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Which card game is better: Uno or Spades? Comedian and podcast host Abe Gatling and comedian and writer Talib Babb square off in today’s debate. Abe touts Uno’s “unmatched inclusivity” as the main reason it’s the superior card game. Talib says what’s great about Spades is that if you have a deck of cards you can play it. Plus, he adds, the teamwork element builds character. Which game will Ronald Young Jr. choose to play at the next family cookout?

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

David Duchovny, Speaker 3, Speaker 1, Abe Gatling, Talib Babb, Ronald young Jr., Speaker 2

David Duchovny  00:36

It’s time for a family gathering. You show up to your parents’ house and your dad and uncle are already arguing over the best way to enjoy ribs, with or without sauce. Your auntie and mom are in the kitchen with a few of your cousins trying to figure out who made the potato salad. And your other aunties are debating over whether or not they like your uncle’s new wife. He started bringing around a few of your other cousins. Just got back from a walk, and they start setting up a table. It’s time to play some card games. Looks like you arrived right on time, but then an argument breaks out. Which game will we play? Uno or Spades? Spades is a card game played with a traditional card deck with hearts, diamonds, clubs and of course, spades, where you attempt to take tricks from each other in order to win. Uno is a game played with the specially printed deck where you attempt to get rid of all of your cards before your opponents, who are all simultaneously trying to do the same thing. This is a critical decision you have to make. You don’t want to ruin the barbecue. Which game is better? Is it uno or spades? We decide once and for all right here and right now on Pop Culture Debate Club.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:53

Welcome back to PCDC, I’m Ronald Young Jr. Let’s meet our panelists for the day. Representing spades is a stand up comedian, writer, actor and producer based in Brooklyn, New York, whose work can be found on Late Show with Stephen Colbert and ESPN. Hello and welcome, Talib Babb.

 

Talib Babb  02:09

Thank you for having me, Ronald, I appreciate it.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:11

I’m excited to have you. I’m excited to hear you defend spades.

 

Talib Babb  02:14

Oh, I’m ready.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:15

Also joining us, representing Uno is stand up comedian and host of the crybaby podcast, a show where black comedians are invited to discuss a time they’ve cried, tou ching on topics of black masculinity, childhood, parenting, vulnerability and more. Let’s welcome Abe Gatling.

 

Abe Gatling  02:32

Wow, an honor to be here next to ESPN and Colbert star Talib Babb.

 

Speaker 1  02:39

Oh man, I’m a liar. Don’t listen, to Ronald, federal’s lies.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:45

None of these credits are real. Yeah, nobody’s doing it’s barely the host of the show. With all that being said, are y’all ready to fight?

 

Talib Babb  02:55

Still hands.

 

Abe Gatling  02:56

Yeah.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:01

Abe, your energy. It’s tingling. Okay, let’s kick it off with opening arguments Talib. Present your case for why Spades is the superior card game.

 

Talib Babb  03:14

These are, this is very easy, very simple, and I’m gonna lay this out for the jury and the court to just really understand that spades is by far the superior card game. Reason one, if you have cards, you can play spades, and I’ll say that again, if you have cards, you can play spades. You don’t need to get another type of cards, another deck, to just go play some other game, like if you play poker, if you play blackjack, if you play Go Fish, if you play Tonk, I declare war even 52 pickup. Pick those cards up and play spades. It’s the same deck. Everybody has a deck of cards somewhere around the apartment, or the neighbor has one, and you can just borrow theirs, never give them back or or go to the deli, if you live in New York, go to the deli, go to the bodega, grab your deck of cards and play this very accessible game. Reason two, it’s great to have a partner. Life’s just better when you have help and spades. For those who don’t know, for the Brooklyn hister community, who may not be aware, it’s a game where there’s two teams and there’s two teams of two, so just two versus two, and you can play with somebody who just helps you win. It makes the game easier. It’s teamwork. It builds character. You learn how to work with other people. It’s a group project. You get into the game with one common goal. Now, uno, on the other hand, very tricky, because there’s no teams, but yet, somehow during the games, there becomes this weird, weird collusion that happens. There’s like impromptu teams and like alliances forming to stop somebody like, Oh, he’s got two cards left. Make him draw 13, or, like, his last card is yellow, change the color to purple. And it’s like, wait, what happened to everybody for themselves? Like, why are y’all now all trying to fight a proxy war to just like, get ahead in this game? Game, and it’s just weird. It gets really weird, really convoluted. Spades, you just pick your partner at the beginning of the game, and y’all have one shared, common mission. Okay, you can play with your significant other, you can play with a friend, you can play with a stranger, and y’all bond over that, that that special game of spades. And if your hands thinks your teammate, they could pick you up, if, if there’s their hands, thinks you could pick your teammate up, it just, it just helps to have somebody to lean on. And my last reason, and this probably most important reason for me, spades has a clear ending. Very clear ending. When you play spades, there is a clear winner and a clear loser. You count up the points, whatever point total y’all set, count up the books, and you just see who won who lost, right? That’s it. Uno, after the first person like is out. Per se, people still want to play the game. People still want to play to see who got fourth place. I don’t understand that. It doesn’t make any sense to me. Why y’all still playing this game? Why is this game now three hours long? Why do you have to clear your schedule out to play Uno? You got to call your family and tell them that, hey, I’ll be home. In three weeks, because this Uno games is getting out of hand. Spades, if you have lives, if you have things to do, play spades, because you will get to the end in a responsible and timely manner.

 

Ronald young Jr.  06:14

Okay, so you might see me cheesy and gritty. It’s because of all the arguments on the show. This is probably my time for my first we did an Android versus iPhone, and they’re just so these are such subjective arguments, but I love it, because there’s clear positions on both sides. Great opening argument Talib. Abe, I’m looking at your face, and I can tell that you have rebuttals and an opening argument, I give you some time now to present your case that Uno is the superior card game to spades.

 

Abe Gatling  06:45

Hey, I got hella bottles, fam. Uh, listen, great points to lead, really wonderful stuff. Appreciate that. As eloquent as ever, but I really have one reason that Uno is a superior card game, and it’s because of its unmatched inclusivity. Okay? Spades, half of the appeal of spades, if we’re gonna be real, is the barrier to entry. Because you remember growing up, nobody taught you how to play. You had to, like, absorb the rules through, like, this weird osmosis. You just had to hang around the adults table like peek over your aunt’s shoulder and handling like second hand smoke to try and figure out what a Boston was. Okay, spades is a speakeasy. You understand spades as a as a card game. You gotta wait 45 minutes outside of a juice shop. There’s a you get in the back, there’s a bounce, you gotta say a goofy password, like two when a possible. And then when you get in the back, you realize, oh, this is not worth the hype at all. And now I’m paying $18 for a grapefruit martini made by an English major in a fedora. That’s what space is. You understand Uno. Uno. On the other hand, you can have up to 10 players. Okay? It starts as young as three years old. It’s such a simple, universal game that everyone can relate to. It runs the gamut of human emotions. It runs the gamut of of status, position. Everybody knows what it’s like to be the first one to yell uno out. Nothing better. Everyone knows what it’s like to be in that horrible position where you you at the end of a draw to stack, just keep going. Draw two, draw […] to and it ends on you. And you’re like, I’m gonna, I need to rethink my, my life. We’ve all been there. Those are human experiences that exist beyond just some silly card game. You know what I mean? Like, we all know what a real life uno reverse card is. You know what I mean? Like, I could be like I thought I could eat street meat at 2am last night, but it pulled an Uno reverse card on me, and that’s why I’m late to work like we can do that. That’s why it’s called Uno. You understand it’s a singular experience that everyone can relate to, which is why it transcends spades as a card game to me.

 

Ronald young Jr.  09:18

Wow, you said it’s called Uno because it’s a singular experience that everyone can relate to. Talib, let’s actually dig into that a little bit. So one of the things that Abe is pointing out is the unmatched inclusivity, and that’s kind of one of the problems that I have with spades was that I learned because my sister actually taught me. She taught me because she went to Norfolk State University and which is an HBCU, and she got basically, like accosted into learning spades because she didn’t know how to play. But all three of us have been in a situation where someone did not know how to play spades, and they were then they were attacked by their partner for sandbagging or putting like, for reneging whatever on the floor. And. Tulip what? What do you have to say about this type of like, trial by fire, entryway into playing spades. Is this a negative or a positive?

 

Talib Babb  10:07

I think it’s a positive. It teaches you about life as a black person. One mistake could cost you a lot. Okay, so we have to really be hard on each other. How haven’t you learned Spades? How haven’t you learn to, like, be aware of your surroundings. You got to pick up on things. We got to speak coded language. We can’t be like, Hey, you put this color down, and then you reverse that color, and then the number, oh, that’s no. Life is not simple, like that. Life is as a minority, as a person, because a black person, it’s an African American. Life is not that simple. It’s not that clear, cut and dry. We have to, we have to have things that we can keep exclusive to us as a part of our culture and only our culture. We can’t just have everything going willy nilly all over the place for one singular human experience. It’s not how this works, not how life works. We got to keep and hold on to the things that we have and shout out to you learning from your sister. That’s how it’s got to be.  We got to be it’s tough love. Okay, we don’t mean any harm. We just want you to open your eyes and understand we got to be able to pass things on. It’s like you’re not going to learn Spades from from anybody else. It’s going to be from us. Okay? It’s either from us or you don’t learn at all. I love that aspect of Spades. Y’all got the internet, right? We have the internet Absolutely, we’re talking we’re on the internet right now. Yes, yeah, I think that was a valid argument in 1977 brother, like, I think that, and I understand. I’m all for I’m all for gatekeeping. I’m all for lightly coded respectability politics. I’m all for I’m all for getting on people who look like me. I’m all for tearing them down, for not knowing something. I’m all for it if you got, if you’re gonna, if you’re going to lambast somebody for being innocent and not being of the world. Go for it. I’m of the opinion that one you can google spades now. Anybody who wants to know how to play can now learn how to play. I think that as to leave was saying, as a black American, this world is not built for us. This world’s not built for our comfort, our safety, and if anything, we should be the ones. We have to be the ones to protect each other, rather than to go. You don’t know about Spades, you idiot. Well, guess what? I’m not gonna teach it be on your way. And I think that. I don’t think I’m talking crazy here by saying that. I think that’s how the majority of that’s how the process happened for the majority of us, right, correct? You want to learn how to spade play spades. You ask somebody, they go, no, and then you just wait until somebody’s kind enough to reach down and teach you this mediocre card game. But as far as like the we gotta preserve what are we preserving? Dog? It’s not there’s a Wikipedia page about it. If anybody wants to learn, think of learn. It ain’t that special. This is exactly what I’m talking about. The appeal of spades is the barrier to entry. The appeal of spades is the exclusivity. The appeal is, Oh, what’s this thing that I can’t attain? The gatekeeping within the community is banana. Like, is bananas to me? Like, what is to be gained by keeping people out, keeping white people out, I get, don’t tell them anything. No, let them figure it out. But keeping us, keeping young folk from learning and enjoying the culture that doesn’t make sense to me. That’s an archaic thing. That’s, that’s got to be up out of here. That’s some old that’s some pre internet shit to lead.I’m not speaking to like people that are like, Hey, get out of here. You’re on a play space. No, no, I we should bring these people along. But there is a level of, Hey, man, tighten up. You better. Hey, figure out. Figure out your sandbagging or you’re reneging. You got to learn these words. So you got to study up, because Wikipedia ain’t gonna teach you all this. So you it’s different from real life experience. And reading a book, you can renege it, by the way, crazy, racist. I don’t think Can we just that, like that, like the worst thing you can do in spades, the worst thing, the worst defense, is called reneging. That sounds like what a proud boy says when his friend can’t stay out of trouble. I was like, oh, Colton county again. Yeah, man, that dude stay reneging. You’re like, what the fuck.

 

Ronald young Jr.  14:35

To be clear, and I need to make sure that we have a distinction. Reneging is spelled r, e n, e g.

 

Talib Babb  14:40

I believe, but that’s not how it sounds.

 

Ronald young Jr.  14:43

I know that’s not how it sounds, but it’s important distinction to make on an artist. It is, it is make sure that we get through standards and practices.

 

Talib Babb  14:50

Yeah, you’re right, my bad.

 

Ronald young Jr.  14:53

be back with more Pop Culture Debate Club after this break.

 

Speaker 2  14:57

I think what I’m hearing here is this argument about, like, it’s funny, because every time I have a black panelist, it always becomes an argument about Black culture, what it should be on our other episodes, with the hills, it normally comes here, so I’m very excited that it’s come to this place again, but we’re talking about, like, what black culture should be. Is it something that is taught, or is it something that is, like, inherently known over a period of time to lead defend why that’s important right now? Why is that important to have this thing that is passed down in this kind of, like, mean way, for lack of a better term that’s passed out, but it is important to the culture.

 

Talib Babb  18:44

It’s important to the culture. So I guess your question is two things. So first, teaching things is important, because if you again, if you’re just reading something or watching a YouTube tutorial, you could easily say it correct incorrectly, or do it incorrectly, or that’s how it just gets you got, like, random Twitter bots saying, using Ebonics, and then claiming it is theirs. Like, claiming me it is theirs, or I want to, I can’t say the word F boy that became a word that’s like, that was Rick we’re also saying that 15 years ago on mix tape, so now, like, they’ve reclaimed it and said that it’s a it’s a guy that’s like, philanderer. That’s not what that no, that f boy for the you could look it up off the record. You could look it up all once you get hit this podcast. It’s somebody who just makes mistakes constantly. It’s not a guy that’s out here doing X Y womanizer. It’s not it. That’s not don’t let them tell you that. Do not let them don’t let the Gen Z or whoever tell you that it’s not what it is. Okay. Go, listen, go, listen to the Port of Miami and find out what it really means, the true meaning of it. Okay. Secondly, I think everybody this this cold like, the way that these card games with the culture works. I think why we love these card games so much with the culture is like, it’s because you could just, it’s so you can multitask with these, with these card games. I feel like you could play spades and you at a cookout and you could be drinking, you could be eating, you could be smoking, you could do whatever you want and still play these games. I don’t advise doing all that while you’re playing these games, but like you can do them and still have a good time. It doesn’t distract from the actual time you’re having. You’re still building these bonds with people. You’re still catching up with people. There could be music playing, or there could be no music planning. Y’all having, like, a whole discussion about life, catching up, you know, a therapy session, whatever it is. And it’s also a good escape from these moments when you’re when you’re Abe mentioned about Uno, and I will uno into this for sure. Like, it’s a good escape, like, both these car games. We love this game so much as a community, because it’s a good escape from whatever’s going on, right? Like, it’s a really good whether it’s, like, out in the world, world, or, like, if you had a party and your aunt brings her boyfriend in that you don’t like, and you’re the I don’t be around this guy. I’m gonna go to the card table. I’m gonna go play Uno or spades or whatever, or, Oh, I’m inside. The baby’s too loud. It smells crazy in here. I’m gonna go outside and play at the card table. Like, it’s very accessible and like, very essential to a party, and you can still have a good time. And it’s not like a thing that you have to, like, you know, whether it’s video games, you got to get a TV and a good setup and some controllers, or or sports, you got to actually, like, be good at those or, like, you got to sweat. It’s just, it’s so much evolve, where it’s just cards, uno or spades, Hey, man, just, just get the cards. Now you got to go work to find some Uno cards. But hey, if you have a deck of them, you could play them still. The question was black culture being taught or learned, and if that’s good or bad, sorry, I just just got lost into leaves eyes. I think that, you know, it’s a little complicated of a question. It’s a little complicated of a question in that it is.

 

Abe Gatling  19:46

I think that there are certain things that we, yeah, that we need to preserve in the black community. I think there are certain things that need to be protected, for sure. I think that that ideology permeates almost everything in our culture, and that could be good in some ways and that could be detrimental in other ways where you go. Certain things need like because of the value that they hold within our community. Certain things need to be protected. Certain things need to be because if, if they are exposed to the world, then we risk losing them, or we risk manipulation, like knowledge of how to operate around police is something that you need to to learn, that needs to be passed down, and also you need to negotiate when to introduce those rules to your child. If you do it too early, you run the risk of them, think just up to a certain age like kids need to understand that cops are there to protect you until you’re old enough to know that that’s a little bit more complicated. So negotiate. It’s a negotiation between how we expose our black children to the world and the way that protect that keeps them protected. Do I think that applies to everything? No, do I think that applies to spades? Definitely not. But I do think this sense of needing to protect ourselves from the world and protect our culture from the world is, for sure, like because if that doesn’t happen, we got a whole bunch of Jack Carlos running around. We can’t have that. Uno is not something we have to worry about for that. And I think that that is a positive. I think that there’s nothing it represents something pure. It’s pure entertainment. It’s pure joy. And when black people play it as what happens with most things is just more fun. And so we elevate it, like house rules. House Rules is for was, for sure, made up a black person. You know? I mean, like the like stacking is, that’s a that’s like the most black American thing i i think we can do, which is the thing that we’re kind of the best at, is, like, taking rules, bending them to create and elevate a thing like language. We are just the best at, like, alchemizing new slang, new whatever to elevate the language. Uno, we took those, like pretty basic rules and bent them so that you could stack, do a combo, you could do a sure, you can in in car form, and elevate it. So I don’t think it’s something that needs to be protected in the sense that it’s I think it’s already so pure. But I do agree with you that, like there are things within the culture we need to protect, I just don’t think space is wonderful.

 

Ronald young Jr.  24:38

Let’s talk about that, though, because in some cases you’re talking about the gameplay itself of UNO, which UNO has officially come out and said that some of the ways in which black folks are playing the game are incorrect, to which we’ve all seen the tweet, the response was, thank you for the cards. We’ll take it from here. Which is, I absolutely. Agree with that. But how important is that? Like you and you talked a little bit, I just want to expand a little bit. How important is that that black folks are taking this game that has a set set of rules and making it that even better? Like, why is that important?

 

Abe Gatling  25:13

Because that’s what we’ve been doing throughout American history. They didn’t let Black people play because we were gonna just yam on people.

 

Ronald young Jr.  25:24

Basketball, of course, this is a podcast, but I like that you show.

 

Ronald young Jr.  25:27

That’s a strong point to leave, like, in the fact that we in remixing and what black culture is doing, because now I’m realizing that y’all both have very strong black culture arguments we’re talking defend and create, both of which, I think on both sides you agree with. But Talib, why do you think in this case that defending the existing culture that we have behind spades, including the barrier to entry, is more important than kind of creating this black culture that does exist with Uno? Because I know you’ve played uno at cookouts as well. So like, what? Why? How would you how would you say one, compare one to the other, and say, what is more important in your eyes?

 

Abe Gatling  25:27

Yeah, whatever I just I did. You can fear it to that phone. You can hear it, yeah. Just mind you felt it, yeah, for the people at home, I just mind doing a reverse dunk alone, um, but I think that it is, it’s important, let’s I think we just do that as as a people, yeah, but I do think it is important to recognize that that is something we are very proficient at doing, despite the tweets, despite the notifications that, quote, unquote, this is not how it’s supposed to be played. Well, if it’s not how it’s supposed to be played, why am I having so much more fun right now? Why am I why is everybody talking like we do? Why? Why are we the most popular group of generative folks on the planet right now, like, if we are, if this isn’t how it’s supposed to be done, why are we doing it, and why does everybody love our shit? Is the question I would ask to that question.

 

Talib Babb  27:07

It’s more important to defend because when you talk about uno stepping in and saying, Hey, you can’t hold those cards that way, or whatever, they say to y’all, I’m not trying to play a game that’s xenophobic. Or is this trying to be demanding and tell me how I’m supposed to play the game. No, that’s spades, Mr. Or Mrs. Spades, whoever they are, they never came out and was like, Hey, you can’t. No, you can’t do that. Guys don’t. No, no, that’s a whoopsie. No. Spades just lets us play the game and enjoy the game that we the way we would like to. And I think that’s important, because there we’re always being told how to act. We’re always being told what to do and what rules we should follow and what this and that, huh, how to wear our hair and how to how to wear this. UNO’s gonna come out and say, Oh, I don’t like dreads. We shouldn’t be playing our game with dreadlocks. We don’t need that. We can’t let uno or anybody else come in and tell us how to do things. And I play Uno, I do, but I disagree. I don’t like how they come in and try to tell you how the game was played. And then when you do play Uno, it’s a lot of confusion, a lot of confusion. However, you all want to say it’s inclusive, and we all want to play it everybody plays it differently. So now it’s 18 y’all trying to play and everybody’s disputing a way that the game is played, because everybody plays it differently. And sometimes that gets a little that gets a little frustrating and a little fatiguing. I don’t want to play a game where every person has played it completely different, and now we’re trying to argue, oh no, you can’t stack that. Oh no, you only get one card. And we’re only doing colors. We’re only doing numbers. It’s all these preambles where spades is just spades. Man, if you know, you know, uh,

 

Abe Gatling  28:38

What’s your top five? Ronald, first.

 

Ronald young Jr.  28:43

What do you mean? Like,

 

Abe Gatling  28:44

What are your top five strongest cars? Like, Big Little deuce of diamonds, deuce of spades, ace of spades. Is that your top five?

 

Ronald young Jr.  28:50

That’s exactly it, yeah.

 

Abe Gatling  28:51

Talib, si that your top five?

 

Talib Babb  28:53

Yeah, we’ll say that for now.

 

Abe Gatling  28:54

Okay, I like this argument that you know spades a spades. I Googled this because I’m unemployed and I have nothing to do. And I saw, I was trying to see if people have different top fives, wildly different. I saw some crazy, like things that I would consider crazy on the internet about like people’s top five states. Some people didn’t even, didn’t have deuce of diamonds. It just went big, little ace, king, queen. That’s your top five. What are you high like? But this is what I’m saying. Like, there were, there were even within this, quote, unquote, like monolith, this mainstay that never changes. In spades, there’s divisions of how we think, how people think the game, which should be played. And I say that to say there are always going to be offshoots. There’s always going to be divisions, even within a thing that we consider, or have been taught is one no. Quote, monolithic. This is how things are supposed to be done. It’s never going to be that way. There will always be revisions, innovations, like tweaks. So to say that something is what it is is dishonest. Nothing is ever is what it is. It’ll always be a reflection. It’ll always be a reflection of the people playing it. It’ll always be a reflection of the area you’re in. So to deny that that’s gonna happen is silly and goofy. I reject this argument. What I say about Uno is, you ever play 21 you ever run pickup before you don’t just start playing that’s insane. Or you’ll end up in a fist fight. You lay the ground rules, and that’s like a two minute conversation, right? Game, 16 ones and twos, all right? We playing uno, white people rules, or we playing uno with stacks, that’s and then, and then you play communication is key. Just talk about it, and then it’s not confusing, and then you can just have fun. Just have fun. Instead of having to be like, Oh, it’s space is like an old ass. It’s like an uncle that typifies, like a black uncle, like an obdurate black dude who’s just like, yeah, the way things are, it’s like, then die, bro. Like you just this world isn’t built for you. If you’re inflexible, get about the paint. Bro, I got draw fours to play.

 

Talib Babb  29:30

I appreciate the argument, but you started the argument saying I googled and what did we just talk about? The Internet is a different world, like I don’t have these issues when I play space in real life, but when I play Uno in real life, as these issues arise, and again, it’s because when you’re playing in real life, that’s just a different this unspoken word is we all have we know, we know you. Like, can’t let Google tell you how to play or what’s the top card. Like, Google will tell you anything, Google, anything. Google will tell you whatever. Right now, AI will tell you whatever you it wants to tell you, whatever, some white guy or some, some random person trained them to tell them, tell us. Okay, so that’s my argument to that is, you can Google all you want, but when you get out into the real world and you play spades, there’s far less ground rules that need to be set because the people that play spades know how to play spades. So leave Google out of this. You got to go and touch the deck of cards outside of some grass.

 

Ronald young Jr.  32:33

We’ll be back with more PCDC after this break.

 

Speaker 3  32:48

Okay, let’s go to closing arguments. I love this. Let’s go to closing arguments. And Abe, I’ll start with you this time. Uno is a superior game to spades.

 

Abe Gatling  33:56

I mean, you know, we had a spirited conversation. I say spirited intentionally. I don’t say competitive, because I don’t think this was much of a competition. I think in terms of the year of our lower 2025 in terms of trying to move forward with positivity and creativity, uno is the game that keeps evolving spaces. I mean, we love spades, just like we love something old. I’m tired. I can’t think of an apt analogy, some old ass bullshit that we used to love but doesn’t serve us anymore. That’s spades to and to leave. You know, did a good job of letting us know. You know to it’s spades is very representative of our past, something to be remembered, something to be valued. But. Often with things that exist in the past are romanticized spades. There’s a lot of hand waving around Spades. There’s a lot of ooh, this game is a classic. This game just because something’s classic doesn’t mean it’s good. Think about all the old ass movies people like, Oh, you got to watch this French film from 1960 and you watch and you’re just like, This is just This is garbage. Where are the explosions? This is the thing Uno, no matter how many people are playing, has the ability to become a seismic event at any gathering. You play with two people. You ever have three skips and two reverses while you’re playing with two people? It’s demoralizing to be on the other side of that. Skip back to me, reverse back to me. I’m gonna die on the opposite that’s that’s a beautiful that’s a beautiful feeling that spades cannot, cannot ever captured, because it is ultimately a relic uno ever evolving, but also ever present. That is why it is a superior car game. It’s also Joseph Campbell’s favorite card game. Do not fact check that.

 

Ronald young Jr.  36:17

Not be immediately about the Google.

 

Abe Gatling  36:19

Don’t Google, Talib said, don’t Google.

 

Ronald young Jr.  36:21

We’re not googling on this. Committed to not googling. We’re not googling. Nothing, great closing argument. Talib, give me your closing argument. Spades is better than Uno.

 

Talib Babb  36:34

Funny, the Abe mentions, you know, being present, and then the surprise and the epic look in this world that’s full of uncertainty and having so little things that we can control. I don’t look I don’t want to be sitting down at the table and then be told to pick up 34 cards like when I was about to win, like I was about I was really about to win the game. We were all about to get up and go about the rest of our evenings, but now we gotta push back into reservations. The babysitter they they gotta say an extra two hours because, oh, sorry, hey, I just had to pick up 62 more cards. So you gotta tuck her in tonight. All right, I’m not doing any of that. Why not play a game that you have a little more control in you know, you pick your partner. You pick your partner. You guys have a get. You pick your bids. You decide, hey, how many? How many think you can win? How many? You iron things out. You come to this game with with sense and strategy. And then you try to get creative with the hanger, don’t you try to win. And you have, again, a partner, somebody there, you are gonna have a life long like, like, memory with you guys played spades together. You guys, whether you lost or won, you guys were in the trenches together. You could play again. Play with somebody you know. Play with a whole stranger. You never know what that game could open up for you. You never know you play with a stranger, and then, I don’t know, a couple years later, that stranger is now the CEO of a Fortune 500 company, because that’s what space players usually are capable of. We’re pretty we’re very smart people. We’re very thoughtful, hard working, ambitious, reach for the stars people. And when they’re that, that fortune 500 CEO, and they’re like, Man, I need to, I need to, like, have other people around that can help bring my vision to life and and we can, we can really, like, give back to the community. Like, oh, who was that guy I played spades with? He was really good. He was, oh, man, that one took out a few years ago. You get that call, you get that call. And now you’re chief financial officer. Now you’re head of philanthropy at this, this fortune 500 company, and now you guys are changing the world together, because spades opens doors. All right. I rest my case.

 

Ronald young Jr.  38:55

Wow, okay. Are y’all ready for my ruling?

 

Abe Gatling  38:59

Absolutely.

 

Talib Babb  39:00

Yeah.

 

Ronald young Jr.  39:00

Let me just say this is a very, yeah. This is a very fun debate, very intellectual arguments of both sides, for and against both games. As I already gave y’all a little bit of my history, my sister is one who taught me how to play Spades, which means that by the time I got into a place, a don’t assume where I’m going again. I’m just I have a bit to talk about before I get to my ruling. Don’t even worry. Okay, you’re already shaking your head like you’ve lost. You have not lost yet.

 

Abe Gatling  39:30

He knows, the argument was laid down well and thoughtfully.

 

Ronald young Jr.  39:33

So when it comes down to it, learning how to play and connecting with the game in that way. When I went to go play with folks, I already kind of knew what I was doing. I still made mistakes and got yelled at, but I already kind of knew what I was doing enough to continue to play and learn how to play the game. There is nothing worse in a Spade’s game than looking across at a partner who is much better than you and making a mistake and them actually looking at you in real time like they are going to murder. You like, like this, is it like when this is over, I’m gonna fist fight you. And I’ve seen fights. We’ve all seen fights break out over any card game, spoons, spades, uno, anything that Domino’s, anything that they’re playing at a table, you could see a fight break out, especially if they start putting money on the line. And honestly,  if we’re being completely honest, we are talking about black folks playing both of these games, and typically in enclosed black settings, cookouts, family, you know, after Thanksgiving, after Christmas, Memorial Day, like, whatever. We’re talking about enclosed black people playing this and and really, this is an argument about saying, like, what do what game do we want to play at this event right now. Well, I mean, there’s pros and cons to both, and y’all touched on both. One thing we didn’t touch on enough was that one of them, only four people can play at a time. So you can have more than one spades table running, but only four people can play one game of spades at a time, and it can take a little while. Like, I think you have to get up to 100 points or whatever, depending on the books or whatever, and so, like, but there is a definitive ending, which I think is a good point, there is a definitive end to that. Uno is a little more sloppy. You could play with up to 10 players, but I’ve been in a 10 player uno game, and there’s a way in which you could feel a disconnect being that person that’s been skipped like three or four times, gaining cards in your hand, and immediately feeling like, man, do I even want to play this game anymore. Like this is just, I keep getting skipped. They keep reversing me. The weird collusion really resonated with me and Abe, I don’t know if you’ve played games where you’ve been like, all of a sudden three people are against you, and you’re not certain why. You’re just like, I don’t know what I did, but all of a sudden they’re like, it seems fun to just keep giving Abe cards over and over again. You’re like, is this kind of the experience that I want to be having, and I have to compare like, is that experience worse than having a person that you love, like person you are in love with, your father, your uncle, or even a partner stare daggers at you across the across the room because you just reneged? You know what I mean, like, which one feels more awkward and terrible in that situation, you use the word lightly coded respectability politics, Abe. And I think that’s true, and I think that kind of shifted my mindset into thinking about like, the two wonderful things that black people do. One of them is, is, defend what we have created, defend our culture. It is the reason why we engage with Jack Harlow. The way that we do it is the reason why we look at that, Catch me outside girl, and say, like, is this what we want for our culture? Like culture, Vulturing is a real thing, whereas we also are so good at remixing the things that exist no matter what it is like the thing that the way that we sing the Stevie Wonder Happy Birthday song instead of regular Happy birthday, or in addition to Happy Birthday, that’s us, and that’s one of the best things about us, which makes it difficult to make this decision, right, because at the end of the day, I love the way we play Uno. I love it. And if Uno is at a place, I still want to play. I don’t want to play with 10 people, but I still want to play. But ultimately, and I think we all could agree, the defense of our culture at a time like this, for me, feels more important. And even though Spades is a very painful game and hurtful for a lot of us and it has personally victimized each and every one is now you can start shaking your head Abe rigged. I think.

 

Abe Gatling  43:18

I thought as a fellow bald.

 

Ronald young Jr.  43:22

Let me say it. You can jump in. Let me say it.

 

Abe Gatling  43:24

Sorry.

 

Ronald young Jr.  43:28

Because of that,  I think it is probably a safer bet for us to continue to defend our culture and to defend the playing of Spades over Uno at the cookout. Go ahead.

 

Abe Gatling  43:40

Can I say now?

 

Ronald young Jr.  43:41

Yes.

 

Abe Gatling  43:42

Rigged. The second I heard you bring up your sister, I knew you could lie to me, Ronald.

 

Ronald young Jr.  43:52

No, you, but I knew several times. Abe, you had me several times.

 

Abe Gatling  43:56

I knew brother said. I thought you’d be I thought you had my back as a fellow ball, but no.

 

Ronald young Jr.  44:03

I do think it okay so, but think is Abe like sometimes with these arguments, what happens is, there’s a place where we’re all agreeing, and I think when we’re all agreeing that the defense of black culture is important, I think it’s hard to back away from that in this sense, to say, like, if we kept playing uno, but all of a sudden this culture around spades, this mystique that we all hate, disappeared. We would feel like we were missing something.

 

Abe Gatling  44:27

I hear that, right, yeah.

 

Ronald young Jr.  44:29

And I think that’s where I was like, Oh, I wouldn’t want spades to go away. If uno went away, we would just remix another game. But if spades went away, like, that’s like a pillar, it feels like a pillar of black culture. You know what I mean, even though I also think that Uno is representative of black culture.

 

Abe Gatling  44:42

So absolutely, good boy, Trump could remove spades tomorrow because his dei we’re like, Wait, whoa. We you know what? I mean, we got to protect it.

 

Ronald young Jr.  44:51

We’d still be like, yeah, like, Abe would be on the front lines with us, being like, Nah, why? Playing Uno and saying, protect spades. So thank you both so much for being here.

 

Talib Babb  45:00

This has been great. It’s been really fun, man.

 

Abe Gatling  45:02

Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

 

CREDITS  45:09

Thanks again to Talib Babb and Abe Gatling. You can find them both on the New York City stand up scene, and be sure to check out Talib’s’s latest New Yorker article on two factor authentication. Thanks so much for listening to Pop Culture Debate Club if you haven’t yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’ll get bonus content like Talib and Abe discussing Talib’s worst NBA hot takes. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com. Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Lemonada and the BBC.   It’s produced by Jamela Zarha Williams, Kryssy Pease,  Dani Matias and me, Ronald young Jr. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neel is VP of new content. Our Senior Vice President of weekly content  and production is Steve Nelson. Commissioning editor for the BBC is Rhian Roberts. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer.   Follow Pop Culture Debate Club, wherever you get your podcasts.