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Who is the better filmmaker: Spike Lee or Tyler Perry? Jonquilyn Hill, the host of Explain It to Me, is Team Spike while Nichole Hill, the host of The Secret Adventures of Black People, is Team Tyler. And the neutral arbiter – until the end – is Ronald Young Jr. Jonquilyn argues that Spike Lee is a true artist who has made biopics, documentaries, music videos, and TV shows. Nichole says that Tyler Perry is an entertainer who makes films that are more broadly accessible. Which side will Ronald ultimately join this week?

Follow Nichole @nicholewthanh on Instagram and @nichill732 on Twitter and Jonquilyn @jonquilynhill on Instagram and Twitter.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Ronald young Jr., Jacqueline Hill, Nicole Hill

Ronald young Jr.  00:00

Oscar Micheaux, there’s a name you may or may not have heard of. Born in 1884 He’s regarded as the first major black filmmaker. He was the director and independent producer of more than 44 films. Since Michaud died in 1951 there have been many more Black Filmmakers like Gina, Prince bythewood, Cassie Lemons, Melvin van Peebles, Ava DuVernay, Ryan Coogler and John Singleton. But there are two Black Filmmakers whose movies tend to be the subject of much discussion, especially within the black community. They’re considered to be household names, and one of them is a billionaire off the back of his creative works, I’m speaking, of course, about Spike Lee and Tyler Perry, both have been polarizing figures. Both have classic films. Spike Lee and his groundbreaking 1992 biopic Malcolm X, starring Denzel Washington, is still considered by some to be the best biopic ever made. Tyler Perry in his repeated attempts to capture the essence of Black Lives and extract the important lessons he thinks we can learn from them with works like Diary of a mad black woman and I can do bad all by myself, but head to head, in the shadow of Oscar micheaux, which of these filmmakers reign supreme, Spike Lee or Tyler Perry, we make that decision once and for all, right here and right now on pop culture Debate Club. I’m Ronald Young Jr.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:36

So let’s meet our panelists for the day, representing Tyler Perry. Our guest is a writer and showrunner of Tracy Ellis Ross’s podcast, I am America. She’s also the host of the award winning podcast the secret Adventures of Black People and my dear friend. Nicole Hill.

 

Nicole Hill  01:50

Hello, everyone. Hello, Ronald.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:52

Hello, glad to have you very excited also joining us repping Spike Lee is audio producer and host of the popular Vox media podcast, Explain it To Me. Let’s welcome another dear friend. Jacqueline Hill.

 

Jacqueline Hill  02:07

Hello, hi also, Nicole and I are not cousins that we know of and we don’t.

 

Nicole Hill  02:13

Then that’s important to say at the top, same last name, different.

 

Jacqueline Hill  02:17

Yeah, and I’m not giving my DNA to a company, so we’ll never find out, never.

 

Nicole Hill  02:22

And I’m the same way. I did try to talk my brother and sister into doing it, but they were like.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:27

Let me ask. So both of you have been guests on my other podcast, leaving the theater, so I know you both love movies, and we have a lot of discussions. We’ve agreed, we’ve disagreed. Let me ask you first, Nicole, how would you say, what is your argument style?

 

Nicole Hill  02:43

My argument style, you know, I think it’s very kind of calm, accommodating. I don’t necessarily want to tear down the other side. Let’s say, for example, in this case, because Spike Lee is a genius and a master, and such a credit to Art and Film. But you know, I do like to make some points. I like to ask questions, get us to consider some other sides of things that we maybe did not consider.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:08

Nice and Jacqueline, would you say you’re here to tear down Tyler Perry?

 

Jacqueline Hill  03:14

Okay, what I will say is I am not here to tear down Tyler Perry, in part because there are a lot of people not on this podcast who I feel like are already doing that job for me. My it’s interesting. The relationship, my relationship with Tyler Perry, swings backward and forwards, because sometimes I’m like, oh, the black experience, the Chitlin Circuit, and then other times I’m like, Wait, why don’t you have union writers? Um, so I go, I go back and forth with, with Mr. Perry, quite a bit.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:52

I love it. I love the subtle jabs already thrown.

 

Jacqueline Hill  03:58

Shout out to WGA, gang.

 

Ronald young Jr.  04:04

Are y’all ready to fight?

 

Jacqueline Hill  04:06

Oh, absolutely. Let’s throw some bows. We knocking and ready.

 

Ronald young Jr.  04:13

Okay? Jacqueline, we’ll start with you opening argument. Spike Lee over Tyler Perry.

 

Jacqueline Hill  04:20

There would be no Tyler Perry without Spike Lee, he is just a major piece of the black cinema landscape from she’s got to have it on even as recently as black Klansmen, also, He has gone beyond genre. Unlike Mr. Perry, you know, he’s done musicals, he’s done dramas, he’s done bio pics, he’s done documentaries, he’s done music videos. What has Tyler Perry done, other than give us terrible wigs?

 

Ronald young Jr.  04:58

Okay, oh so with the heat has gone up a little nick. I hope you are aware of the type of fight that we are in at this point.

 

Nicole Hill  05:10

No, not at all. No, everything’s fine.

 

Ronald young Jr.  05:14

Tell me your opening argument. Tyler Perry over Spike Lee.

 

Nicole Hill  05:20

Tyler Perry is not an artist. I want to open with that. Tyler Perry is an entertainer. Are you not entertained? This is what he’s doing. He is specifically leaning into the thrill of a live crowd, watching a bunch of people act wild on stage. He is telling one story, one story only, over and over and over and over again. It is hilarious. It is heightened. It’s not really meant to be necessarily real life, but it is meant to reflect the experiences of a large segment of the black population whose experiences up until now we would want to distance ourselves from because we’re trying to get people to see us in a different way, but they’re still valid. And I think that if we can make space for the storytelling of Meg and cardi and glow, I think we have to make space for the storytelling of Tyler. These are experiences that maybe they seem stereotypical, maybe they seem like they’re not representing our excellence however they are, if you look at it and tilt your head in a different in a different way.

 

Jacqueline Hill  06:26

I love having space for Meg and cardi and glow. But if they were protagonists in Tyler Perry films, they would be getting dogged out by a dark skinned black man, and then would be told, Hey, sister, your standards are too high. And then they would date a light skinned man who drives a forklift. And there’s nothing wrong with being light skinned or driving forklifts, but it’s a story he has told us over and over and over again.

 

Nicole Hill  06:59

Those women would also have incredible solos, incredible moments where they would go to the front of that church. Now in a Tyler Perry film, in the end, yes, she is going to be the wife of a light skinned man, but you could cut it off before then, up until his third act, we are all very entertained. And I do think that that is important. It’s escapist. It matters. He is telling the same story over and over again. But what if we stopped at Act Two?

 

Jacqueline Hill  07:26

What I will say about Spike Lee films for better and for worse, you’re going to want to sit and watch all of them through. There is a beginning, a middle and an end, and they are all different. Another thing that I will give Spike Lee that I will not give Tyler Perry, and this is saying a lot, because I am saying this about Spike Lee, he’s less divisive than Tyler Perry, you know, if you are in a room, if it’s a Saturday, if you have a party going on, it does not matter who you are. You can put on school days, and no one will complain. If you put on boo, a Medea Halloween, someone is likely to have something to say. We can all gather around Spike Lee in ways that we can’t with Tyler Perry.

 

Nicole Hill  08:11

Okay, counterpoint, we can all gather around Tyler Perry to drag him and then to have conversations. I feel that, his movies spark conversation around the kitchen table, but I don’t know that other movies do, because they’re so accessible. The themes of it, regardless of your age, you’re gonna understand basically what’s going on, because all of these hitting, all his themes on the head really loud. It is too much. It’s over the top, but we all get it. We’ve all got an entry point, and we don’t need anything explained to us. And then we can start talking about, should we be talking about ourselves this way? Should we not? What is this issue with dark skinned black men? What do we want to see in our dark skinned black men? He’s also employed a lot of dark skinned black men. It’s true. So I do think that he sparks good conversation. May I don’t know if that is his intent, but he is encouraging us to discuss black art in an accessible way with everybody.

 

Ronald young Jr.  09:09

So we’re talking a little bit about colorism, and especially colorism between these two directors. Now we know that Spike Lee is not unproblematic in his racial choices in some of his films, although we’ve known him to be very pro black for a lot of it, but colorism seems to be a theme that comes up that’s one. But the other theme that I’m hearing a lot of is bouginess and the understanding between artist and entertainer and what it means to entertain the masses. Jacqueline, let me ask you, is it more important to make work that is entertaining to black folks, because both of these artists have pointed their work primarily at black folks for a while. I would say Spike Lee probably less so as he’s continued his career and considers himself to be competing with the Martin Scorsese’s and them of the world. However, is it more important to make something that is entertaining and palatable to black people, or should there be work that’s pushing black folks forward?

 

Jacqueline Hill  10:02

Yeah, the thing is, I think you can do both, and I think he does both. He’s both entertaining and thought provoking. I mean, people love Malcolm X and tag yourself. I am people. You know, it’s a very entertaining film. It’s good. He should have gotten the Oscar for it when he won the Oscar. It’s true for riding black Klansmen, that was actually his Oscar for Best Director for Malcolm X. So, you know, you can entertain and you can be thought provoking. And you know, I’ma be real with my guy. He’s had a few women’s there too. We know about Chirac The thing is like, listen, and then the day, we’re talking about two black men. So when it comes to talking about women and when it comes to talking about colorism, there are points that will be made. But what I appreciate about Spike Lee versus Tyler Perry is that you can see change. There’s always something different. You know, there’s artistry, but being entertained at the same time, like, yeah, okay, now do the right thing is considered like this bougie movie. But at the time, well, I wasn’t alive, but from what I’ve read at the time, it was a game changer. It was like, wait a black Director, why are we talking about sneakers? Ooh, what are these camera shots? What’s going on? And so I think Spike Lee is able to do both of those things at the same time.

 

Nicole Hill  11:30

This is really hard, because I love Spike Lee. I really do. I the thing that I always wrestle with, though, is the accessibility of his storytelling and making sure that if you did not necessarily go to college, if you do not appreciate and I don’t think you need to have gone to college to understand the camera angles and the storytelling that he’s doing, his style of storytelling, but I think that to maybe feel connected with all of the characters that he’s bringing into His stories, you need to have a certain class experience. It starts to feel like, as he continues on in his career, there’s something, something happening here that is feeling further and further away from the people that I watched, that the the Tyler Perry videos with I was raised by a bunch of people who who did not go to college, and so for them, I think Black Klansmen was, which I think is a beautiful and amazing film. I had so much fun at Black Klansmen, but or even the five Bloods, I feel like.

 

Ronald young Jr.  12:28

I think you mean duh, five Bloods?

 

Nicole Hill  12:30

Oh, no, I said duh, but I didn’t do a duh?

 

Ronald young Jr.  12:37

Would you say I didn’t do a Duff […] rules?

 

Nicole Hill  12:44

I think that’s too over pronounced. I think we’re getting to Tyler Perry territory.

 

Jacqueline Hill  12:52

I think there is a discussion to be had about elitism and elitism among Black Filmmakers in general, and also, just like kind of the way that black people with a certain amount of education talk about black people without that same education. That being said, I think Spike Lee is being more authentic to his true self with that. I mean, Tyler Perry, isn’t he a billionaire? He’s very rich.

 

Ronald young Jr.  13:16

1.3 billion.

 

Jacqueline Hill  13:17

And yet here we are making these movies. And also, you know.

 

Ronald young Jr.  13:22

Spike Lee isn’t broke. Jacqueline, no, he is not broke $60 million.

 

Jacqueline Hill  13:26

He is not bro, listen, like Spike Lee does not need me to write him a check. It’s the other way around. That being said. You know, Tyler Perry is like, hoity toity, black bougie folks. And it’s like, sir, that’s you again, in part because he is writing these films very quickly, often by himself and or with writers who are not union. And this is another thing with me about Tyler Perry. If I were him, I would just be producing. There are so many black filmmakers and artists I would take under my wing, I would just be throwing money. I would have given, like, Issa Rae, here’s a bag of money. Other Black Filmmakers, here’s a bag of money. But yet he’s like, no, this is me. I’m doing it to me. We’re not seeing enough Tyler Perry credits where he’s just the producer.

 

Ronald young Jr.  14:17

Yeah, Nic, why is that the case? Because I feel like, when you think about that’s actually my biggest problem with Will Smith. And I actually love Will Smith, to be clear. But there was a time period in Will Smith’s life where if he was not the leading man, then it was not going to be in the movie. And I really was yearning for that movie where Will Smith is a supporting actor who’s adding lending his gravitas to something else, instead of having to be the one in front. Because I felt like that would have blossomed his career in a way that might have gotten him to the Oscars sooner. And I feel like Tyler Perry, if he’s a man that wants to get respect of the community, which in some ways he has, because he is the one stop shop in Atlanta, Nic when it comes to him, I do wonder about that question. To say, like, who is coming out of the Tyler Perry camp? Next. And I guess I could also ask that question about Spike Lee, but Tyler Perry has a lot more money and influence right now, so I would ask, What gives? What should he be doing? Why isn’t he doing that?

 

Nicole Hill  15:11

You would wish that he was succession planning. But I think that Tyler Perry, in his mind, still thinks of himself as like entry level on the ground. I am the artist, and I’m going to write the plays. My view is the best view. He’s got a work style that is toxic and unsustainable to anybody else around which I’m sure is why he is subverting WGA rules to do it himself or to bring on non union workers. But I think that he needs a mindset shift to see himself as as the cultivator of a pipeline of talent, like for me, for example, I am producing a show. I feel like I need to be writing it, and I need to be cutting it, and I need to weigh in on all the sound design, because I’m still at a stage where it’s, it’s my baby, and it’s coming out of my mind, and I need to have all hands on it. I think that he’s still there. Like, Issa could come in so quickly and see herself as like, I can take a step back. I can trust that I put all these people in positions and they’ll get it done. He is absolutely not there. We could talk about trauma, we could talk about whatever, but this money has not helped him to see himself as very different from the man who, like, came to Atlanta with no money and was putting on these plays and living in his car. That’s what I think so, and it’s a problem.

 

Ronald young Jr.  16:24

Okay, so that’s the point against Tyler Perry Jacqueline response.

 

Jacqueline Hill  16:30

Okay, all right, to be real in preparation for this, because one of my things about Tyler Perry is like, where’s, where are the mentees? And I will say Spike Lee not also does not have, like, a long list of prominent mentees. Like, you know, you don’t necessarily hear about him, and like, Ryan Coogler, granted, Ryan Coogler, maybe he don’t mean nobody. He is where nobody.

 

Ronald young Jr.  16:52

But Jacqueline, who are the Spike Lee mentees. Do, you know?

 

Jacqueline Hill  16:56

That’s the thing. Like, no major names, and he’s done some, you know, prominent corporate things like there’s this project he did with Rolex, and Rolex worked with some other people too, working on these mentorship programs. So there are these high profile things like that, but yeah.

 

Ronald young Jr.  17:13

We’ll be back with more pop culture Debate Club after this break.

 

Ronald young Jr.  17:32

Let’s like shift gears a bit, and let’s talk a little bit about their acting so ultimate harmony. Not doing harmonizing. So we have Tyler Perry, who Tyler Perry, I would say, has probably been the more prolific actor of the two, whereas Spike Lee uses his acting and his character as more as inserting himself almost like a signature in a movie like M Night, Shyamalan or Hitchcock, he’s just kind of like putting himself as seasoning in the movie. Who do you think like in terms of their acting career? Who’s winning here?

 

Jacqueline Hill  18:13

What do you mean by winning? I think.

 

Nicole Hill  18:17

I think that’s I think that’s fair. I don’t even know what to say.

 

Ronald young Jr.  18:21

Who has the bigger impact as an actor?

 

Jacqueline Hill  18:24

What I will say in the Spike Lee camp, for instance, she’s got to have it his breakout movie. He plays Mars. Blackman. Mars was so prolific that that character ended up in commercials with Michael Jordan. Like that says something. You know, I have not seen Medea in Converse commercials.

 

Nicole Hill  18:46

But you seen her everywhere, though you have seen her everywhere, but, like.

 

Jacqueline Hill  18:49

I see her everywhere in a Tyler Perry projection. I’ve never been like, watching TV and, like, there’s a craft mac and cheese commercial. Well, I’m trying to think of what Madea would sell me a gun, yeah, she’s not doing black commercials.

 

Ronald young Jr.  19:03

I think you’ve nailed it up, or purses and guns.

 

Jacqueline Hill  19:07

Guns, and I think that really says something broth.

 

Ronald young Jr.  19:10

Or not, yeah.

 

Jacqueline Hill  19:14

But then also, um, Spike Lee Mookie and do the right thing. That was a major role. He set that whole thing off throwing trash cans. Talk about Nook and Bucha and ready to fight. I mean, that was a that was a major role. So as far as who has done it more, I will give it to Mr. Perry. But as far as who is more artful with it. I will give it to spike. Lee, oh, I saw a tweet recently that reminded me of the Tyler Perry Gabrielle Union sex scene in good deeds. And I was like, wow.

 

Nicole Hill  19:51

When he’s outside of that dress and he’s doing the Tyler Perry, like, what’s the one he was in with the tan? I was like, okay, Tyler. He was like action detective.

 

Ronald young Jr.  20:01

Oh, that’s a long that’s what he took over for Denzel, which was a mistake, and Morgan free move was still a mistake. It was. He was Alex Cross in cross, if I’m not mistaken, yeah.

 

Nicole Hill  20:10

That’s what it was, and it’s not bad. Don’t look up. Yeah, with the Leonardo DiCaprio, Jennifer Lawrence, gone. Girl Gone. Girl, like it’s not he can play a detective fairly well, actually. Thank you so much for bringing that up, because I forgot about his non Madea roles.

 

Jacqueline Hill  20:24

It’s hard to look at him and forget he’s Tyler Perry, like he invites that Dick Cheney movie. He played Colin Powell, and the whole time I was like, but that’s Tyler Perry.

 

Nicole Hill  20:34

That’s Tyler Perry, yeah, this is the danger of your face. Is the brand of everything, because it is hard to like disappear into a character. But when he does disappear into a character, I will say, I think that he does it a little more smooth.

 

Ronald young Jr.  20:50

So when we talk about the two of these folks up against each other, there has been some friction between the two in the past. There is Lee previously called Perry’s work buffoonery, and said that while the median franchise has made a lot of money and broke records, quote, we could do better. In response to the criticism in 2011 Perry told The Wall Street Journal, quote, I’m so he’s sick of hearing about damn spike. Lee spike can go straight to hell. You can print that the two have since mended things with Tyler Perry naming one of the sound stages at his studios after Spike. Spike also appeared at the grand opening of Tyler Perry studios and called Perry’s career trajectory the American dream. My question for you, Nicole, do you think there’s some validity to spikes specific critique of Tyler’s work.

 

Nicole Hill  21:39

He is definitely playing on some stereotypes and heightening them to a buffoonish level. Absolutely. So that is fair. I think it’s also teetering on that line of respectability, of policing and elitism and bouginess, because what experiences are we allowed to heighten for entertainment and artistic value when it’s racism, we could take it all the way to the top, like Boys in the Hood that death See, like we could take it so far, if that’s what we want to do, if it’s racism, if it’s violence against us or women, if it’s something like that. But when it, when it’s these themes of more interpersonal drama, it does seem like there’s a certain level we want to go to and then we want to stop. So it’s, it is silly and cartoonish and over the top. But I think we should be careful about calling it like buffoonery per se.

 

Ronald young Jr.  22:41

Spike, we I mean, sorry, Spike Jacqueline.

 

Nicole Hill  22:46

That’s they call me Howard […]

 

Jacqueline Hill  22:52

[…] Call me spike.

 

Ronald young Jr.  22:56

Jacqueline. Spike has been pretty critical of other black artists in general, like he publicly spoke out against the color Purple’s portrayal of black men, and had a brief beef with Samuel L Jackson for choosing a role in the 1992 film White Sands over a role in Malcolm X. And honestly, we hear a lot from Spike Lee. He is typically yelling when we see him at Knicks games. He’s upset. He’s walking out at the Oscars, even though I agreed with him, but I’m still like spike, you’re doing this a lot. Is Spike Lee, a hater?

 

Jacqueline Hill  23:25

Okay? All right, you know what? Yes, but I will say I’m a hater too, and I love being a hater. Being a hater is great. Look at Kendrick Lamar. He’s living his best life, and he’s a hater. Is thriving. First of all, hater. You should know, I am pro hater. Be a hater today wake up, find something to hate on, like, I love hate, okay, well, I love it, but okay, I think bringing hateration to the dancery is really important. Every dancery needs adoration, and he’s good at bringing it honestly. It makes him more endearing also. And you know, this is the good thing about creatives. And I would consider all of us on this call creatives. Creatives can be, you know, a little prickly, they can be temperamental. They can act a little funny, and it’s, it’s just part of what comes with being an artist is being loud, having lots of opinions. But also, you know, he’s been in the game for so long that he’s kind of earned the right to be loud. And, you know, he came up in a time before social media. I can only imagine what his tweets would have been like, you know, at the time. Oh, my goodness, can you imagine? But, yeah, I would argue, yeah, he’s a hater, and that that’s a good thing. Be the hater you to see in the world.

 

Nicole Hill  25:02

I do think that have you need, especially if you are a black artist, you need a branding. It needs to be readily, easily recognizable. You need a reason to draw eyes on you and get attention and get in the headlines. People are not just going to do it because of your art. So I feel like having a little bit of life as art being a little over the top in some way, it’s gonna give people something to talk about, and you’ve got to draw eyes to your projects, because you’re not getting the same attention and press and people aren’t taking the same risks on you as they would on another artist who maybe is not black.

 

Ronald young Jr.  25:37

We’ll be back with more PCDC after this break.

 

Ronald young Jr.  25:55

Nic if you had to pick one piece of work that Tyler Perry had done to convince someone to like Tyler Perry, what would you pick?

 

Nicole Hill  26:05

I would say, you come over to my godmother’s house. We’re gonna go down to this basement.

 

Ronald young Jr.  26:11

Oh my god.

 

Nicole Hill  26:12

We’re gonna gather the church together, and we are gonna watch Diary of a Mad Black Woman together, and you are going to experience what it is to watch that movie in a room full of the audience it was intended for, which is a bunch of black church folks, and you will feel differently about him. I think if you experience it like that, I don’t think you could just be like, oh, this is nothing. You’ll it’s like electric to watch something like that in a room full of black people who it was made specifically for.

 

Ronald young Jr.  26:39

Okay, that’s fair. Jacqueline, the same question. If you had to pick one piece of Spike Lee’s work to win over a new Spike Lee fan, what are you picking? And you can you could set it up as an experience too, because that’s what Nic did, and fair is fair.

 

Jacqueline Hill  26:54

Oh, okay, well, if we’re doing the experience version, you need to come to Washington, DC in early August. Go to Howard University. Bring a blanket. Sit it out on the yard. You know, have some popcorn. Get you a little water bottle full of something. Grab a couple friends

 

Ronald young Jr.  27:15

Legal. Please help us.

 

Jacqueline Hill  27:18

Stop saying doing this for the adults. If you are going away.

 

Ronald young Jr.  27:21

Got you yes, thank you.

 

Jacqueline Hill  27:22

Set a blanket out and on Howard University’s campus, on the yard, there will be the annual screening of School Days, and you will have the time of your life, and you will leave a Spike Lee fan.

 

Ronald young Jr.  27:36

I love that. I love those choices, because a diary of a black, mad black woman, I still feel like that is classic Tyler Perry. And I feel like if he had progressed beyond that, I feel like there we’d be talking very different about him as an artist and Jocelyn. I also agree school days is another like classic Spike Lee joint. But speaking of classic Spike Lee joints, what has Spike Lee done that is worthy outside of the 90s. Are we just talking black Klansmen, or can you name others?

 

Jacqueline Hill  28:05

I would think, uh, the five bloods definitely is up there. And that was like Netflix. That was him getting in on the streaming. Um, also was when was um, inside man. Hold on, let me uh.

 

Ronald young Jr.  28:19

He didn’t write inside man, haha. He only directed.

 

Jacqueline Hill  28:22

But direct to.

 

Nicole Hill  28:23

The director who does it all.

 

Jacqueline Hill  28:27

Also, I will say he produced Love and Basketball in 2000. And so, you know where Netflix and chill would not exist if it were not for Spike Lee.

 

Ronald young Jr.  28:39

Wow, that’s, that’s a strong statement.

 

Nicole Hill  28:41

It would not exist? Okay.

 

Jacqueline Hill  28:46

Like that Maxwell song, that would that I did that note, and that meant something to y’all, that hits you.

 

Ronald young Jr.  28:52

It’s true. Uh, Nic, what is the future for Tyler Perry? Like, what are we what are we looking at in the next 10 to 20 years of Tyler Perry, are we still going to be talking about him as an entertainer, or will he be something more in the industry?

 

Nicole Hill  29:07

He owns the means of production. He is the he Spike Lee is right. It’s the American dream. He’s the ultimate capitalist. I think that at some point he has got to anoint somebody else to start writing, to start taking some of the reins. So what I hope to see in the future is Tyler Perry is the EP in the back, but somebody else is in the front. So yeah, I would like to see him EP ing and mentoring the next generation of black storytelling he has achieved in such an extraordinary way, those studios down in Atlanta. It’s unbelievable. It’s absolutely unbelievable what he has achieved. I do think because of the Medea character, we lose sight of him as the businessman and the extraordinary work he has done in film and television for or black storytelling, but I mean honestly, mainly himself and Tyler Perry studios. But I think in the future, if he’s doing what I hope he’s doing, he’s setting himself up to be able to put a lot of people in positions of power.

 

Ronald young Jr.  30:12

Jacqueline, what is the future for Spike Lee? What are we looking at is, are we going to get better Spike Lee joints, or are his best days behind him?

 

Jacqueline Hill  30:19

I don’t know that his best days are behind them. I can see him, you know, stepping more into that producer role, I think, in an ideal situation, maybe, um, start, like, a writing mentorship program with HBCU. Start at Morehouse. Bring it to Howard. Maybe like, especially like the ones that are like, a little more underfunded the HBCUs that like, don’t get as much shine. Bring some bring some young Black Filmmakers out to Hollywood, read over their scripts and, you know, give them your stamp of approval and see where they go.

 

Nicole Hill  30:51

Oh, okay, I have an idea I would love to add to that spike. Lee Tyler, y’all two get together. You create a fellowship for Black Storytellers who are wanting to work in film, TV, theater, everything, and you mentor them, you help them, you show them the way. It’s similar to project green light. That’s that Ben Affleck, Matt Damon, thing Issa Rae took it over. Chaos. That’s absolutely cannot recommend that season highly enough, absolute chaos. But the two of them doing something like that for a next generation of Black Storytellers. We will build statues in your honor all over fort. Greene, wherever you want them, New Orleans, whatever, do it.

 

Ronald young Jr.  31:30

This has been incredible. I love talking with y’all. I could talk about this all day, but let’s close it out. I want to know your closing arguments. And Nicole, this time, we’ll start with you. Tyler Perry over Spike Lee, closing argument.

 

Nicole Hill  31:44

Okay, closing argument. Listen the stories that endure over time, the ones we tell each other over and over again around campfires and high rise apartments, probably in the when we live on Mars, will be the fables, the stories that are a little silly, a little over the top, maybe feel too simplistic, but ultimately teach us a lesson about life. I think that Tyler Perry is a fableman. I think that he loves a good kind of this thing happened and that thing happened, and in the end, I learned that family really is everything and God and an amazing solo in front of the choir. And so I think that he I think that he will endure. I think that his stories, while problematic, will endure, because we love fables, and he is telling very simple fable style storytelling, and that is why it’s Tyler Perry over Spike Lee, all right.

 

Ronald young Jr.  32:39

I love it, Jacqueline Hill, give me your closing argument. Spike. Lee over, Tyler Perry.

 

Jacqueline Hill  32:45

As I said before, I don’t think there would be a Tyler Perry without a spike. Lee, you know, Spike is a very particular type of director. He’s an auteur and artist he belongs with the greats that being said. You know, in the past, we haven’t had a lot of black people reach up to that level. And you know, black people are film bros too, and we need somebody to tell those stories, to get artsy, to give us camera angles, to make us feel the sweat during a heat wave in a Brooklyn summer in the 80s, and Spike Lee does that. You know, he is able to tell so many different types of stories throughout time. He’s given us documentaries. He has given us, like I said before, music videos, television series on streaming, just a wide variety of things. And I think a lot of the current Black Filmmakers owe so much to Spike Lee, and that is why it is Spike Lee over, Tyler Perry.

 

Ronald young Jr.  33:58

Are y’all ready for my ruling?

 

Nicole Hill  34:00

Oh, gosh, oh, I forgot you do that. Okay? I was like, we’re both right, yay.

 

Jacqueline Hill  34:06

Men are problematic.

 

Nicole Hill  34:08

So problematic. Why aren’t we talking about women? That’s my question.

 

Jacqueline Hill  34:13

Where’s the Julie dash episode?

 

Nicole Hill  34:16

Hello.

 

Ronald young Jr.  34:16

When you come back, I promise we could argue. We could argue women, it’s funny, we talked about love at basketball and immediately thought about Gina Prince by foot. And was like, Yeah, that’s definitely a name that we could bring up later. But for today, we’re still talking about these two, two men, and I do have a ruling. You know, it’s interesting when I do this show admittedly, sometimes I have an idea of who I’m going to pick going in or who I feel more biased towards. But technically, every argument is supposed to start 111, with either of you being on one side and me being on the neutral side, and turning the argument into two. One with my vote. This is important to say because in I want y’all to know that today it was a true 111, I literally had no idea who I was going to. Pick going in, but listening to y’all talk and kind of go back and forth, I’ve kind of devised the ruling that I think kind of works. And I think the truth of the matter is, when I think about Tyler Perry, and I think about what he’s done, I am in awe, because he is worth $5.6 billion with the work that he’s done from the Chitlin Circuit, moving all the way up, owning all the means of productions, which is an incredible thing. And we would only be talking about that most of us. And when I say that, I’ll talk about educated, college educated black folks would be talking and in support of that, if not for the means of which he’s doing it, which is that a lot of his storytelling is very, very basic. It’s very much. I’m going to tell you this one dimensional story, and he’s selling it to the masses that will eat that up and ask for more every time, because they want to just keep watching that one story that he continues to churn out every time. I have a problem with that. I used to call it blacks in blackface. You’re basically making me watch this story. But black people are acting out the stereotypes that we’re actually trying to avoid, which I feel like is actively not good for black folks in a lot of ways. All of that being said, I don’t think Spike Lee escapes from this unscathed, because I think there were some ways in which he was also doing some of that early in his career, like in the 90s, a lot of the black folks that he were portraying, while they were they were good, there were still some elements of like, playing into a stereotype. There’s not a lot of nuance to these, to these characters. However, I’m well more captivated by his stories. There was a lot more layers that came in there. I believe the truth is in what Jacqueline said, which was, without Spike Lee, there would be no Tyler Perry. But another way of stating that is that Spike Lee walked so that Tyler Perry could run. So what we have here is kind of like the debate between Michael Jordan and LeBron James or if you’re throwing Kobe Bryant, or who are we talking about here? We talk about the person that established themselves as the black all tour, or are we talking about the person that kind of like looked at that refined the strategy and moved it forward? So to be honest, this will probably be the closest thing to a tie that I could probably see. However, I think just slightly, mostly because, again, if not for the storytelling. The story we’d be talking about is the celebration of Tyler Perry’s ability to do this and make $5.6 billion uh, with which would be an incredible feat for a black person to go from place to that status in Hollywood. That’s all we’d be talking about, if not for his storytelling style, which I don’t really like. So with all of that being said, I think it’s slight Nic, just a little bit I give Tyler Perry over Spike Lee.

 

Jacqueline Hill  37:52

It could have gone either […]

 

Nicole Hill  37:56

Where we go, what’s gonna be, wow. I accept this award on behalf of Tyler Perry, and to push him to go further in his storytelling and to hire some people to help him out.

 

Ronald young Jr.  38:10

I love it. Jacqueline, I you know, I’m sorry for your loss, but tell the good people where they can find you.

 

Jacqueline Hill  38:17

Yes, well, you can find my podcast, Explain it To Me wherever you get your podcast, give it a listen and send us a question in, and I will find out the answer and explain it to you. And then you can find me on all the social media places at Jacqueline Hill. My name is not the easiest spell, but read the show description. You know, it’ll be there.

 

Ronald young Jr.  38:44

It’ll be there, Nicole Hill, where can people find you?

 

Nicole Hill  38:46

So you can find me at the secret Adventures of Black People Podcast. You can find that wherever you get your podcasts. And starting in February of 2025, just in time for Black History Month, you will I’ll be releasing my new show. Our Ancestors Were Messy. All about the ancestors and the gossip and tea and drama that they got into. And you can find that wherever you get your podcasts.

 

Ronald young Jr.  39:09

I’m excited about that show. I believe Jacqueline Hill, you would be a guest on that show is that?

 

Jacqueline Hill  39:13

Oh, yes, we had ourselves a little blast. I drank. Oh, we had so much fun. I had a little uncle nearest, and got to listen to Messy, messy little stories. I

 

Ronald young Jr.  39:23

love it. Thank you both so much for being here. We can’t wait to have you back again.

 

Nicole Hill  39:28

Same, thank you. It was a pleasure, the joy Jacqueline, so much fun sparring with you.

 

Jacqueline Hill  39:31

Yes, this was so fun. And thanks, Ronald.

 

Ronald young Jr.  39:39

Thanks again to Jacqueline Hill and Nicole Hill.

 

CREDITS  39:42

There’s more Pop Culture Debate Club with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like Jacqueline and Nicole talking about their earliest experiences with Tyler Perry at Spike Lee films, subscribe now in Apple podcasts. Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Lemonada and the BBC.   It’s produced by Jamela Zarha Williams, Kryssy Pease,  Dani Matias and me, Ronald young Jr. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neel is VP of new content. Our Senior Vice President of weekly content  and production is Steve Nelson. Commissioning editor for the BBC is Rhian Roberts. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer.   Follow Pop Culture Debate Club, wherever you get your podcasts.