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“I’m sorry you feel that way.” “You’re overreacting.” “You’re acting crazy.” These are some of the most commonly used gaslighting phrases. This week, Jaime defines gaslighting and answers a listener’s question about how narcissism and gaslighting are related. Plus, how to respond to a boss who is gaslighting you and rebuilding trust in yourself after being gaslit by a cheating husband. 

FYI: Tell Me What To Do contains mature language and themes that may not be suitable for all listeners.

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Transcript

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [00:57] Hey, everybody, you are listening to Tell Me What To Do. And I am Jaime, in case you didn’t know. So somebody tweeted, are y’all really just out here eating blue cheese? And I have never related to a tweet more in my life. What the what? Like people are really just out here eat mold? And then got the nerve to want to try to charge me extra for the mold? All this and more on today’s Tell Me What to Do.

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [01:36] I’m disgusted with the blue cheese. And right now someone’s listening like, oh, my God. I’m unfollowing you. This is too much. You’ve gone too far. You’re attacking my blue cheese. Easy, Susan. You can still eat it. Just don’t put it on my salad. Definitely don’t try to kiss me after.

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [02:32] On today’s episode of Tell Me What to Do, we are talking about gaslighting. But before we get to that, I would like to share a few things with you. One being that yesterday was Bi visibility day. What’s that? So glad you asked. It’s a day where we just basically let bisexual people know they are seen. “Why do they need a day? That’s so dumb.” I’ll tell you why. Because we are basically erased from the LGBTQ movement. Because when you’re queer and you’re with the same sex, everybody can see that. It’s like, OK, you’re gay, we see it, you’re gay. When you’re bisexual and you’re with a man, people think you’re straight. And it isn’t that I need so much recognition that I’m bisexual. How can I explain this? I really want to explain this properly. I love being bisexual. I would never want to be straight. I married a man, so I got lucky, civil-rights wise, nobody is trying to take my straight rights away. I can get married and divorced 150 times and nobody would try to take my rights away. But let me marry a woman? Oh, the horror! 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [04:04] I feel like when I want to stand up for the rights of my people — and I do feel that queer, gay people are my people, because I too kissed a girl and I liked it very much, so I kissed her again and again and again and again. I want to be able to stand up for them in a way that people understand why it matters to me, why it’s meaningful. Also, I am probably more queer than I am straight. I love my husband. I love my husband, though not all day every day, but every day. But I love women and I want to be part of that and I want to celebrate that and I want to fight for that and I want people to understand why. When you are not gay, and you are bisexual and you’re in a relationship with a man, people just see you as straight. No matter what you say. I’m like, hey, I’m bisexual. Sure you are. Go back to your man dick. OK. I don’t want to just be recognized as an ally to the LGBTQ community, the way that I try to be to Black and brown people. I want to be a member of, I am a member of. And so bisexual people get erased all the time. Once they marry a man, or a bi man marries a woman, that’s it, you’re erased, you’re straight now. Go live your straight life. And sometimes that bothers me. Every day bothers me, actually, not sometimes. So anyway, it was Bi Visibility Day and I just like shouted out my people on Twitter. I just wanted them to know I saw them on a day that they’re supposed to be seen. And you know what? To anybody who has a problem with people having, like Bi Visibility Day or Gay Pride Month or Black Heritage Month or Jewish or Immigrant Heritage Month or whatever, shut the fuck up. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [06:25] Honestly, just shut up. Keep it to yourself. Who cares if I have Bi Visibility Day? Why does it bother you? Let me just be really fucking visible one day a year. You get to be visible and straight every day of the year. And if it does bother you, dig deep about why. I want you to think about it right now, I want you to go, self, why does this bother me? Why does it bother me that Black people get one month a year, by the way, the shortest month even on leap year? Why does it bother you? Sure, Black Heritage Month, go nuts, have it. Immigrant Heritage Month. OK, yeah. Because unless you were brought here as a slave or you’re a Native American, guess what? You’re an immigrant. Period. I don’t care what anybody tells you. Unless you were brought here as a slave or you are a Native American, you are an immigrant. But I was born here. OK, go back. They were born here. Keep going. You’re eventually going to hit Plymouth fuckin Rock or Ellis Island or somewhere else. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [07:42] Moving on, Ruth Bader Ginsburg. By the time you listen to this podcast, it will be a full week or more since she has passed and I just think that she’s amazing. And listen, anybody who is willing to put the work in to benefiting my life, like, who am I to shit on them? You know what I mean? Like, Oh, sis, you want to go fight for my wages and my right to get a mortgage without a man’s signature and my right to get a credit card or my right to blah, blah, blah? You want to do all that for me and you don’t even know me? You want to dedicate your whole career to that? I love her. Thank you, friend. Thank you for that. And everyone’s like, but abortion! Well, OK, Sally, relax. She was just making sure that women had access to a safe procedure. She wasn’t like, I love abortion, let me go have 100 of them in, like, let me encourage every woman to have one. Nobody does that. Stop with your gaslighting. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [09:00] Because that’s where we’re headed, folks. And I’m coming for you at the gaslighting. Looks like we’re gonna be adapting my book, The Southern Education of a Jersey Girl, into a TV show. Very exciting. Of course, we have a long way to go. But the first hurdle of finding the right producing partner, we did, the second hurdle of finding an amazing show runner, we did. We’re on our way. I wasn’t always sure that I thought but now I know that I think the Southern Education of a Jersey girl will make a great TV show, especially after COVID, where people need faith and friendship and love and all that stuff. So I’m very excited about that. All right. Now, I’ve been talking your ear off. So I want to get to gaslighting, because this is really important. Let’s start by defining it, because so many people ask me what is gaslighting? It is the act of manipulating someone by psychological means into questioning their own sanity. If you hear terms like ‘I’m sorry you feel that way’ or ‘you’re taking it the wrong way’ or ‘you’re crazy. That’s not what I said. That’s not what happened.’ Then you’re probably being gaslight. Obviously, there are some exceptions, like, if they say that to you one time in your relationship, they may really think that’s not what they said. But if this is what you hear every time you have an issue with something that happens, you are being gaslit. I was gaslit. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [10:47] I was in a relationship with a narcissist, as some of you may know, the man that I dated before Michael almost killed me, not physically, but mentally and emotionally. I was dying. I was very close to death. If I was a robot, I was on one percent. Some of the things he used to say to me — because he had sexual dysfunction and issues, any time that I would initiate sex because I wanted to be close to him, he would say, ugh, you’re so aggressive. Nobody likes women that are so aggressive. Like, what man wants to be with a woman that’s constantly nagging him for sex? And I would be like, I don’t constantly nag you. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [11:30] And he would bring up like three times from the last, like, year and lump them together and be like, look how many times you’ve chased me down for this. Like, every time I turn around, you’re behind me. And I started to think, am I doing that? Am I behind him every time he turns around? Am I too aggressive? Will that be a turn-off to men? I started believing the things that he would say to me. And any time that I could get him to apologize, it was never an apology. It was always ‘I’m sorry it’s come to this. I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m sorry you took it that way.’ It was never I’m sorry. When I first started dating Michael, and he said he was sorry the first time ever, he was like, well, I’m sorry. I was ready to pounce on him and then I realized, wait a minute, did he just say I’m sorry and then full stop? So I looked at him. I’m like, you’re sorry? He’s like, yes, I’m sorry. I’m sorry that I said that. I’m sorry that my words hurt you, I don’t ever want to hurt you. I’m sorry. And I was like, holy shit. What? I was so damaged that I couldn’t even recognize a genuine apology. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [13:10] There is a very big thing going on that I am struggling with. I don’t like when people create a fear and then present themselves as the savior who can protect you from said fear. That is a very dangerous form of gaslighting. There have been movies made about groups of people who are convinced that the outside world is dangerous to them. Look at David Koresh and the cult that he created in Waco, where he convinced those people that the government, the police, the world, outside governments, regular people were going to try to steal their children and take their guns and their dresses and their livelihood and everything would be terrible. And he took the weakest-minded people, and he gaslit them into such a frenzy that they started to believe the world was coming in on them to such a degree that they killed their own children before killing themselves. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [14:32] They weren’t crazy. They were gaslit. And people always say, how could that happen? Because when you introduce a fear and you get people to believe there is something to be afraid of and then you say you are the safety, you are the one that will keep them safe, you are gaslighting them. If I introduce you to Knox and I hold him back and I say he’s so vicious, he’s gonna bite you. Be careful. Move back. Move back. What are you gonna do? Move back. I’ve now created a fear for you, even if this dog has never bitten anyone. And then if I say, you know what, watch. Knox sit, stay. And I look at you and go, I got you. Don’t worry. Now I’m the savior, right? I’m the protector. I’ve convinced you there’s a fear and I’ve stepped in to appease that fear, ease that fear. I’ve said a lot and I need a drink and I need to, like, gain my thought because I get so, like — gaslighting for me is a big one. It almost killed me. It’s also how I found God. But it did almost kill me. It was the first time in my life I thought about killing myself. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [16:10] So let’s get into some questions, because I feel like I have talked a lot. A lot of you wrote in with stories of a narcissist in your life gaslighting you. So I want to start off with a question from Roseanne who asks, “Is gaslighting similar to narcissism? What is the difference or how do they relate?” So that’s an interesting question. I’ve done a lot of research on narcissists because my boyfriend happened to be a narcissist who also used gaslighting as a mental cripple. I don’t believe that everybody who gaslights is a narcissist, but they do tend to go hand in hand. There’s a psychologist named Steven Johnson who explains that a narcissist is someone who has buried his true self-expression in response to early injuries and replaced it with a highly developed, compensatory false self. This alternate persona often comes across as grandiose, above others, self-absorbed and highly conceited. Gaslighting is a form of persistent manipulation and dangerous, taxing brainwashing that causes victims to doubt him or herself and to ultimately lose their own sense of perception. Identity goes out the window. Self-worth, oh, don’t even talk to me about what it does to your self-worth. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [17:32] And I think they go a lot of times hand in hand. Because gaslighters’ statements and accusations and twists and turns are often based on deliberate falsehoods and calculated marginalization. All of it comes from a 1944 film called Gaslight about a husband who tries to convince his wife that she’s crazy so he could have her committed and then go off and be with the woman he wanted to be with. And it worked. Gaslighting is real. Narcissism is different than people who use gaslighting, but there is so much overlap. Both people who gaslight and narcissists frequently lie and exaggerate. And it’s like lies that they present as fact. And they say it in a way that makes you look crazy if you don’t believe it. And oftentimes with narcissists, they’re so charismatic that they’ve created a fear that they are saving you from. So you want to believe their lies. Does that make sense? Lots of exaggerations. People who use gaslighting as a method to manipulate and also narcissists have a very hard time admitting their flaws. And if you criticize them, they get very defensive, very nasty, nasty name calling, belittling, making fun of. So when you say anything to them, like, hey, you could have handled this better or you should have said this to me, oh, if you think you could do a better job or I have the best people — everything is a war. Everything is a fight. And they don’t care how low they go. That’s when, you know, he used to do that to me, no matter what I said to him. He would always remind me that there were other women who would take my spot in a minute. He would tell me that he didn’t like me talking to a certain man for too long. And then I would say it was because he was jealous and then I would be like it’s not that he likes me. He just was standing at a bar, you know. And then he would say, of course, he doesn’t like you. That never even crossed my mind. Oh, my God. You think you’re so special, Jaime. You think every guy likes you. Then I start defending that instead of addressing the original thing. Do you see how that happens? So now I’m deflected. My eyes have been diverted. Wait, what do you say? I never said that. Everybody likes me. When did I ever say that? Oh, whatever you think, everybody.

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [20:50] And then you’re you’re in a war about something you didn’t even start. They are the kings of that. And queens. Let me move on to the next question. The next question says, “when gaslighting happens in the workplace. What do we do?” Because with relationships, you have the ability or choice to walk away. It might not be easy, but at least you can do it. Carolina says, “My boss has done this several times when I brought up issues. I’m sorry you think, I’m sorry you feel. What do you do when it’s your superior? Can you talk back to gaslighting? How do you know if they’re gaslighting you?” OK. So I will give you a scenario. I worked with somebody one time and we worked on a project together. And when it came time for him to do an interview about the project, he spoke about it like it was his idea and his project. My name wasn’t mentioned in the interview one time, and it was my whole idea. It was my whole thing. I’m not saying he wasn’t a valuable part of the team. I’m not saying he didn’t move the ball down the field. I’m not saying I didn’t need him. I’m saying it was my idea. It literally was my idea. OK. So when the interview came out, I approached him and I said, hey, this feels really weird. You did an interview about a project that we did together and it was my idea and my name is not mentioned anywhere. And he said, I can’t control what journalists write. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [22:31] Now, that is a gaslighting response, right? It’s a diversion. It doesn’t address your actual issue, which is why did you not include me in the interview when they approached you? You should have called me right away and said, we’re going to do this. And if you don’t want to do that, at the very least, you make sure to say whose idea it was. But they don’t do that. So when he said, I can’t control what journalists write, I acknowledged that and said, no, you can’t. Let me go back to my point. My point was this is was my idea and a project we did together. And you did an interview about it and left me out of the narrative. To which his response was in the future, I’ll be more mindful that you want to be included in every narrative. Now it looks like I’m greedy. I need to be included in every narrative. And then I said every narrative that I have participated in, yes, I do want to be included in every narrative. But it’s let me go back to my point, which was you did an interview about our project and left me out of it. I heard you. You made your point. Hmm. My point was not to be heard. My point was to understand because the I heard boom means they want it to end. And I’m sorry, but we’re not ending this because you’re uncomfortable, because you can’t gaslight me.

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [24:06] So when it is your job, you can absolutely talk back to gaslighting. And your responsibility is to not address the diversion, but to go back to the question. Why do we have so many deaths from COVID? Well, if you look at countries like England — that’s great, let me go back to my point, professor so-and-so, Dr. so-and-so, press secretary so-and-so, whoever. Why do we have so many deaths from COVID? I’m trying to answer your question. If you look at countries like England or Sweden right now — that actually has nothing to do with my question. So any time someone diverts, that is a form of gaslighting. They want to control the narrative and they want you to make you think you’re crazy. Then they say you’re being combative and I’m not answering your question. Well, you’re actually not being combative. They just don’t want to answer your question and you’re not allowing yourself to be gaslit. So at work, you have to continue to bring it back to the point you are trying to make and you will know if they are gaslighting you if when you bring it directly back to the question, point, situation, problem, whatever, if they continuously try to divert and then get aggressive or dismissive or shut down. I’m not answering your question. I don’t have to answer your question. That is gaslighting. You are being gaslit. If you bring it back and say, how come Ralph makes more money than me? And they say, well, if you look at companies like AT&T and MCI WorldCom and you go, nope, I’m not asking about those companies. I’m asking you about Sprint, where we work. How come, Ralph — we do the same job, how come he makes more money than me? Well, if you look at how much at AT&T, how much they pay there — no, talking about Sprint. If you continually bring it back and they keep going to a divert to your being. If they say, OK, you’re right. That’s right. I was trying to make a point, but let me see if I can answer it directly, we base our pay scale on other companies in our industry. So what we do is — now you’re getting a fucking answer. You’re not getting a diversion. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [26:32] Just dismissing me. No, I don’t want to fucking look at AT&T. I want you to tell me why I’m getting paid less than Ralph at Sprint, because that’s where I work. That’s my question. Drives me crazy. Gaslighting drives me nuts. All right. We have a really great last question. Our last question comes from an email we received. “Two years ago, my world was decimated with the revelation of my husband’s sex addiction. We were married for 16 years, and happily, as far as I knew. Unbeknownst to me, he was addicted to porn, masturbation and had numerous affairs with coworkers, many of whom I knew. I never suspected a thing. Not because I’m oblivious or stupid, but because I was gaslit. I knew for years something was amiss. Just couldn’t put my finger on it. Every few months I would be in tears asking him what was wrong. And he would always say, What do you mean there’s a problem? Everything’s fine to me. He gaslit me by saying that. So I would take the blame upon myself for whatever the problem was with our sex life. I didn’t know which way was up. Gaslighting is cruel and it’s abuse and it’s different from plain old lying in that it causes you to doubt yourself and lose your ability to trust your gut. Once we lose the connection to ourselves, it can become hopeless.” OK, well, first of all, before I get to your questions, let me say that again. Gaslighting is cruel. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [28:17] And it is abuse. It is different from plain old lying in that it causes you to doubt yourself and lose your ability to trust your gut. Once we lose the connection to ourselves, it can become hopeless. I want you guys to understand that I was gaslit so bad into believing no one would ever want me. I had to shrink myself. I had to be skinnier, smaller, less vocal, less creative, less talented, less smart, less attractive. I had to be as less and little and small as possible in order to just survive with this man that I sat on that bathroom floor and I wanted my life to be over so bad. It was the first time in my life that I really believed, and I mean believed, I would be better off dead. And it’s in that day — for those of you who’ve been following me and know and those of you that are new — it’s that day that I heard God’s “or” and that “or” was or you can you can see me. You can choose me. You can let me help you. You can turn to me. You can lean on me. You can let me save you. And I resisted on that bathroom floor. No, God, no. I don’t believe in you. I was raised Jewish. This isn’t a thing. I don’t believe in Jesus. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [29:34] And every time I wanted to die, he kept saying it doesn’t have to be this way. There’s another way. I mean, I was in that bathroom so long. And then I stood up and looked in the mirror and said, OK, if you’re going to fight this hard for me, I’ll give you a chance. And he has never left my side. I don’t understand why he does everything he does. I never will. It’s not my job. But he saved me that day. And it’s the only thing that saved me. I believe from that situation because I don’t think I ever, ever, ever would have gotten out. I would have died. I was so disconnected from who I ever really was or who I was created to be. I had been gaslight into this angry, small, depressed, tiny woman who was horrible. So her question asks, “how can you regain trust in yourself after you’ve been gaslit for so long?” And the key to getting away from gaslighting is to figure out if it’s even happening. So how do you do that? Well, I think you know that you’ve been gaslit because he’s been using manipulation. Well, first of all, he’s not trustworthy. So take a step back. Take your emotion out of it. And let’s look at facts. OK? Because facts are still facts. No matter how people try to manipulate them, facts are still facts. If you can’t trust yourself, trust the facts. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [31:12] The facts are that this man was lying to you. He was hiding things from you. He was sneaking behind your back. He is not trustworthy. OK. These are facts. So when you look at how do you trust yourself? Look at the facts. You’ve done it all right. And he’s done it all wrong. That is a fact. Sure, he may have some good qualities, but that’s not what we’re talking about right now. He has been manipulating you to be able to continue whatever behavior he wanted to continue. And I think that your question of how can you get away from a gaslighter is interesting because, let’s be honest, breaking up with anybody is never easy. But I think one of the hardest things to do is break up with someone who’s been gaslighting you because they’ve been using lies and deception for so long to make you doubt reality and they have all this power over you. The truth is they don’t even really like us or want to be with us. They just want to continue in the relationship on their terms. My guess is this man you’re married to doesn’t even really still want to be married to you. He just doesn’t want you to end it. I would fucking end it. Fuck him. And fuck is bullshit.

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [32:31] Put that fucking light out real quick, because when you face a gaslighter with break up, they turn to their old ways: deceit, they distort reality, they get defensive. And I have found that they will try to alternate your reality after you break up with them, they will remind you that no one will ever want to be with you. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here is my advice to you, and this will be the last thing I say on gaslighting, so I hope you guys are listening because these are the notes I took and these are the only things I have to offer. Break up in one quick conversation. So don’t fucking say it until you’re ready. Have a plan on how to get out. Or ask them to leave. But do not say it until you are ready to mean it. Break up in one conversation. Tell them the relationship isn’t working and it is over for you. Say it straightforward, say it calm and say it direct. Also, it does not hurt to have someone with you when you do it. Gaslighters tend to not react as strongly when there is someone else in the room because they want to be able to deny that they ever treated you that way. If there’s someone else there, it’s hard to deny it. Don’t believe promises to change.

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [33:56] As soon as you say you’re done, the person that you’re with is going to promise to change. They’re going to apologize. They’re going to say things are different. They’ll be different. The words will sound sincere and part of you will want to believe them, but don’t. It’s all part of the manipulation. It’s part of the gaslighting. And if you do cave in, the unhealthy dynamics in that relationship will continue and in my opinion, get worse. When you leave, when you end it and all communication. Do not check on them on social media. Unfriend them, block them. Do not continue to communicate. If you have children with them, then you get a mediator who has to mediate conversation about the kids, you know, get a custody agreement and do not allow them to have access to you. You’ve got to take it seriously. Gaslighters are serious. Do not end up like me. I am telling you, it is very, very hard to get out of relationships with a gaslighter. It is very, very hard to admit when you’ve been gaslit. It is not easy to say I loved this person and I was so wrong about them.

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [35:08] I worked for this person and I was so wrong about them. I was friends with this person and I was so wrong about them. I voted for this person and I was so wrong with them. Whatever it is, it is so hard to admit you were wrong because being wrong is a perceived weakness. It’s not. Identifying that you need to move on from a emotional tethering to someone because they are manipulating you is the bravest thing you can do. And getting away from a gaslighter or a narcissist will be one of the hardest things you ever have to do in your life. And to anyone who’s listening to this right now, who’s crying because they know exactly what the fuck I’m talking about, I love you so much. I know how hard it is. I know exactly what you’re going through. I swear to you, it gets better. I promise you, you will love again. The sun will shine again. You will find a new job. You will make new friends. I promise you that no matter how much you’ve invested, the bravest thing you can do is say, I was so wrong about this person and I have got to get away from them and enlist the people that you trust and love to help you do it. That’s the best advice I can give you. But every day that you waste letting them control you or remaining emotionally tethered to them is a day in this life you never get back. And by the way, lean on God. I’m telling you, he will carry you when you cannot walk, when you cannot move. You’ve got to say to him, like, I can’t do this. I need you to help me. I need your strength. Seriously, give me a sign. I need something. Maybe this podcast is your sign. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [36:53] If you’ve been praying for a sign, this is it. Don’t wait. Don’t don’t tell the canoe to go. Don’t tell the helicopter to go while the floodwaters are rising because you’re waiting on God. Don’t tell the lifeboat to go because you’re waiting on a miracle. This is your lifeboat. This is your helicopter. Don’t drown and get to heaven and say to God. Why didn’t you save me? I was waiting for a sign. Bro, I sent a fucking lifeboat and a helicopter. This is it. That is all I have for you guys today. I love you very much. This topic makes me very uncomfortable. It’s so close to home for me. It’s incredibly triggering for me. It makes me irate and feel sick. It reminds me how small I let myself become at the words and actions of another human being. I am painfully aware when gaslighting is happening. I hate when I see it. It’s very triggering for me. I can’t even watch the news because I’m just like this whole country’s gone to hell in a handbasket. You know, my own mother. It’s a lot. And gaslighting is emotional abuse. Make no mistake about it. Don’t take away my inner voice, because what am I without Jaime? I was nothing. I was a shell of a person. It is horrible to do to someone else. And if it could happen to me, it could happen to anybody. All right. I love you guys so much. Stay safe. Stay healthy and wash your hands. 

Jaime Primak Sullivan: [38:59] Tell Me What To Do is a production of Lemonada Media. The show is produced by Kryssy Pease, and associate produced by Claire Jones. It’s edited by Ivan Kuraev. Music is by Dan Molad. Jessica Cordova Kramer, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jaime Primak Sullivan are executive producers. Rate and review us, and follow us @LemonadaMedia on all your favorite social platforms. Of course, you can follow me at Jaime Primak Sullivan on Facebook or at Jaime P. Sullivan on Instagram. If you have any questions for me that you want me to answer on the show, give me a call at 833-453-6662.