the biggest, the best and the greatest, then why do it? And you’re like, well, I’m doing it because I like it. And doesn’t that fucking count for anything?

 

Reshma Saujani  48:56

It does, it should. It’s why a lot, that’s why men do a lot of things. You know? I mean, my husband plays basketball. He’s not very good, but yeah, loves Yeah. I think that’s right. I think hobbies are really important. Okay, how do you motivate someone who’s trying to do something new when they’re like 38?

 

Phoebe Robinson  49:16

What I it’s the same attitude I have to when I start writing something, you’re on the first draft, you’re just like, Yeah, it’s fine. If this sucks, who cares? It’s fine if it’s not perfect, you’ll figure it out. You’ll get there. But you gotta make the mistakes you gotta like, whether you wanna play basketball or learn an instrument or, you know, people were like, I decide I want to, like, be a chef later in life, and I want to do that. You just have to accept that, like, not being great at something, is it? It’s going to be a big part of it for quite some time. And either you can tell your ego to back off and not take a. Into that, or you can let it get in the way of, like, the future joy that comes like, the fact that I’m going to Tokyo is amazing, if I let the times I’ve been in Prospect Park and, like, I’ve done speed work for like, 20 minutes, and I felt like I lost both my lungs. Stop me. Be like, Okay, I’m not gonna run anymore. I wouldn’t be going to Tokyo in three weeks.

 

Reshma Saujani  50:23

It’s gonna be extraordinary. Well, I’m so excited for you. We’re gonna be cheering you on.

 

Phoebe Robinson  50:28

Thank you. This was amazing, thank you.

 

Reshma Saujani  50:45

Phoebe Robinson is a comedian, writer and actress. Thank you Phoebe for an incredible conversation, and thank you midlifers so much for listening to my so called midlife if you haven’t yet now it’s a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’ll get bonus content like Phoebe talking about her experience interviewing the one and only Michelle Obama. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcast or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com. Thanks, and we’ll be back next week.  I’m your host. Reshma Saujani, our producer is Claire Jones. Our associate producer is Isaura Aceves.  This series is Sound Design by Ivan Kuraev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltuck.  Our senior supervising producer is Kristen Lepore, and our senior producer is Kryssy Pease. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel.  Special thanks to our development team, Hoja Lopez, Jamela Zarha Williams and Alex McOwen. Executive Producers include me, Reshma Saujani, Stephanie Whittle Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know how you’re doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife. Follow My So Called Midlife, wherever you get your podcast, or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership, thanks so much for listening. See you next week, bye.