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Which political TV show is better: Veep or The West Wing? Two familiar voices square off this week, with former host Aminatou Sow returning to argue on behalf of Veep and previous guest Hrishikesh Hirway taking the side of The West Wing. This is not going to be an easy decision for new host Ronald Young Jr. to make! Aminatou says that recent political headlines prove that Veep is a realistic portrayal of American politics, warts and all, while The West Wing is a liberal fantasy. Hrishi contends that The West Wing wasn’t meant to be realistic and was rather an incredibly entertaining TV show, and that Veep’s satire became too biting to be enjoyable. Which show will Ronald cast his vote for?

Follow Aminatou @aminatou on Instagram and X and Hrishi @hrishihirway on X and Instagram.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Ronald young Jr., Aminatou Sow, Hrishikesh Hirway

Ronald young Jr.  00:00

Election season can be exhausting, especially if you’re following the real time updates. But rather than getting stressed out about who will become the new commander in chief, join us for a bit of a retrospective as we look back on two fictional US presidential administrations and place them head to head. On one side, we have Julia Louis Dreyfus leading an ensemble cast as Selena Meyer, the foul mouthed, morally dubious Vice President on Veep, or Martin Sheen, who also leads an ensemble cast as president Jed Bartlett, the New England Democrat with a heart of gold on the West Wing. Which show is better? Veep or the West Wing? We make that decision once and for all right here and right now on Pop Culture Debate Club, I’m Ronald young Jr.

 

Ronald young Jr.  00:57

So let’s meet our panelists for the day. I’m so honored to have switched chairs with the beloved host, emerita of Pop Culture Debate Club, writer and culture critic Aminatou Sow. Hello and welcome back, Aminatou.

 

Aminatou Sow  01:09

Yeah, it’s been so long, you know, hi.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:12

Good to have, yeah, what’s been like a week?

 

Aminatou Sow  01:15

I guess, right, that’s what I don’t know. I’m very bad at the calendar, so I trust you.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:22

Also joining us is musician, producer and creator and host of the hit podcast song exploder and the West Wing weekly, and a fellow radio topia colleague, Hrishikesh Hirway. Hello, Hrishi.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  01:34

Hey, Ronald, thank you so much for having me. I’m already intimidated knowing that I’m going up against both a PC DC insider and beltway Insider, and Aminatou.

 

Aminatou Sow  01:44

You know, it’s like the whole thing is a setup, like, don’t worry about it.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  01:48

You know, I love an underdog story. I’m the underdog.

 

Aminatou Sow  01:53

I don’t know man, you like host a political podcast. Are you the under? This is what Washington people always say they’re the underdog when you’ve been an insider all along.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  02:05

Was it a political podcast or was it just a TV podcast?

 

Aminatou Sow  02:08

See, this is also what they say. This is also what they say, like giving you fruit when it’s vegetables, I see what you’re doing and it’s not gonna work with me.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:17

So I love this. I love that he’s setting up the political theater by creating himself the position of underdog, just to make sure that if and when he wins, he has some sort of, already, some sort of built in support around the audience. So I think it’s a good play, Hrishi.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  02:32

Oh yeah. I mean, expectation setting is the first part of any debate. The most important part is the pre game.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:38

Well, let’s kick things off. Why don’t we get acquainted with each of your shows. I’m gonna not to tell me the premise of Veep.

 

Aminatou Sow  02:45

Veep is centered around protagonist Selena Meyer, played by Julia Louis Dreyfus, who is a fictional vice president of these United States. And the show, I guess, like, follows Selena Meyer and her entire team as they try to, you know, like, make a mark on American politics, but also do the thing that politicians are really trying to do, which is leave a legacy. And instead of doing all that good stuff, they’re just, like, mired in the day to day of political nonsense. That’s what Veep is about.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:20

I love it. Hrishi, tell me the premise of the West Wing.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  03:23

So the West Wing is very similar to Veep in that it’s a show set inside the White House.

 

Aminatou Sow  03:29

Align with my show.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:33

It’s a good strategy.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  03:36

I’m here to say there’s more that unites us than divides us.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:42

You have my von. And if I like idealistic please, this is working.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  03:46

If you like that idealistic platitude, you would love the West Wing.

 

Aminatou Sow  03:52

Okay, I’m topping for you and going for you. That’s good.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  03:57

The West Wing is really the original DC insider show. It was a drama that was created by Aaron Sorkin that debuted in september of 1999 it is centered around the senior staff of a fictional President played by Martin Sheen. And Martin Sheen originally his character President Bartlett wasn’t even going to be a big part of the show. It was really just going to be about the staffers, but Martin Sheen showed up and was so good and incredible that that character became a bigger and bigger part of the series. But still, the focus is really about what happens behind the scenes, of what goes on in DC and what goes on in the White House.

 

Ronald young Jr.  04:39

Our done with the pleasantries. Let’s get into the debate with opening arguments. Amanatou, let’s start with you.

 

Aminatou Sow  04:48

Listen, I am a woman of few words, so I’m just going to tell you this. If you like House of Cards for that, like ruthless ladder climbing that they do, this is the better version of that, if you like all the insane twists and turns and conspiracy theories of scandal, this is a better version of that. This show Veep, is the anti West Wing, and it is glorious. Also, I imagine that because of everything in the news, I don’t know if people have heard, but our president stepped aside to let their vice president run for the top of the ticket. Veep is in the conversation again. So I will not give a lot of spoilers, because I actually believe that a lot of people are watching the show for the first time. It was not a very popular show, like it’s one of those shows that like gets written about a lot, but if you look at the look at the numbers of how many people have seen it, it’s those two things don’t coincide. Welcome to liberal elite media complex, but so a lot of people are watching for the first time. I and I re watched a lot of episodes recently, and I do think that one of the things that makes the show even more relevant than ever is just how mean it is, because we have so much like stuff that in our culture that says that it’s satire, and I’m like the things that are passing for satire today, it’s like it’s not working for me. This show, like Veep, is not preachy, it’s not pedantic at all. It pulls none of its punches, and it also has a lot of pathos, weirdly, but it is consistently, like very cruel, and because of that consistency, I think it has aged better than any of those, like cringe shows like parks and recreation or the West Wing, any of these, like shows that, Like this reek of smug, self satisfied liberal wish fulfillment. So that’s my case for Veep.

 

Ronald young Jr.  06:46

Wow, you really embodied the show while making that argument. Rishi, your turn. What makes West Wing a better show than Veep?

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  06:56

I’d first like to respond to my opponent here by by agreeing with her, as the gentle lady points out the cruelty is the point, and I think that is actually a detriment to the show, especially as the show goes on. If you look at Veep across all seven seasons, its entire administration, I think that it actually starts to suffer as the show goes on, where the cruelty originally is laced with incredible sharpness and biting humor and it feels like satire. And as the show moves later and later in the seasons, it starts to really just be an engine for cruelty without the kind of cleverness that it had originally. My enjoyment of the series started really slackening as the as the show went on. I found it a little bit unpalatable towards the end, because it was just cruelty without the cleverness. I found myself laughing less and less and and just sort of watching these people be mean to each other. And it felt like too, too dark hearted, even, even for my satirical appetite, the West Wing while not.

 

Ronald young Jr.  08:16

Before, I let before I let you go on that way, did you want to? Did you want to respond directly to that?

 

Aminatou Sow  08:21

I just think that it’s interesting that my opponent has chosen to attack me instead of defending his policies and his choices. It’s a very cheap tactic, you know. Like, it’s not lost on me that this is all rhetoric, yeah, like, let’s hear about the West Wing. Like, what you love about it? Because right now I don’t know.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  08:44

What I love about the West Wing is all of the different feelings that it it delivered. It was, for sure, a fantasy. I don’t think that anybody involved with the show or watching the show, thought too much that this was a realistic depiction of of the world of politics. I think it gets dinged for that, sometimes unfairly. But really, it’s a it’s a fantasy, and it’s entertainment. It was a very funny show, despite being put in the category of drama, and it gave great drama as well. And it was also inspirational, and it featured some of the best dialog that has ever been on TV, ever. It also features some of the greatest acting that’s ever been on TV ever. The cast is unbelievable, and the ensemble as an ensemble, unbelievable, 95 Emmy nominations, 26 Emmy wins. I mean, those are numbers that speak for themselves, but I’m also here to speak for them.

 

Ronald young Jr.  09:57

Hrishi, that’s a great opening argument. I just want. To point out, do you think that any of the fact that it has more Emmy nominations I might be given ammunition time and not to has to do with the fact that it had a lot more, a lot more episodes than than V did, and Veep was a less watched show in some cases.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  10:16

Well, I think the fact that the west wing was more watched can’t really be held against it. The fact that it was one of the most popular shows when it aired, that it had millions and millions of viewers, only adds ammunition and ammunition to my argument.

 

Ronald young Jr.  10:35

Oh, my God.

 

Aminatou Sow  10:35

Again, because I am speaking for the people, a show. Having a lot of awards does not make it a good show. It just means that it has completed a lot of very good awards campaigns.

 

Ronald young Jr.  10:51

That concludes round number one. It’s time for a quick break, and we’ll come back with the bigger round you.

 

Ronald young Jr.  11:11

Well, let’s dig into the characterization, because I think that’s a big part of both of these shows. On one side, we have Jed Bartlett. On the other side, we have Selena Meyer. When we talk about dynamic characters between the two of them. They really are the lightning rod for a lot of what’s going on around them. So Hrishi, we’ll start with you. Jed Bartlett versus Selena Meyer, why are we siding with Jed Bartlett?

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  11:31

Well, certainly neither are perfect, but.

 

Aminatou Sow  11:39

I’m over, sorry. I’m laughing. It is really funny.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  11:45

But it is sort of like, why are we siding with the hero over a villain?

 

Aminatou Sow  11:51

I dare you.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  11:54

While I love the character of Selena Meyer, she is certainly a villain. I think the, I think President Bartlett is a flawed hero, but, for sure, a hero who is trying to reach for, to quote, The West Wing, his his better angels, and trying to get the most from the people around him. There’s another part of the West Wing where they talk about how I say, if you’re a dumb person, surround yourself with people who are smarter than you, and if you’re a smart person, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you, and and that’s something they say in the show, but I think it’s also the sort of plot driving force For the show as well. You see President Bartlett constantly arguing in the Oval Office, meaningfully, forcefully, with both his own advisors and outside and outside voices trying to figure out what the right answer is. And even though they don’t always get to the right answer, I appreciate it that they try.

 

Ronald young Jr.  13:00

Aminatou, I know you have a response. Give me Selena Meyer versus Jed Bartlett in favor of Selena Meyer. It

 

Aminatou Sow  13:07

is a false equivalency to pit a VP against a president like Selena Meyer is like she’s, she’s the Vice President and most of the universe of her show she gets to be president in season three absolutely. But she starts off as somebody who is not President, and I do think that like that, that that introduction is like, important, because, you know, she’s, here’s the deal as as a as a political scientist, we like, I know this the VP pick, like, doesn’t matter, right? It’s like you could pick, like, I could be Vice President of the United States. It’s like, you don’t really, it’s an understudy job where, if the President is smart, they kind of give you bad jobs because they don’t want you to steal their job. You know, like, that’s kind of how it works. But in terms of, like, who would the people, who would the people vote for and stuff, I’m like, in the world of today, like, Selena Meyer is president over Jed Bartlett, because if your point is that Americans make great choices, that’s not true. Like, that’s my that’s what, that’s why I’m arguing, like, in favor of Veep. I was like, this show like, it shows you what it is. It’s like, people vote against their own self interest all the time, every four years in Congress, specifically Americans like tell you for sure that they want exactly the opposite of what they ordered last time. And I’m like, this is the world that we’re living in, you know, where people don’t make good decisions. The President is not, you know, like a moral test for like, who we are. These are, these are jobs that we all have to participate in. And also, like, citizenship is more than just, like, who is president, who is VP, you know? And so, yeah, so all that to say that I think that it’s a false equivalency to pit these two up against President. I think it depends what year, it depends what the economy is doing, it depends what the deal is. But one. Of them, you meet him when he’s president, and you meet the other one when she’s VP, and it like that matters too.

 

Ronald young Jr.  15:06

So we’ve talked a lot about kind of the idealism versus reality, but let’s get into the writing of both of these individual shows. We have Aaron Sorkin on one side and we have Armando Iannucci on the other side, and both of them have very different writing styles. But Rishi, we’ll start with you speak to the strengths of Aaron Sorkin versus Armando Iannucci, who I know you’re a fan of.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  15:28

Oh yeah, please don’t make me do this.

 

Ronald young Jr.  15:30

Oh, I’m gonna make you do it.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  15:31

These are,  this is you really, this is, this is when it really comes into Sophie’s choice situation. For me, I love Armando, and she’s writing so much and his team, because I love the way that both of these writers write. You know, Ian Uchi for the thick of it, and for in the loop, and I imagine for vervee as well, really worked with with a group of people. I mean, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a guy on in the loop and the thick of it, whose credit is swearing consultant, because that show makes turns the F word into just an incredible paint brush. It’s really, really, please don’t make me do this, but I will say there are. I can certainly talk about the writing in the West Wing while I’m just gonna sidestep saying anything bad about Veep.

 

Ronald young Jr.  16:38

Because I can’t that’s an opening for you, Aminatou.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  16:42

The West Wing writing is it’s like listening to music. The different instruments each have their own parts and, and there’s a rhythm and, and it’s incredible. Aaron Sorkin comes from a playwriting background. Before it was a movie, A Few Good Men was a play that was on Broadway that he had written. He knows how to tell story entirely from dialog. What makes the West Wing so great, I think, is the fact that he was paired with a great director in Tommy and the two of them had their own strengths, but you could just listen to the West Wing, you could get everything you need from what’s happening in the show, all of the moments of dramatic tension and and just an incredible amount of storytelling. If they were just radio plays, the dialog is that good? I’ll point to a scene in the end of season two where the president, it’s kind of an insane thing to say, but the President, one of the President’s best moments of dialog is when he is in conversation with God. He is He is in the National Cathedral, and he is a devout Catholic, and sorry for the spoilers here, but his long term executive secretary has been killed in a car accident and at the end of the second season, and he’s been beset by all these challenges, and he doesn’t know whether or not he’s going to run for president again, whether he should just give in to all the hardship, and he has this angry tirade at God. He even goes into Latin while speaking to God, and it’s just an incredible performance, but it’s all fueled by the writing of Aaron Sorkin, which, again, was nominated for so many Emmys over the years.

 

Ronald young Jr.  18:46

Barring any Latin I’m not to speak to the strengths of Armando innucci versus those of Aaron Sorkin.

 

Aminatou Sow  18:53

I mean, two incredible writers, you know, for like, two very different reasons, like, I, you know, like, again, because I’m the honest candidate, I can, I can say when the truth is the truth. Like, I agree with everything my opponent has said about the these writing styles. I think that, again, you know, like something that it that is interesting is because I do agree. Like Aaron Sorkin is, like, it’s very like, theatrical, right? Like when you’re watching it, like even the shots that they use the walk and talk, which is such an innovation of his, which, PS, they do and have mastered on Veep, like it always kills me when they do the walk and talk on Veep, because I’m like, I’m like, we see the original inspo for this, and it’s, you know, but it’s like, deployed for a satire, as opposed to, like, let me give you soaring feelings about the White House, press, correspondence, dinner or whatever um is, yeah, it’s like, they’re just different writers. I think that what I really appreciate about Ian new cheese writing is how um, grounded in reality it is. I think that um. Writing for real people. How real people talk, you know, and it doesn’t feel like stilted or stunted or like there’s some sort of, like, you know, overly eloquent, like thespian dummy is. That’s its own strength. Like, especially in comedy, I think that people always think that, like, comedy is easier to write than drama, and I’m like, they’re like, hard for for different reasons. They’re they’re different. But I do think that, like writing dialog and comedy and having just these, like, brutal, short, pithy, like, one liners, is, you know, like, it’s, I can think there’s, like, a lot of, like, monologs in in West Wing that I remember where I’m like, Oh, wow. Like, I can’t, like, say them, but I was like, oh, I remember this moment where CJ says this or that, or whatever, with Veep, I can tell you the line, you know, like, I’m like, there’s like, 100 of them that, just like, come to mind, where I was like, wow. Like, this is effective. It’s good. It is punchy. And, you know, and so much of that also, I think it’s that, you know, it’s, he’s Scottish, like, they just come from, like, a different tradition of writing. I think that it’s different, like observational powers. I think they just do satire better on the other side of the Atlantic that we do here, because we have too much reverence for our institutions and for people in power. But, yeah, it’s a tough question, because they’re both, like, such good writers. But again, I was like, it’s like, what are you in the mood for? Are you in the mood for theater? Go to Broadway. Are you in the mood for like television? And are you in the mood for like today TV, like how people talk, watch V.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  21:36

I will say the world of politics isn’t one where we hear people talking like normal people, you know, stump speeches, debates, national conventions. These aren’t contexts in which we hear people having conversational dialog as much as you know, George W Bush won basically on the his, he seems like a guy. I want to have a beer with qualities. I think that it is theater. And so if we’re going to have theater, let’s have let’s have theater where we get to hear incredible, soaring dialog, things that we wish we could actually hear out of the mouths of the politicians that we do see on the convention stages.

 

Ronald young Jr.  22:27

It’s clear that both of you have a lot of respect for your opponent show, especially in terms of the writing. I like that. That marks the end of round number two after the break, it’s time for closing arguments.

 

Ronald young Jr.  22:54

Okay, we’re almost out of time. I’m gonna give each of you 30 seconds to state your closing argument. It’s a loose 30 seconds. We’ll start with you, Aminatou state your final case for Veep.

 

Aminatou Sow  23:04

You know, my opponent is gonna come here and give you a three minute monolog. Like, I just know it, it’s gonna be soothing. It’s gonna be yummy radio voice, you know, just, you know, like, the vibes are immaculate. Like a cannot lie, the vibes are immaculate. Like he is a cool dude. But I really want you to listen to what he’s saying, because it’ll make no sense. Also, since he opened up previously that so much of you know, like these shows about politics or theater, I will just say these two things if we’re going to discuss theater on an installment of pod save America, a podcast that is made up of former Obama insiders. They had interviewed. They did an interview with the Veep, the last Veep showrunner, David Mandel, and they were talking about, you know, like, what makes like, kind of like, what makes the show tick. And one of the hosts of the show, who worked in the administration previously said this, and I quote, The funny thing about Veep is that we, people who worked in the White House always get asked, okay, what’s the most real? Is it House of Cards is at West Wing. And the answer is, it’s Veep, because you guys nail the fragility of the egos and the like day to day idiocy of decision making. One point The second point is that on the day before Joe Biden stepped down, Aaron Sorkin wrote this op ed where he exactly am I hearing? Oh no, from the other side of the microphone. That’s right, voiced by your own petard. Aaron Sorkin writes this outside of the scope. It is very inside of the scope because you opened up the. Theater of it all. And I was like, here’s, yeah, thank you. No objections recorded where he writes this, like, insane op ed about how Mitt Romney should run for like, it was the most shark jumpy thing that could have, like, happened in that moment. I’m like, that tells you everything you need to know about that television show. It’s he, like, wanted to do the shark jump in real life, sir, stay in your lane. Like, relax. These are, this is not what we’re talking about. And I will concede that West Wing is a delightful show, actually, and it’s full of hope. It has big heart, incredible performance. Like, truly incredible performances, like, I cannot say that is not a good show. What I can tell you is that Veep is a more realistic show. It is more biting, it is more fitting for the times that we live in. It also is a better reminder than the work of being a citizen is not trusting that any of these people know what they’re doing, no matter how well intentioned they are. Also, Julia Louis Dreyfus, what can I say? First of all, what a smoke show, what an incredible actor, what an incredible person. And the way, I think that she has […] yeah, and I just think that like, she lives in the real world of like, being honest about the show that she was in, again, as opposed to my opponent show, where they still are selling you this fantasy of like, this is what politics are, and that’s time. Thank you.

 

Ronald young Jr.  26:33

It’s it was time time six. Okay, Hrishi, you have as much time as this is your final case.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  26:42

Okay, Veep is a great show. I love Veep. I will watch it over and over again but if you could only choose one, I would say, choose the West Wing, because the West Wing is not a show that should be judged on whether or not it is a realistic depiction of the political reality of America or the world. But what do you want from a show? How do you want to feel in your life? For me, I want to feel entertained. I want to laugh. I want to feel the pathos of drama, and I do want to feel inspired. I want to feel like I can be a better version of myself. I want to feel like the world has the possibility of becoming a better version of itself as well. I know that that’s not going to be easy, and I don’t think the West Wing depicts it as something that’s going to be easy. It is difficult, and it doesn’t shy away from that difficulty. But if you’re up for that challenge, maybe there is something a little bit better, a little bit brighter on the other side. I would love to watch a show that gives me that feeling over and over again, which is why I do not only watch the show over and over again. It’s part of the reason why I made a podcast. I spent four years of my life dedicated to talking about that show, because that’s a feeling that I can get behind.

 

Ronald young Jr.  28:15

Okay, the time has come for me to make my ruling over which one of these shows is better, and before I do that, I have to start with a confession, and the confession is the whole purpose of the debate is to come to a majority ruling, meaning two to one. There’s one on each side. I’m being the one that is pushing us up into the majority. And when we started this, it was two to one on Veep side. I thought there’s no way in the world that that West Wing could be proven to be a better show in this case. However, the debate kind of slid into something that I actually knew that I could get behind a bit. And the problem is, as soon as Hrishi pointed out the issue that he had with Veep in the beginning, it I realized it was the same issue I had with Veep, which is that towards the end, it gets to this place of kind of unmitigated cruelty, in a way that just makes my skin crawl in some cases, where there’s things that are being played for jokes, but the jokes are being stated with such a straight face where I’m just like, the ridiculousness of that is very funny. And the first time I probably saw it, I would have laughed, but upon my second or third re watch, it doesn’t feel as good. I will say there is an idealistic subplot of Richard split, which I’m not to you didn’t mention, and I wish you had, because I think that would have pushed me back over to your side. But unfortunately, because I’m realizing this is an argument of it became an argument of reality versus idealism. I realized that when I watch TV, I really want idealism, and even though I think that Veep is probably a better show, I would prefer, after this conversation, to watch the West Wing, and it probably has a lot to do with the election in the state that we’re in, which you pointed out well in the beginning, as well, I’m a not too so unfortunately, I have to give this one to Hrishi for attending the West Wing. I’m as surprised as all of you are. I did not expect the remaking this release.

 

Aminatou Sow  30:05

I’m not surprised. Nobody believes black women, nobody choices. I’m pulling that card now. I’m not surprised. But you know what? It’s okay in 10 years when this show’s still going, Ronald and you’re having this debate again, and you are apologizing to me for not seeing the brilliant choice of a Veep. Here’s the deal. These are such good shows, and I’m gonna confess something now that you’ve made your ruling, because obviously I’m like, I love both of these shows. I’m having the kind of day that I re watch two cathedrals, one of the best West Wing episodes ever. So congratulations to my opponent.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  30:49

Thank you. It’s an honor to be in this debate with you, Aminatou, you are my opponent, but again, in a very west wing kind of way, you are not my enemy.

 

Aminatou Sow  31:00

Wow, that’s good. That’s  why they win elections, ladies and gentlemen, that’s why.

 

Ronald young Jr.  31:07

Thank you both so much for being here today. This has been a lot of fun. You’ve made my inaugural episode of Pop Culture Debate Club a lot easier to be on. Thank you so much for being on the show.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  31:16

Thanks for having me.

 

Aminatou Sow  31:17

Thanks for having me, and good luck moving forward. You’re the best host ever.

 

Ronald young Jr.  31:23

Thank you.

 

Hrishikesh Hirway  31:23

Congratulations, Ronald.

 

Ronald young Jr.  31:31

Thanks again to Hrishikesh Hirway,  and Aminatou Sow for joining me today. Check out more from Amanatou at her substack, Aminatou.substack.com and we’re so excited to tell you that Hrishi’s podcast, the West Wing weekly, is back. Instead of breaking down an episode of The West Wing, you can hear him and his co host, Joshua Molina, talk about different political films, including Armando Ian new cheese in the loop, which Hrishi talked about in today’s episode. You can find that at patreon.com/theWestWingweekly.

 

Ronald young Jr.  32:00

And there’s more PCDC with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get access to exclusive bonus content like Nikki and Will the guests from the love Island us first UK episode talking about what type of person they’d look for if they went on the show.

 

CREDITS  32:15

Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Lemonada and the BBC.  It’s produced by Jamela Zarha Williams, Kryssy Pease,  Dani Matias and me, Ronald young Jr. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neel is VP of new content. Our SVP of weekly content is Steve Nelson. Commissioning editor for the BBC is Rhian Roberts. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer.  Follow Pop Culture Debate Club, wherever you get your podcasts.