
The Singular Fredness of Armisen
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Fred Armisen grew up idolizing trailblazing musicians, from The Beatles to The Clash and The Talking Heads. But spending his twenties drumming in bands never seemed to land him further than moderate crowds and endless nights loading his gear into the van. In need of a change, he turned to comedy, honing the craft of creating characters we know and love him for, on shows like SNL and Portlandia. I connected with Fred while we were both on set in different locales to discuss his unusual pivot, why he still feels an intense yearning for the music he loves, and the strange intimacy of filming a fight scene.
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Transcript
SPEAKERS
David Duchovny, Fred Armisen
David Duchovny 00:00
So I’m talking today with Fred Armisen, who’s a, he’s a friend of mine, and he’s a disarming individual. Fred seems like, he seems like the sweetest guy you’ve ever met. But you know that he’s always observing, and he’s and and and watching in some way. I don’t exactly know how to put it. There’s a there’s a hyper awareness to Fred, but there’s also this disarming kind of niceness. There’s just something otherworldly about Fred. I will say this about Fred too. He’s like the comedian’s comedian, in a way, like you talk to people who do funny for a living, and they love Fred. And I’ll say when we were on set and we had this kickoff dinner beforehand, and Fred just kind of took over that dinner had everybody just laughing at this table, funny people, Keegan, Michael Key, Pedro Pascal, just tickled by Fred. And it’s not he’s not a punchline guy, either he’s a character guy, he’s a and I wouldn’t say that, you know, people say, Oh, he disappears into these characters impersonations, but my sense is always Fred kind of, yeah, yeah, he disappears. But he there’s always something quintessentially Fred that remains when he’s doing it. I’m not saying that he’s not committing fully, but there’s just this quality of Fred-ness. It’s very strong, very strong. And I kind of want to, I kind of want to get at it today, if possible, the Fred-ness of it all.
David Duchovny 01:38
I’m David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better show where failure, not success shapes who we are. Fred Armisen is an actor. He’s a comedian and he’s a drummer. That’s a strange combo. He got to start in the punk band Trenchmouth in the late 1980s in Chicago, but after struggling for years as a musician, he pivoted to comedy, which people don’t do, and they certainly don’t get cast in SNL Saturday Night Live right after doing that, but that’s what happened with Fred. You follow that up with Portlandia and documentary now, all while he was appearing in so many other movies and TV shows with usually small but always memorable parts and characters. He’s still a musician at heart. He’s he’s the band leader for the he band on Late Night with Seth Meyers. We shot a film called The bubble that came out in 2022 and we had a fight scene together, and that’s where we started. We started with a fight. Here’s my conversation with Fred.
David Duchovny 02:50
Hey, Fred.
Fred Armisen 02:57
Hi.
David Duchovny 02:58
Where are you, Fred?
Fred Armisen 03:00
I’m in Dublin, Ireland.
David Duchovny 03:01
You are? What are you? What are you doing? What are you doing there?
Fred Armisen 03:05
Um, second season of the show, Wednesday.
David Duchovny 03:08
Okay, great.
Fred Armisen 03:09
The Adams family show.
David Duchovny 03:10
Yeah, yeah.
Fred Armisen 03:12
That’s why my that’s why my head is all shaved.
David Duchovny 03:13
Oh, uncle Fester.
Fred Armisen 03:16
Yep.
David Duchovny 03:19
Who was it? Was the original Uncle Fester. What was that? Actor’s name was? He was a child. He was a child? Jackie Coogan, yeah, yeah. I loved that show when I was a kid.
Fred Armisen 03:28
So did I, I loved it.
David Duchovny 03:30
Yeah, so I wanted to talk a little bit about our bubble fight scene, because I know, I know you want to talk about that.
Fred Armisen 03:37
Yeah, so it’s like a movie within a movie. And I as the director, am choreographing or helping choreograph a fight scene that David’s character is doing. So it’s like a the director’s coming in to say, hey, let’s do this. And you come under and, you know, you defend yourself here, push you down. And in my mind, I’m like, I’m doing like, a fight scene with David Duchovny, over and over and over. So it’s one thing on SNL, you do a fight scene and you don’t see the person, but, like, it’s kind of intimate. I’m like, I’m like, really looking at his skin, David, for a long time early in the morning, over and over our the our arms are hitting each other over and over. It’s like choreographed, and looks kind of lame in its own way. Well, and then.
David Duchovny 04:31
That was the hard part I found, in the in the actual doing of it, was to, how do we do this in a way that looks like we’re trying to be good at it, and yet is still lame. There’s that fine line between, you know, winking, that you’re really sucking at this, and actually trying hard to not suck, but sucking even worse.
Fred Armisen 04:55
Well, my way out of that was just trying my best all the way through. So. However lame it looks on screen, that was me really trying to do a good fight scene, like I didn’t to, in my mind I was doing a really good job.
David Duchovny 05:14
I think I feel like that’s kind of a key for you in general, and a lot of the characters that you play that we can touch on later as we talk about it, but there is kind of a blissful unself awareness of how bad you might be coming off.
Fred Armisen 05:35
Yeah.
David Duchovny 05:35
And just pushing, pushing on through just like no self doubt, in a way.
Fred Armisen 05:41
No, I try to pretend like I really like the character. So this way, I’m not like, ever making fun of the character or anything.
David Duchovny 05:51
What does that mean? You pretend to like the character. I understand what not making fun of the character means, and I am. I am the same. But what does it mean to pretend that you like the character?
Fred Armisen 06:00
So if there’s a character like a dictator, I’ve done sketches on SNL where play the dictator of of Iran or something, even if I’m doing that, I just try to think like I try to take away any like baggage about him, and just think, and by pretend, I mean I just ignore everything that I might think I know about him, and think, okay, this is a person, and I just want to portray the person without the rest of it so this way, and it’s Not for any like other reason than to just make it, I just try to make it a likable character.
David Duchovny 06:45
I think what you might be saying there, too is that the idea is that most people actually like themselves in a fundamental way, right? And I think that’s true of what, what I see in your work a lot, is that there’s a wonderful kind of oblivious self love in, in a lot of the characters that you’ll do and and somehow that like goes around the horn, you know, from being like, if you saw that in in life, you would probably detest that person. But you do a magic trick somehow where you make it funny and light. And I’m not sure what. I’m not sure how you do that. Maybe you just do it instinctually. But I think that’s that’s kind of a gift there to play that kind of self absorption in a way that is you can both laugh at it, but also and you’re in on the joke, although you’re not winking. I know it’s a complicated thing you’re doing, and I’m not doing a very good job of describing it.
Fred Armisen 07:40
No, listen that’s very kind, and I appreciate it coming from you. And I think some of it comes from being on SNL, where, if you do a character and you’re starting to, like, make fun of them, or you’re starting to be mean about them, the audience there starts to check out a little bit. They do start to kind of like, I don’t know what it is you could feel.
David Duchovny 08:05
Why do you think that is?
Fred Armisen 08:07
I think people just, I can’t speak for everybody, but like, it’s a thing where people don’t want to be bummed out, like they’re bummed out enough as it is, and they’re like, I don’t need also, maybe there could be a thing also, of like, people not needing a character to be explained to them, you know, like, yeah, by the way, this, you know, this is a bad guy or something like, I think people are, my instinct is that people are like, yeah, I’ll make my own decision. I don’t need you to point out the faults of this person. I’ll figure it out, don’t worry about it.
David Duchovny 08:41
Interesting, and do you have, do you have examples of where you might have gone, you know, too far in that direction, and you felt like, oh, I fucked that one up. I commented on it, or I spoon fed, no.
Fred Armisen 08:54
Because I, I don’t even think back, really, like, I don’t in that way. I’m just like, either it worked or it didn’t. And if something didn’t work, then great. It’s, you know, that it’s like having, if you have an album and there’s one song that isn’t that great, oh, well, I don’t know, skip over it or something. You know, you don’t have to listen to that one or.
David Duchovny 09:15
Well, yeah, and I think on this thing, on this podcast, where I always try to figure out, you know, thread the needle between the failure and the pain of that, and then the lesson in that, if there is a lesson, or if it’s just like one of those bumps in the road. And it seems to me that, you know, at least on SNL, there was something about the speed at which you had to do it, because you had to do next week, whatever. You couldn’t really obsess on whether or not that that character was gonna hit or not, right? You just had to know.
Fred Armisen 09:46
No you just had, like, you had like a day like you had Sunday to kind of.
David Duchovny 09:51
A day of mourning.
Fred Armisen 09:52
Yeah, and the longer I was on the show, the more I realized. It was a waste of time obsessing about, like.
David Duchovny 10:04
Did you obsess at first?
Fred Armisen 10:06
I’m not too bad, but enough that, like, I started to think, how did I make a mistake in that sketch? So let’s say, my early years at SNL, there’s you. Everyone’s heard about sketches that don’t go in the air as time as the night goes on, something else will get cut, and then something else, or a short film will get cut. And in my early days, I would, I would sort of think about like, How can I do it again so that I get it right? Are the other writers upset that I tried to write this sketch that didn’t work? A lot of things that were like, look, just treating it as if it’s the only time that there’s the only chance I had. So over the years, I discovered, oh, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. You come up with something else later. Sometimes those characters slip into some other character that does eventually go on the air. So it just took a couple of years of that, of oh no, and then after a while, Oh, it’s nothing. It is really like. It is like a river. It’s like a constantly just goes and goes and goes. And you start to get stronger at not wasting time and being precious about your own comedy. That was like, I went in there, like I got this audition at SNL, and I did it. I must be a really, you know, brilliant writer. I must be so great. And then you realize it’s not just go, go, go, go, go, go, it’s okay.
David Duchovny 11:44
And how did you feel about I’ve had those, those feelings when I’ll be driving home from set and I’ll be obsessing on a scene that I did that day, and I, for whatever reason, I feel like it could have gone a different way, and I don’t do that anymore. I’m just like, fuck it. You know what happened? Was supposed to happen very kind of fatalistic, and not really my philosophy at all. You know, like, whatever will be will be, that’s not me. But on the way home from set, I’m usually like, well, you know, I did my best, or whatever the moment. And usually the the intellectual part of my mind is not the one coming up with the creative ideas. So in the car, that’s the part of my mind that’s going, oh, you should have done this, and you should have done that, and then I’ll go, yeah, that is exactly wrong. Yes, you know, so it’s usually the part of my brain that is instinctual and emotional and reactive that is making the decisions on set. Because, as you say, it’s a river, even any set is a river, it’s flowing fast. You got to do it now. So you have to rely on that part of yourself that is not intellectual, not rational, and that’s scary, though that’s scary at first, it’s like because there’s no foundation.
Fred Armisen 12:53
The thing that’s funny about that is that you also imagine everyone else on set applauding and going, Whoa, I can’t believe you did that. And no, I’m meaning like, if I think, like, oh, back, and I did it differently. Oh, they would have just, everyone would have been laughing. And it doesn’t, doesn’t work that way. It’s like, no, there was something about the chemistry of that lighting, the time of day, what the director wanted. And it’s almost none of my business of how it came out. It’s like it just came out, how it came out, the director was happy.
David Duchovny 13:27
Isn’t that fascinating that your performance is none of your business? That’s such a wonderful, counterintuitive thing to think. You know my dad, who knew nothing about acting. I never knew an actor growing up. I grew up around the same time you did. You were in Long Island. I was in New York, and I love to talk about that a little bit. But my dad came. We had one shot on The X Files pilot, actually, this is like 1993 that we had to shoot at a on a gimbal, on an airplane, you know, fake airplane where, you know, we go through turbulence, shit comes out of the overhead luggage bins. And spooky Mulder says, you know, this must be the place, you know, whatever character thing. And my dad was an extra, and the the stuff comes down, you know, and we do it like, 10 times. And he says, How many times we’re going to have to do, you know? Firstly, like, you know, people are always amazed that it’s that repetitive. And then at lunchtime, we’re getting lunch, and he says to me, you know, the trick of it is not anticipating, yeah, well, you know, it took me about 10 years to learn that, but well done, dad for learning.
David Duchovny 14:33
Yeah, and I really loved meeting you on the bubble, and I loved working, and I loved getting to know you little and it was during the pandemic, so, we just really, we were kind of all thrown together in London that way. And one of the kind things you did was, I was writing this book that turned into the reservoir, and I asked you to, I had to do the audiobook or something, and I asked you for a German accent. I’m bad at accents. I I’m just not confident. You know, I’d love to, I’d love to have to do one and have time to figure it out. But what I thought when I saw that, aside from your facility was, Gee, I wonder how this kid grew up. Like, what kind of a person learns to do all those voices? And it made me an accent, and it made me just wonder about what it was like in Long Island at that time for you in the family you were in, if you could just speak a little about what little Fred Armisen was up to back then, and what he felt like and what he was thinking.
Fred Armisen 16:07
Well, thank you for that, by the way, for you know, saying that about the accents thing. And I grew up on Long Island, but my dad is German and my mom is Venezuelan, so they already had accents, and we they were from, from German and oh yeah, yeah, I’m from first generation American. And so we landed in New York, which is like, accent heavy, yeah. And then while I was in New York, we moved to Brazil for a couple years. My dad worked for IBM, so we had to go to Rio de Janeiro when I was in second and third grade, and then back to New York. So there was just a lot of exposure to different accents. That’s all that, that is. There was just, like travel, simple as that, like, my parents had accents, you know, they taught me Spanish and stuff. And then New York is filled with accents. And then just the travel is what kind of, you know, sharpened my ear to that kind of thing.
David Duchovny 17:05
If I if I’d met you when you were a kid of like, 9 or 10, and I said, Fred, what are you gonna do? What’s up? What? What’s the plan? What’s the plan for.
Fred Armisen 17:16
9 and 10? I was really into the Beatles. And I think I was, like, somehow focused on going towards whatever that was. And this is, like, after they broke up. This is 1976 or so. So there was already pomcardian wings and all their solo stuff, but I saw it all as Beatles. To me, I was like, it’s all Beatles so.
David Duchovny 17:38
You did.
Fred Armisen 17:38
I would say that was a focus of my attention was like, How can I learn to play instruments to get closer to what they are?
David Duchovny 17:47
What was it about The Beatles? I mean, I love the Beatles too. But what was it about the Beatles for you that was so magical?
Fred Armisen 17:53
There was something, you know, I don’t need to to explain the Beatles, but, but you know what I mean, but I want to hear the drums are what got me first on I am the Walrus. But there’s something about them around Magical Mystery Tour that album, where they’re kind of in costumes, and they’re kind of like have masks on and stuff. So something in there attracted me to like it seemed like an other place. It seemed so not like Long Island. It seems so not like Brazil. It was like this other. What is this place England? What is this place that where that they come up with music like that.
David Duchovny 18:34
So you were gonna drum your way to England somehow. You know, I remember. I remember loving the Beatles as well and and it was kind of bittersweet, because they were the band that my parents were okay with me listening to, you know, so then I kind of killed it a little bit for me. So I kind of gravitated towards the stones more.
Fred Armisen 18:54
Oh, I see them.
David Duchovny 18:57
I needed to rebel. And I think it’s interesting. What you’re talking about is, is it was a rebellion. You’re talking about growing up in Long Island. Your dad’s an IBM, you know, nine to five, or did he live to see your your success, success as an actor, and.
Fred Armisen 19:14
Yeah, oh, yeah.
David Duchovny 19:16
That’s wonderful. And how has that been a very satisfying, kind of.
Fred Armisen 19:20
So satisfying, because he’s tickled by it, because meaning, like, we don’t come from, like, that kind of showbiz. He didn’t raise me to be, like, I really want you to get into comedy and music. And so it’s like a nice surprise for him, and it’s a nice surprise for my mom, because she watched SNL, or whatever watches SNL. So, but the thing that was funny about it is that we have the same name. My dad is also Fred Armisen, so he likes that car to him, it’s funny to him. He’s like, Oh my God, that’s like, my name, yeah. And there I am, you know?
David Duchovny 19:58
But was he a performer at all, like as no at home.
Fred Armisen 20:01
No, but he’s, but his dad was.
David Duchovny 20:03
His dad was.
Fred Armisen 20:06
His dad was raised in Japan and was a Japanese dancer, like a performance artist dancer in Japan. So it sort of skipped my dad, and then it just.
David Duchovny 20:17
Went to me, what is that guy? Like the grandfather?
Fred Armisen 20:22
Visual avant garde, really creative. Had a fascinating life. He had traveled all over had kids all over the world, or all over Europe. And I went to his like, you didn’t meet.
David Duchovny 20:39
You didn’t meet him.
Fred Armisen 20:41
I met him when I was a kid a couple times.
David Duchovny 20:42
You did, yeah.
Fred Armisen 20:43
Yeah, but I didn’t have, like, a close relationship with Him. But a musical guy who, like, did these, like dance performances as different characters. I went to his museum or library or something in Tokyo, near Tokyo.
David Duchovny 20:56
Really?
Fred Armisen 20:58
Like a dance studio, and there’s pictures of him as different characters.
David Duchovny 21:02
What do you mean? There’s an actual museum for.
Fred Armisen 21:06
It’s like, it’s like the upstairs part of a dance studio, and it’s set up like a museum. And you sort of go around and you look at, like, his costumes and his promotional photos and stuff he had all kinds of like theory on dance and kinetic movement and electronic music. He’s an incredible Masami Kuni, K, U N, I.
David Duchovny 21:29
So if we go back to you, when do you start drumming? How old are you when you start.
Fred Armisen 21:33
When I must have been 10 or 11 or something, so that’s like fourth or fifth grade. I started taking drum lessons.
David Duchovny 21:39
Did you have a mentor? Do you have mentor at school or a drum teacher, or somebody that said.
Fred Armisen 21:46
I had a drum teacher who came to my house and gave me drum lessons, and his name was Joe Martinet, and he was, like, the first cool guy I ever saw, like a rock and roll guy.
David Duchovny 21:58
Oh, he was rock and roll.
Fred Armisen 22:00
Yeah, not totally like long hair rock and roll, but kind of longish hair rock and roll, yeah.
David Duchovny 22:05
So Long Island rock and roll.
Fred Armisen 22:07
Long Island and very like, sort of like thin in that rock and roll thin way, you know? And he really, like, taught me not just about drums, but he was, like, you should learn every instrument so that when you’re in a band, you know what they’re all talking about and what they’re all doing. Like, you should pick up the guitar, you should know the bass. So it was very band oriented. And we would talk about records, he’d be like, well, that guy’s pretty much just copying Keith Moon. So try to know more about Keith Moon. It was the best. And I think about him all the time, like he really changed my life. Like it wasn’t just like a teacher. He was more like, this can actually be fun. This can be like a fun part of your life.
David Duchovny 22:53
I mean, it’s so important. My mother was a teacher, and I think about it a lot. You know, you’re lucky in your life if you come across that one person, you know, that one person that can sees you. It’s really a moment when that teacher actually sees the person in front of them. It’s not about teaching them a certain thing, but sees the soul in front of them. And can say, hey, maybe this is a possibility. Yeah, you know, you’re not there yet. You’re just a kid, but this impulse you have to drum. That’s real honor. It could be fun. Doesn’t have to be work, doesn’t have to be just practice. That’s a good thing. But what is, what did your mom teach? She taught first and second grade. She taught kids how to read. And I walk around the village. I grew up in the East Village, and she taught at Grace Church school. I don’t know if you know if you know where that is, on 11th Street and Fourth Avenue. And I walk around the village now, and people will stop me. Three generations of people will stop me and say, Your mom taught my mother. Your mom taught my daughter, your mom taught my granddaughter. And she is that teacher. Was that teacher that made that difference, and she was somebody. She was a fierce protector of she’s a Scottish woman. Grew up with nothing, and she just protected people that had nothing. She always protected the kids that were the underdogs, and she would fucking fight for them. And it was just the most beautiful part of her. And when I walk around the village, I’m reminded of that. I mean, this guy said to you, you could be a drummer and look, you did it.
Fred Armisen 24:29
Yeah, yeah.
David Duchovny 24:31
It would have been so easy to squash that, like saying.
Fred Armisen 24:33
Oh, totally or just turned it into, here’s your rudiments. This is what the book says. Just practice this. It was very just, he just really helped me, like, grow as a drummer. It was, he was really great. But also, to your point about the East Village, it’s funny thinking of because I remember finding out that you grew up in the village, which is so rare I’m bare. Don’t know anybody. And it’s funny, thinking of the East Village as a small town that, like, it is your mom, your mom, you know, local teacher, all that’s tough. It’s like, it is a small town, but like, you know, it’s hard to see it that way.
David Duchovny 25:14
Yeah, and you mentioned, um, rebellion too,
Fred Armisen 25:20
Yeah.
David Duchovny 25:21
And I wanted to talk about that because I’m a little older than you, but we both grew up kind of at the tail end of the 60s. You know, as the 60s faded into what it became, and you went into punk. I never went into punk, but, but I think we share the failure of the 60s. I think our generation are really the inheritors of that. It didn’t work, the Revolution didn’t happen. And, in fact, those people kind of cashed in and and you, I think you’ve described punk as the rebellion against the rebellion. And I can you, can you speak on that?
Fred Armisen 26:03
I guess so. I mean, like, we have a different view of New York, because you experience it really from the inside. And I’m from Long Island, so like, I felt like, with high school, it looked, it just seemed lame. I was like, I don’t like the sort of, like stoner jean jacket wizards, you know, potions and all that stuff. Like, I just wasn’t into it. And like things like John Waters movies and Devo and talking heads that seemed like that’s that seemed like the right thing to bring into high school. It made so much sense to me, like that’s what I was rebelling against. It was how lame that stuff, and also a lot of that music, although I appreciate it now, was too like slow and lumbering with it. Was just like something about it. I needed some an up tempo, too. Yeah, drummer. He did a little and so it was also a way for me to bond with my friends. I remember, I didn’t really want to shock my parents. I mean, I got a mohawk, but I remember playing craft work. Do you ever hear craft work, Tronic band from I like playing them on my stereo loud, because that’s a real surprise. If I played, like, screaming solos of rock music, that’s like a cliche teenager like, so what? But to play craft work was great in my house, because my parents weren’t offended or upset. They were like, what is this? You know? So it was, it was that kind of rebellion. I didn’t, you know, I, for the most part, got along with my parents, so I wasn’t out to, like, prove them wrong or anything, you know.
David Duchovny 27:51
But you were out to get out of Valley Stream for sure.
Fred Armisen 27:53
Yeah, I want to be into the city. I remember wanting to be in the city all the time.
David Duchovny 27:58
So the dream is, is forming of, I’m going to be a drummer. At what point is the dream forming that I’m going to be in a band, and that’s going to be my life.
Fred Armisen 28:06
It’s people like Mark mother’s bath is the singer from diva, and David Byrne, where I was like, I wanted to be that kind of person who’s that kind of person who is, like, making music, but also very visual.
David Duchovny 28:22
Well, there’s like, almost like a performance art you’re talking about.
Fred Armisen 28:25
Yeah, right, yeah. I was like, what is that? I would see these bands on TV, and I was like, that’s where I want to be. And I remember seeing a lot of these bands, the B- 52’s on SNL. Oh, they’re so great. And whatever that was, like, the B-52 were so colorful and fun and uptempo that I was like, How do I get towards that? I don’t know if it’s drumming. I don’t know what it is, but I want to go towards whatever that is.
David Duchovny 28:58
Was it an intense yearning? Was it like?
Fred Armisen 29:02
It’s so intense.
David Duchovny 29:03
What did that feel like?
Fred Armisen 29:05
It’s so intense that I feel it now like I can watch that B 52 performance, or I’ll go see them, or Devo, or or David Byrne, and I still get that feeling, and it actually still feels like a fight, even though I’m not fighting against anything. It is like a victory. Just watching them. I still feel like, yeah, you know, like, this is how it should be. Like, I still live in it. I don’t know if that’s, you know.
David Duchovny 29:38
I think it’s beautiful. It’s like time travel.
Fred Armisen 29:41
It’s like time travel.
David Duchovny 29:43
When you got to that point where, you know, let’s jumping ahead, and you’re like, Oh, you’re in trench mouth, and you’re in a band like, you feel like you made it, you made it, like, that’s, is that it? I’m in, I’m in a punk ish band, and I’m playing. that I like and, and, but was there more that you still wanted at that point?
Fred Armisen 30:05
Yeah, I remember, we had a great time. We toured everywhere. I learned a lot, I drummed a lot, made really good friends, but we didn’t get to that level of like, it sounds so corny now, but of like being on TV, being a musical guest of a talk show on TV, or having, like, overseas fans, that kind of thing, and that felt kind of rough at the time, I felt stagnant. I was like, this is great, but we’re not moving ahead the way that I want to.
David Duchovny 30:43
So you have to, you have to kind of admit that this is failing on some level for you, failing, failing on some level.
Fred Armisen 30:51
Yes.
David Duchovny 30:51
And you have to take a chance, because how old are you now? What have you got 30?
Fred Armisen 30:59
I’m already like, 30 something, you know?
David Duchovny 31:03
Yeah, that’s terrifying, 30 is terrifying. And I’m just thinking, I know it worked out for you, but I’m thinking, I want to know, I just want to know how it felt at that inflection point in your life, and also just the perseverance that you would have had in the belief to go, Okay, I’m gonna march in this direction. Where did that come from?
Fred Armisen 31:26
It was more less than fear. It was frustration. So if you could picture the word like, Darn, you know when you mean the word darn like, you know, and you’re just like, I worked so hard for eight years on this Bannon, damn it. You know, like, it’s like a it’s like, really walking up to a wall, like, and so my way out wasn’t even like, trying to get out. It was, what can I do in the meantime, while I figure out what the problem was, can I do in the meantime? First thing was that I was playing drums for a Blue Man Group in Chicago, and I would play these shows, and I was in a blue man I was a drummer in one of the drummers in the band, and I was starting to earn money from show business. Like, I was like, ah, this is an actual check. And the audiences were always sold out. So I was a little bit like.
David Duchovny 32:32
They loved me.
Fred Armisen 32:34
Or, or there’s people out there, yeah. So playing in the in the band was like, where is everybody? They’re not here. I don’t know where they are. Maybe there’s no such thing as crowds. And then at Blue main group, I was like, Okay, people do pay money to go see stuff, so they’re out there. And then my wife at the time, Sally, who was like, in a band, this band, the me cons.
David Duchovny 33:00
It was really a very successful band.
Fred Armisen 33:02
Yeah, yeah really into British comedy. And she showed me these tapes of this comedian, Dennis Pennis, who do, like pranks with video cameras and stuff. And I was like, there’s a way, I was like, something about that is intriguing. So I bought a video camera, and I went to this festival called South by Southwest, yes, 1998 and I did this thing where I would like interview people as characters, fake characters, a German interviewer, a blind interviewer, you know, a college student, all these, all these things that like ended up being one videotape that sort of made the rounds. A friend edited it for me, and it ended up being a sort of calling card to get to do stuff, to do comedy. I showed that at a club, and the local paper wrote about it, and then little by little, I started getting more jobs as a comedian. And that never stopped that moment in 1998 was where I would get one gig with HBO. Someone somewhere else wanted me to do something. And little by little, I was doing it more as as a living. So the moment of Darn it, of damn it, I’m going to do this thing in the meantime, that thing I was doing in the meantime, snowballed. It had a snowball effect of like that turned into, thank God, a route away from it. I got to escape the fear of I’m not a good enough drummer. I didn’t have to address it even it was almost like, I’m gonna put the drumsticks down for a minute.
David Duchovny 34:44
I didn’t know that it was fear of not being a good enough drummer. I thought it was fear of this band not making it big enough to satisfy some ambition that I have.
Fred Armisen 34:52
It’s a combination, but you do tend to, you know, because let’s say that the band was breaking up, I would really, I would want to think, I hope some other band hires me. There’s always in the back of your mind, like, do the Red Hot Chili Peppers need somebody? Does Fugazi need somebody? You know, and I was just getting older, so that’s, I guess, where the fear was. I was like, Man, I’m early 30s. Whenever I was 32, 33 who wants this drummer who, you know, that you know. So that was a, you know, to, to put it this way, it’s just like a kind of a lucky break of things that happen between Blue Man Group and making that video that set me on my way.
David Duchovny 35:40
And then you auditioned for Mad TV, and you didn’t get it, right?
Fred Armisen 35:44
Yeah. So I was, I moved to LA, would audition for stuff, and I remember, yeah, I auditioned for Mad TV.
David Duchovny 35:53
We auditioning for, like, sitcoms and so like that, because I, when I moved out to LA, I I didn’t get so many shows. I can’t tell you how many shows I didn’t get.
Fred Armisen 36:02
I don’t think I auditioned for. I think I did not audition for any sitcoms. I’m I mean, I must have not had an in to even be considered, right? But I auditioned for Mad TV, maybe because of characters and stuff, right? And I remember really wanting it, like, this is it. Here’s my big chance. And you know when I didn’t get it?
David Duchovny 36:27
Now, you’re 35 you’re 34.
Fred Armisen 36:29
Yeah, 34 I just remember thinking like, whoa, that that was my big chance, you know, and by the way, it’s not that I’m not an ambitious person or a confident person. I was just like, I just like, I just thought, that’s how things work. You know, I don’t live in New York. How would I ever get an audition to no by the way, that that feeling of of not getting it, it lasted a week. I can’t I don’t think I.
David Duchovny 36:56
It interesting anymore.
Fred Armisen 36:58
No, no, no, and it was fine. It wasn’t like, you know, I don’t know it was okay. It was just, I wasn’t devastated. I was more like, oh, that would have been a good opportunity.
David Duchovny 37:09
Yeah, I had plenty of those pilots that I went up for when I was first out in LA, and I thought each one was going to be the break, you know, yeah. And I just, I just needed to, you know, be able to pay my rent too. That was an important thing, because I just wanted a job. And I would get pretty devastated for a week or so, and then, and then, you know, you just have another audition or whatever, you just got to keep going forward.
Fred Armisen 37:31
Isn’t that funny? Because sometimes you look at some script and you’re like, this is it.
David Duchovny 37:38
This is going to change. I auditioned for all three parts on Full House, yeah, yeah, I tested. I tested at the network. At first they had me for, I think, the dad, and then they had me for the Stamos character, and then they had me for the other guy. And I was thinking, I got to get one of these, and it’s going to change my life. And by the way, I was really bad at that kind of stuff, like I did not know how to do that sitcom stuff. I don’t know what they were thinking, that they thought I was going to exist in that world. I mean, I guess I could have learned, but I wasn’t ready. I wasn’t ready for that kind of energetic performance that they that they need.
Fred Armisen 38:22
I mean, it really worked out for you, apparently. But I remember now that, see, I have not thought about this.
David Duchovny 38:29
Yeah.
Fred Armisen 38:30
I remember I auditioned for a couple things. God knows even what they were. I don’t even know what they were, but they were stuff that was, like, improvised. This is like, you know, 2001 and they were like, yeah, this is happening now. A lot of you know, improvisational comedies and and I always thought like, Oh, I’m gonna get this right. This is something I’m gonna get. I don’t have to learn lines and, oh, my God, I I’ve never heard back from any of them. I don’t even know what what those shows were.
David Duchovny 38:59
And I never it, never it, never blocked your confidence. And I’m saying for myself too, I would say, if you’d had asked me, even though I had 100 auditions and didn’t book a job, I would have said, I’m doing something, I’m doing something I know I’m doing something, somebody’s going to see it, somebody is going to see it, and I’m going to get a job, and it’s going to be okay, because I know I’m doing something, even though nobody is telling me I’m doing something.
Fred Armisen 39:28
I was already leaps away from what I’d been doing three years earlier, which is, like, loading drums into a van. So I was like, hey, I’m in LA, I’m really in LA and I’m walking into these studios and, like, you know, getting to have a parking pass at some fancy studio, so I was already, like, a way ahead of where I wanted to be, you know, when I was in a band. So I was pretty psyched.
David Duchovny 40:23
One thing that I, I think I perceive in your characters and in your work, and in your love of music, and the way you have incorporated that into the stand up that you’ve been doing, is you have, you’re, you’re this really volatile mixture to me, of I think you’re a satirist. You’re satirizing much, but you’re also really nostalgic, and have a lot of love for the thing you’re satirizing like I listen to Catalina breeze, you know, I’m hearing glamor profession by Steely Dan. You know, I’m thinking, I bet he loved Steely Dan, but he also kind of can see through Steely Dan, and I feel like you’re constantly perched, you know, between love and almost a disgust or, you know, and that must be a very interesting place for your head to be in and to be able to kind of create out of that place.
Fred Armisen 41:22
Yeah, it definitely all comes from love and admiration for all the punk stuff that I did, which is satire, still all about bands that I loved and I’ve done, and then for documentary now, we did a parody of talking heads, same kind of thing, where it’s like, of course, I love talking heads, but it was, you know, still a parody of their movie.
David Duchovny 41:43
Yeah, yeah. So the question becomes, where did you get the confidence in the instinct, the confidence, you know, the confidence to overcome other failures, the confidence to overcome.
Fred Armisen 41:59
I think it’s like a feeling of nothing to lose. And it, I have a suspicion that some of it is from moving around so much when I was a kid, from, you know, country to country, something in there was, like, whenever I landed and was, you know, back in school, or whatever, it all worked out for a little Freddy.
David Duchovny 42:26
Yeah, you described yourself as an atheist. And this is very interesting to me. Is that fair to say that you’re an atheist?
Fred Armisen 42:34
I feel less that I’m an atheist. I feel I feel more like I believe in God.
David Duchovny 42:39
Oh, are you maybe an agnostic?
Fred Armisen 42:43
Sure, sure, yeah.
David Duchovny 42:44
But I, well, I was going to ask, because what I find to be a fascinating discussion is, you know, people are scared of atheists because they don’t think they have ethics, because they think all the only ethics come from the Bible. But in fact, you know, you can get ethics, you know, anywhere philosophy. And I was, I was just wondering, how did you grow your ethics, if you weren’t, you know, you grew up an atheist, I guess, or you were atheist for most.
Fred Armisen 43:12
Kindof, yeah, I felt like atheism was like a youthful, like a.
David Duchovny 43:19
Punk rebellion.
Fred Armisen 43:20
Yeah, it was, like, a tool of like, but I don’t it’s like, every time I would say something in the news about, you know, some sort of, like, new religious movement, well, I’m an atheist, so it doesn’t matter like, it’s a very like, well, there’s no guy. The Bible doesn’t make any sense anyway, look at it so, and not that I follow any religion, but more so, and I such a cliche of getting older, the way that the good things that have happened to me and just the how amazing life is, I have to have a sense of gratitude. And when friends of mine die, I have to have some sort of, it has to have some meaning to me, besides, like, oh, well, so it just helps me. Like, yeah, it’s just something that, like, helps me. It actually keeps me like, grateful, and actually it makes me like, I just appreciate everything more, that’s just me, I know.
David Duchovny 44:34
No, I, I’m not judging at all, I mean, I, I find gratitude to be like, WD40, it’s the most versatile lubricant there is. I mean, nobody doesn’t like gratitude. In fact, there’s something that happened to me. I went to rehab in whatever year it was, and I was and then I was at a meeting afterwards, and I had to go to the Golden Globes, and I was terrified, because, you know, they’re gonna ask me questions. And I said it to the group. I said, I gotta go go on globes tomorrow. Big Shot, you know. But, and this guy next to me said, I said, What are they gonna they’re gonna say, How’s the family? How’s, you know, like, all these questions I’m not gonna answer. You know, none of their fucking business and stuff that I’m hurting over, you know. And I’m afraid when the question comes, I’m gonna make I’m gonna cry, you know. And the guy goes, just be grateful for the question. And I go, oh, that could be fun. So I get on the red carpet and somebody from like, the entertainment, oh, David, a tough, tough couple months, huh? Ooh, Howard, how’s the family, you know? And I go, you know, I’m not going to talk about it, but I’m really, I’m really thankful that you asked that question, and I’m really grateful that you care, and I’m thank you for asking about them and and me and and I saw the person’s face just he started to like himself more. You know, I know that the he went in with that question kind of like a vulture, and then when I, all I did was thank him for asking about me, and it was such a lesson to me. Obviously, it’s a little manipulative in the situation, a little self defensive, yes, guilty, but I’ve never seen a situation which gratitude is not a magical thing.
Fred Armisen 46:40
It just stops time, a little bit too. It also gets protects me from, like, getting in my head about something, like, it’s nice that, you know, it’s nice, like you said, it’s nice to hear you you’re being asked to do something.
David Duchovny 46:54
Right, you know, it kind of fights the the ambition part. That’s like, yes, where am I going? Where? Why is that guy doing that thing? And why am I not doing that thing?
Fred Armisen 47:06
Yeah, I know, yeah, all that, all that stuff or like, yeah, why are they making me film in Toronto? You know, it’s so far, the flight’s so long. It’s like, wait a minute, it’s awesome. You know, Canada’s a nice hotel. I’m sorry that it’s not right outside your door in LA but.
David Duchovny 47:25
Yeah, if you want that, you’ll have to do it yourself.
Fred Armisen 47:29
Yeah, so sorry, next job, next up will be there.
David Duchovny 47:32
So have you grown your ethics in a way? What’s your burgeoning belief in some kind of God? Have your ethics changed or?
Fred Armisen 47:44
I feel like my ethics have just changed with age. I think I feel, I hopefully, that it’s that and a little bit of, like, just a little bit of time to kind of, like, see things differently. I think that’s the two things that have sort of changed ethics.
David Duchovny 48:05
Yeah, I think, I think as you get older, you’re you, you’ve been on both sides of the ball, usually, you know, and when you’re younger, you’re probably playing one side more than the other and then, you know, you go through it from the other side, and then all of a sudden, your perspective changes, and you go, I can be better.
Fred Armisen 48:25
Yeah whereas, like, when you’re younger, it’s like, what’s everybody’s problem?
David Duchovny 48:31
I’m just living my life.
Fred Armisen 48:32
Yeah, and after a while, as you get older.
Fred Armisen 48:35
You live your life too.
Fred Armisen 48:36
Yeah, it’s like, wow, take care of your society, yeah. And also, there’s also, like, there’s also the feeling of, like, your friends love you, so your friends love you. How can you know, yeah, how can I exist with that in a sort of even way it’s hard to describe, but it’s like, how do you honor that.
David Duchovny 49:01
Honor your friendships. Honor your friends.
Fred Armisen 49:02
Yeah, just kind of like, just honor your friendships.
David Duchovny 49:05
So it’s not just like, honor the person that you’re in a love relationship with, it’s it’s honor.
Fred Armisen 49:10
it’s the yeah, the whole group. And I feel like I have also feel better about myself and that I had a girlfriend for seven years, recently, Natasha, and I was with her for a long time, and I felt like I was a successful relationship, like I liked the feeling of that I was like that ended well, it like we’re still friends. And it made me feel like that was like part of getting older, that I was like, I can approach being in a relationship in a different way, and I can look back at I can even look back at that relationship with a sort of peaceful happiness, like and that’s how it was, and that’s where gratitude comes in. And that’s where, like, that’s where I that’s where, like, you know, the idea of God comes in where I’m, like, you know, that’s what helps me through it.
David Duchovny 50:08
Well, we’re so programmed to believe that if a relationship ends that it’s a failure of some kind.
Fred Armisen 50:14
Exactly.
David Duchovny 50:14
When I think that’s a benighted way of looking at things, relationships can be raging successes that don’t go until death do us part.
Fred Armisen 50:22
Yes.
David Duchovny 50:23
But we don’t really discuss in that way in this culture. I mean, we have an all or nothing kind of view of the success or failure of a relationship, and it’s supposed to last until you close your eyes for the last time.
Fred Armisen 50:36
Exactly, and then I see, as I get older, too, I see that like so many couples I know break up. I don’t mean that in a negative or a cynical way. I mean like, it makes me go, like, life is like this, life is like this, and there’s different versions of relationships and different versions of success. So it’s a little bit like, it’s what’s great, is it? Then it just calms everything down, like, don’t everything, it’s all right.
David Duchovny 51:06
Yeah, and you’re, you’re carving out a particular individual life that looks very, from my point of view, very unique. And you, you know, being true to you in many ways and what else you gonna do? You know, you can’t live your life by somebody else’s strictures. And you know, although, God knows, I feel the pressure, sometimes, we all feel the pressure sometimes, yeah, and it has ruined many, many a night in my life where I’ve felt like I’m fucking up. I think we should, but.
Fred Armisen 51:41
Everybody feels that way. Everybody feels that way, like I think, or whatever, most a lot of people feel that way.
David Duchovny 51:47
That’s what they must, I think just saying it out loud is such a such a fucking relief, you know. Fred, when you come back to LA, we do have to get together. Are you okay?
Fred Armisen 52:01
We’ve tried.
David Duchovny 52:02
And we should do it. Let’s just be grateful for this, and let’s, let’s act on that gratitude by actually, you know, I’m not asking for a lot. We’re not asking for a lot, you know, it’s just, it’s a meal every now and then.
Fred Armisen 52:17
I still have a framed picture that you sent me where it’s me and you looking in the mirror.
David Duchovny 52:22
Yeah, so where is it? Where is it hanging?
Fred Armisen 52:27
In my I have an office in Frogtown in LA.
David Duchovny 52:31
I’m glad you like it, yeah. So let’s do it, and thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed the conversation, thank you.
David Duchovny 52:39
I was thinking about was Fred is like, he’s there’s something ironic about him, and he’s a satirist at heart, I think. And we talk about this during the discussion, as you know the love behind it, because he loves Devo. I think that’s his number one band. And he either said this to me during the podcast, or I read it somewhere, but he said he was amazed to hear that Devo thought they were making like funk music or soul music, and he got it too when they said it. And I really wish that I’d asked Fred, you know, I’m getting what you’re doing, but I wonder what it is you think you’re doing, like that’s the one thing. What style are you doing? But I know he thinks of Andy Kaufman. That’s an obvious inspiration for him. I know David Letterman’s a hero, right? Lorne Michaels is a mentor and a hero. But does he think he’s doing soul music like is it, would it? Would it surprise us if we asked Fred, would it surprise us as much as Devo thinking it’s doing soul music to hear the kind of comedy Fred thinks he’s doing, or the kind of acting Fred thinks he’s doing. Maybe I’ll get a chance to go back and ask him at some point. But I think even if we don’t have the answer, I think it’s a good way to think of Fred, or the Fred-ness.
Fred Armisen 52:39
I did too.
CREDITS 54:26
There’s more Fail Better with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now and Apple podcasts. Fail Better as a production of Lemonada media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Kegan Zema, Aria Bracci, and Dani Matias . Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neil. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Karpinski and Kate D. Lewis, the show’s executive produced by Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band. Lovely Colin Lee. Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian […]. Special thanks to Brad Davidson. You can find us online at @LemonadaMedia and you can find me @DavidDuchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.