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Description

How dare you, America’s Next Top Model?! We have never in our lives yelled at a reality show like this. But following the release of two new articles – for Insider and Bustle – detailing the abusive and traumatic nature of filming ANTM, Kiki, Mohanad, and Hoja decide to sit down with former Cycle 9 contestant Sarah Hartshorne. Together they unpack Sarah’s unique experience on the show, the chaotic methods in which producers tried making TV gold, and the reasons why modern-day viewers are angered by the pioneering program. Plus, Hoja and Kiki are both holding their friends accountable while Mohanad is suspicious of a comedy show attendee on this week’s Sorry Not Sorry.

Please note, I’m Sorry contains mature themes and may not be appropriate for all listeners.

Follow Sarah online at @SarahHartshorne.

You can find out more about our show @lemonadamedia on all social platforms, or follow us on Instagram @imsorry_podcast.

Need help saying sorry? Got any public apology fodder? Email us at imsorry@lemonadamedia.com or send us a DM on Instagram.

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For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Mohanad Elshieky, Hoja Lopez, Kiki Monique, Sarah Hartshorne

Kiki Monique  00:00

Hi I’m Kiki Monique. And this is I’M SORRY, the Webby nominated podcast about apologies. In our inaugural season pretty good. And this week, I was hit on by two separate men in the same night. So, I’m saying even though I’m a little older, a little fatter, have a little less tolerance for people in general. I still got it, is all I’m saying.

Hoja Lopez 

They cut straight through that to the chase. I love it.

Mohanad Elshieky 

This is one a little shaky, and this week I was in DC got to go around, see some stuff. The White House also known as the Buckingham Palace of the US, speaking of the Buckingham Palace. The queen, oh, is she there? We’ll see.

Hoja Lopez 

And my name is Ohio Lopez. And this week, when I was talking to my grandma, she said over the phone that she is, quote, tired of chewing. And I know that she means in general, and not just in that moment. I think she’s just tired of chewing and I just want to let you know that I love you so much, grandma. And that I hope you have many more years of chewing food. And that’s it.

Hoja Lopez 

Okay, so first off, as you said, Kiki, we are so excited to share that I’m sorry has been named a finalist for the Webby Awards this year. We did so good. And this means that essentially, we were in the top five podcasts among 1000s submitted in our category. It feels right, it feels true. But now we need your help. So, essentially, in every category, the judges select a winner. And then so to the listeners. So you can vote for the People’s Choice Award now through Thursday, April 21. And to vote, you go to vote.webbyawards.com, and you choose podcasts under categories, and then choose Arts and Culture under General series. So it’s vote.webbyawards.com. And then you choose the arts and culture under the general series. And then you can also find a direct link for the voting into the show notes and on Lemonada Social media accounts at @LemonadaMedia on all the platforms so we know we can win with the help of passionate listeners like you so please vote and tell your friends and family to support us.

Kiki Monique  02:29

And we’re not alone. We are a podcast house full of potential winners. Another Lemonada Show was nominated this year. Last Day. Last Day is a riveting Gracie award winning podcasts that zooms in on the last day of someone’s life and out to the larger view of deadly influences that led them there. It’s hosted by our show’s executive producer and Lemonada co-founder Stephanie Wittels Wachs. And this season the series is going to be tackling American gun crisis zooming in on communities in rural Montana, impacted by a high rate of firearm assisted suicides. The last day team also covers the high murder by firearm rate in Atlanta, Georgia. Last Day poses the question of how do we live safely in a country where there are more guns than people, Last Day is out wherever you get your podcast, new episodes premiere every Wednesday.

Hoja Lopez 

So today, we have Sarah Hartshorne. She’s a writer, comedian and content creator who was on cycle nine of America’s Next Top Model. And after the show she modeled all over the world for clients like Glamour, Vogue, Skechers and she’s written about her experience was with plus size modeling, travel and body image for Guardian bustle, self-go Nomad and more. And now she performs stand-up comedy all over the country and works directly with an amazing organization called the abortion access front, who was created by The Daily Show co-creator Lizz Winstead and we are so excited to have her. Well awesome. Sarah, welcome. We’re so happy to have you. We have Sarah Hartshorne today; Sarah was a contestant on cycle nine of the show. But you are a comedian or do you just stand up? What kind of comedy do you do?

Sarah Hartshorne  04:14

I do stand up and then I’m also a staff writer for a nonprofit that makes comedy content about reproductive rights called Abortion Access Rent or abortion AF and then yeah, so I do writing and stand up and whatever anyone will give me money for.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah, I think me and Kiki and Mo are exactly on the exact same boat, I loved ANTM, I was sort of like thinking of like, who I was when the show came out. And so I was like, what else was happening in 2003? And when I started going down the rabbit hole I was like, oh my God 2003 is Seminole. It’s like okay, so Justin Timberlake left and sink and put out justified so Cry Me a River. Senorita Rock your Body came out that year for Lizzie McGuire movie came out. From Justin To Kelly, with Kelly Clarkson. Which I mean, can you imagine the kind of optimism in that movie happening right now? I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s possible.

Sarah Hartshorne 

I was only tangentially aware of a lot of that. Because in 2003, I was still in high school. And I grew up in a town of 600 people in very rural Massachusetts. So I didn’t have TV. The nearest video store was like, 40 minutes away. So like, a lot of this was like, I was sort of aware, like from other people who lived in other towns in my high school.

Hoja Lopez 

Did you get plucked from that place to America’s Next Top Model? Like, how did you hear about the show?

Sarah Hartshorne

I didn’t know a lot about the show before I was on it. I’ve seen one cycle. But so I went to college in Boston, I left my very small town. So I’d been there for about a year I was like, and it was lots of like, Oh, my God, I can go to a seventh like process. My parents were big hippie. So it was a lot of like, culture shock of just like TV. So Top Model was like one of the ones that I did watch a little bit of with a friend. But I had a moment like, there was a moment on the boat, where at one point Miss J was like, you’ve all watched models walk the runway, and I was like, I have never watched models walk the runway, except once maybe on this show. And I was just like, I was like, well, I might be in over my head. That was the first moment where I was like, I don’t know anything.

Hoja Lopez  06:36

Yeah, that seems definitely like kind of a theme throughout the show of like them like this is a little country bumpkin girl just coming straight off the farm on ANTM. She doesn’t know shit about shit. So it seems it seems like that wasn’t a completely inaccurate sort of timeline.

Sarah Hartshorne 

I’d had a year in Boston, but that Yeah. I guess a year and a half by the time I was on the show, but yeah, it definitely was like, sort of absorbing as I went along. And, yeah, learning how to fly. So yeah, I heard about the show in Boston. And I tried out with a friend was how I sort of came aware of it.

Kiki Monique 

I was really actually surprised. Like, you know, at the beginning of the year, we did like, who’s going to get canceled and 2022 just making predictions. And I was actually surprised when I really looked at it today that Tyra Banks wasn’t on our bingo card. Because you know, if there’s anything TikTok taught me during lockdown was Gen Z wants to Tyra they want to bring her down. So I was surprised that we hadn’t included her. Because yeah, I mean, as people, you know, look, I love America’s Next Top Model. And I love Tyra Banks, and I always will, watching it through fresh eyes. If you’ve never grown up in that era of reality. I think people are seeing it now. And it’s like, shocking, but I mean, it was shocking even as I was watching it, but that’s what reality TV was like you had to go through these crazy things. So I even knew at the time when they’re like walking wooden planks and doing crazy I’m like this shit is crazy. No model does this but I’m here for it.

Sarah Hartshorne  08:12

I honestly after went, you know, I modeled for seven years after the show and like I had one photo shoot that was kind of cold. You know, it was a little chilly. But that was really it. But top model is at the nexus of two of the most toxic industries that exist like reality television and fashion. So of course, it’s going to have just deep dark twisties. But it is interesting to think about, yeah, Gen Z watching it, some of them rewatching it because they watched it when they were really young, and then sort of looking at that. And then but some of them watching it for the first time. And it must just be surreal. Because it was standard at the time. It was like, oh, a reality show. But this one’s about fashion. You know?

Hoja Lopez 

It’s so crazy. Like the amount of like exploitation at that point that we didn’t even realize was happening. And I think now we’re like, oh, we know what negative typecasting is, we know what like one sided contracts are, we know like the dangling carrot. Whereas at that point, it was like, the frickin jungle of reality TV and nobody knew what was happening.

Sarah Hartshorne 

And even as someone who was within the cogs of the machine, I didn’t see it, right? There were so many things that didn’t occur to me at the time. Like, you know, now looking back, I’m like, oh, that was exploitive. They should have paid us, but at the time, it was like whatever you want, whatever you want me to do, I will do because you are giving me something you are giving me a gift. And that was the dynamic so much that it never occurred to me that I had any leverage, which I didn’t to be fair, and they said that, a million girls would kill to be where you are. So it never seemed exploitative at the time and it’s only in retrospect that we’re able to see it.

Kiki Monique 

I mean, you went via because you tweeted, you know, somebody was like talking about and you replied like, yeah, I paid $40 a day, no residuals, and we had to pay for our own food. And people were like, what the fuck, like $40 a day?

Sarah Hartshorne  10:13

People a lot of people weren’t a lot of people were really upset with me for that tweet. I got death threats because of that. And I had no idea that people still were that obsessed with Tyra and top model, which, and which is why that tweet honestly haunts me because it’s also not totally accurate. It was $38, it wasn’t $40.

Hoja Lopez 

Still now you protect them.

Sarah Hartshorne 

Yeah. And, and it we weren’t technically paid at all. The $38 was a cash stipend that they gave us to pay for food. And they made a point of being like, we don’t have to do this. And so yeah, that was where I lost all my, I mean, I went home from the show. So stone cold broke, and I was really one of the lucky ones. Because from the get go, I tried to save a lot of my cash food stipend. Because I had gone in broke. And so I like had that mentality of like, okay, well, this is cash, so I got to keep as much as I can. And yeah, I mean, a lot of girls really struggled. And work. Yeah, went hungry and broke.

Kiki Monique 

But you, like, still keep a really positive attitude. Because you say, you know, people were like, oh, you know, but you were like, I didn’t say I hated the show, like, yeah, I hated what they did in this respect, they should have paid us. But I still like, don’t hate that I did the show. And I even I was watching one of your episodes, because I wanted to see you were one of the ones who got your hair chopped off. And, you know, you also seemed really like, hey, you know, I’ve been wanting to chop my hair. But I didn’t want to look like my mom. But they dyed it blonde. And I don’t look, you know, you were very positive the whole time. Like, do you still feel that way?

Sarah Hartshorne 

I do. I mean, it’s hard because it is definitely one of those things where you have to let two sort of uncomfortable truths exist at once, right? Like, it was exploitive. I wouldn’t recommend it for a lot of people. And at the same time, I am glad I did it because it was a formative experience for me. And yeah, I think it’s one of those things where just letting those two things exist at the same time can be tricky. And I think a lot of people who really love the show, that’s why they were so upset by my tweet, because they were like, I loved it. It made me happy. Why is that not true in these, like, whatever. 100 characters? Like why aren’t these 100 characters that you tweeted, reflecting the joy that it brought me? And it’s like, because it doesn’t? That’s my experience, and that is different than yours? Like, I think a lot of people had a hard time with that.

Mohanad Elshieky  12:35

Yeah, you know, we all know what he tweets something you have to include everyone else’s experience, every person just account for it. Or someone will be like, what about me, the psycho who you don’t know?

Sarah Hartshorne 

Yeah. Every tweet must apply to me.

Kiki Monique 

It’s so funny that you say like, yeah, like two truths can exist because Tyra to me, she represents like, she’s Oprah to me, in the sense of like, these are two women that raised me, right? And I will always love them, always appreciate them, and they can really do no wrongs. However, going back there are things that, you know, I, I want them to acknowledge, right? And address because they have to like, say, like, okay, I had to do that at the time, because that is how the time was. And now times are different. And like I see that, right? So yeah, I love America’s Next Top Model. And seeing all these things. It is horrific. But I also am like, I really still love that show.

Sarah Hartshorne 

My experience is also not by any means universal for people who are on the show. I do know there are some contestants who are legitimately traumatized and are still dealing with some serious repercussions from the show. I think, for me, nothing that the show did was worse than what the fashion industry did right after and nothing worse than what the culture around me had done to me as a teenager beforehand. So it can be contextualized in that because, you know, they didn’t exploit my childhood trauma. They didn’t. You know, I didn’t have physical injuries that lasted for years afterwards. You had the like, it’s a different time argument is very complicated, because it’s true.

Mohanad Elshieky  14:13

But yeah, I feel like a lot of it is just like her being like, well, these are the fucked up should I went through so it’s normal. So I am preparing you for how fucked up it is. By the same time just like, you can’t just continue to cycle of just everything bad happened to me, I have to inflict that on you. So you’ll be used to it. And instead of just like maybe like being a like, you know, a power of change in that way and be like, no, this is how we want to do it now and how I should make the industry different. I’d be like, no, this is the industry. We’re just going to keep it the same way. I’m going to prepare you for the worst possibilities ever. Like I don’t know, because I was reading the article like I mean, I didn’t really watch the show that much but you know, like the article that came out today. And some of the stuff I was like, holy shit. Yeah, I’m surprised there was no paragraph there was like there was a sniper or the roof or some shit.

Sarah Hartshorne 

Yeah, I mean, I also do want to just sort of distinguish and not to belittle what Tyra went through because I do very much think that she was someone who was the product and in some ways the victim of the fashion industry, right? And that is significant and that impacted her. And that is part of what you know, made the show harmful in some ways was from that from her participating in that system that she had been a part of since he was so young. And I don’t want to minimize that. But I do also want to say that the reality television aspect of it definitely made it so that it was beyond what she experienced. Right? Like yes, I’m sure very difficult runways that she walked down. I don’t know if it was ever, you know, a pendulum swinging over water that maybe had crocodiles.

Hoja Lopez  16:00

And truly that show was so many things. It was like yes, part photoshoot, but also part like Japanese like body like swung, hunch over game show. Plus also like the house. So there’s this element of like drama at the house like it truly has, in a makeover show which in and of itself, you had like that Swan show. So it literally tried to hit like, every single thing we were seeing in reality TV at that point. But then it’s like real people that are going through all these things, just with the hope of making it in fashion. So it truly yeah, it seems like even though people had different experiences of it, it seems like everybody kind of uniformly went through a tough experience something very difficult, even if maybe they came out of it without you know, this like hurt feeling. Do you guys have like a group chat? Like, do you all talk to each other? Like, where do you connect on a Facebook group?

Hoja Lopez 

We used to have an email chain, because also you have to remember I was on in 2008. This was before social media. So all we have is emails and they also took our phones away. So we did not really have like, we just we wrote on a piece of paper, our emails, and then I ended up I still have it actually I still have that piece of paper.

Hoja Lopez 

The phone stuff is really, because that’s pretty standard across all reality TV, it feels that they take people’s phones away and take away their ability to kind of like connect with family and like, is that to minimize like the possibility of that stuff coming out? Or what’s your impression of that?

Sarah Hartshorne 

It’s for a couple different reasons. Partially, a big thing is they don’t want you to know what time it is ever. And also, they want to disconnect you from your friends and family. Or really, it’s that they want to control your communication with them. So there was a phone in the house. And we would get like, say an hour where we were allowed to use it to call whoever, you know, whoever had signed the contract that we were allowed to talk to, we would get about an hour, which to be clear, not an hour each, we would get an hour and there were like 10 of us. Like I remember once, you know a bunch of people went over their time, so I didn’t get to call and I was like very upset. Michelle and I was like I don’t remember being like this was good drama. I am crying.

Kiki Monique  18:26

But did it not fit in with your life? Because who were you typecast? I mean, part of this article. And this article were mentioned, by the way is this insider article that came out by Kate Taylor that just she talked to a bunch of the contestants. And so like in the article talks about how they put everyone is like the bad girl, the party girl or the ugly duckling like Did you know what your typecast was? Because maybe that crime wouldn’t have fit in with it.

Sarah Hartshorne 

Yeah, I really didn’t. And I think that was part of the problem. And I think that’s why I didn’t make it farther was because maybe they did have an idea for me. And I just didn’t know what it was. I constantly felt like I was letting them down. Like, I knew that they wanted something from me. And I was a people pleaser. And so I wanted to do it, you know, and they asked these very leading questions in the interviews, because they would ask me, like, how do you feel about your body? Like, is it hard when you wake up? And you see that everyone’s thinner than you.

Kiki Monique 

I remember like, when I was rewatching the episodes I remembered you because you were, you were like a size eight. And I remember when I was watching the time, I was probably about maybe like a 12 or 14, probably 14 at the time. And I remember thinking like wow, so eight is a plus size. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to be a plus size model. I mean, forget the fact that I’m 5’6 right? I had other delusions right when I was like I’ll never be a plus size model because I’m a 14, it’s just amazing how far we’ve come right because like..

Sarah Hartshorne 

Which is ironic because the size 14 is the perfect plus size model. It was then and still now it’s right in them. Yeah, like 10 to 18 were agencies usually sign in 14 was like the sweet spot. I know it’s the way thing is a whole other thing that very much was just the show mirroring what was going on like in the world and in the industry and it was cool boy, it was messed up.

Kiki Monique  20:16

Well, yeah. And I think that’s like that’s the underlying thing about all of this. It’s like, yes, was America’s Next Top Model, like toxic for so many reasons, of course. But that’s because the fashion industry itself, which it was bored from was is still like one of the most toxic industries out there. So how could it not be right, and then, like you said, just elevating it to that reality TV level? I mean, I think it was interesting that you even use like, can’t repeat the cycle. Well, she actually did, they call them cycle.

Sarah Hartshorne 

They repeated the cycle 27 times. Or 24, however many there are. I don’t know. But so I don’t know what like role they wanted me to fill. It might have been like the country bumpkin who was super body positive. And I just failed on both accounts. I was like, I’m so sorry. Yeah. So I don’t know what archetype they wanted me to fill. But I know that I didn’t do it. And I know that like, I’m pretty sure they wanted me to cry when they cut all my hair off. And I was just like..

Kiki Monique

I mean, they definitely like I remember always being traumatized by the girls who had to cut all the hair off, especially the black girls, because I know how long it takes me to grow my hair. And I was like, oh my god, I’m gonna cry. And so when I saw you cheered, I was also like, very surprised. But like, it was interesting, because I remember there was a contestant, Jada, I don’t know, if she was mentioned in this article, or another article, Jada, you know, she was, you know, gorgeous, she have long hair. And everyone was saying later, like, they thought Tyra, you know, only chopped her hair to really like kind of, like, put her in her place. And, you know, it kind of got bad with her because then she had to go to like, she had a Spanish model who said he doesn’t like Black girls. And then she had to kiss him. And like those things I remember, even in the moment feeling like, ah, but also, I mean, again, because it was that era. I remember thinking, that’s what the modeling industry is like. And so that’s why you got to put up with it. I mean, I do remember having those thoughts.

Sarah Hartshorne  22:16

Yeah. And that part of it, honestly, is sort of accurate when you sign with an agency, like when I signed with an agency, they had me, I had grown my hair out a little bit and but it was dark, and it was sort of a weird reddish color, and they had me cut it and go blonde. And then that didn’t work. So they had me go back to Brown. But they do dictate, like what your hair looks like. And I know also, I was a catalog plus size model. So my experience was very different. But I know that like, you know, if they want to market you towards high fashion and they want to send you on Runway casting, sometimes the change will be really extreme and they will cut all your hair off or, you know, and yeah, and especially for black models, like a lot of them either have to work really hard to like have long hair that then is style able by idiot White stylist, or they’re pressured to keep it really short. So they can wear wigs, which they also have to bring in style themselves. And the industry has changed a little bit now so that there’s room for sort of more like expression especially if you have a social media following but at the time that I was on top model it very much was like you really got rebuild.

Hoja Lopez 

There’s also that new like the I don’t know if you read the bustle profile on Angelea Preston. And just kind of like also just reminds me of how much like we’ve changed our perspective on sex work and what that means now Yeah, and so it’s such an interesting lens. Like, to me that’s such a change between like, say a Vanessa Williams losing the Miss America crown because of pictures or Angelea losing her literal crown here. And it’s always a woman. And it’s always like a beauty focused thing. Because it’s sort of like those industries can be adjacent. And again, you’re being exploited at times in your life where you don’t know what’s going on, in many ways. And I wonder if you know, part of that is Angelea’s story too. But I know she came she was on cycle 12 and 14 and I was just reading about her particular experience and it seems like it is very different than yours in that way. It’s like hers went great until it didn’t. She had the best possible outcome of that and then it still even afterwards was kind of taken away from her. I mean, what are your thoughts I guess on her and you guys also read the article so it’s just an interesting perspective. You know?

Sarah Hartshorne 

I mean, the article was fascinating for a lot of reasons and frustrating for a lot of reasons. Partially because yeah, yet again, Someone is not just being victimized but then being punished again for being victimized, which is so backwards and is so typical. And it’s just I always say like, blaming models for the fashion industry is like blaming the decal on a car for the motor breaking down. It’s really backwards. They are not the ones in power. And I think the other thing is that, you know, it was really interesting to hear how the process was different for the All Stars, which I sort of knew, because I’ve talked to Bianca about it a little bit, who was on my cycle, and I think did an All Stars, because there’s a lot more contact with higher up producers.

Kiki Monique

Yeah, I mean, it was very bait and switch, you know, it was like, you know, anyone who read the article, it was like, clear that, like she had tried out for the first season, you know, didn’t get through, tried out for the next season, you know, got further, but then, you know, when she went into the fashion world to actually say like, okay, now I can try to become a model. All the agents were like, Oh, is this portfolio from top model? Because they nobody took reality star seriously, right? So here she has this portfolio, but nobody’s taking it seriously. So she can’t get real modeling jobs. And now she’s on hard times. And she is sort of like, gotten involved in this man who has there in the sex work world, which, you know, it can happen to anybody. It’s not like, it’s this thing where she was kidnapped off the street. It’s like, you meet a person we all saw Zola, right? It’s like you meet a friend. And then next thing, you know, you’re in Miami, who knows, you know, and that can happen to anyone. And then it’s like, she gets the chance to do all stars. And, you know, they had known that this sort of sort of happened to her. And maybe they didn’t know she was going to make it to the end. And then we get to the end. And now she’s being crowned or like, how will this affect us? So now we have to take away the money we’ve take away she can’t be a Cover Girl, if her history comes out. And yeah, it’s just, it’s wrong on every level. And I was sad to learn that, you know, she ended up dismissing her lawsuit because she was like, you know, there was no way I was going to win. Because she does deserve, you know, to get something for that. And these are the things that Tyra should speak out about, because again, I get that Tyree is the figurehead, I mean, but at the end of the day, the buck still stops with you, because your face is on, you know, on the brand.

Sarah Hartshorne

And she was very involved, which I think, you know, is both impressive and groundbreaking and also does mean yeah, that, you know, she does, then therefore need to be held responsible. And I think it’s frustrating for her because, and this is total conjecture, but she has apologized, right? She has said like, she tweeted, you know, it was really cringe. And it’s like, first of all, that’s not super enough. Like I get it, I get it feels I you know, it felt like a concession it felt. But it’s a tweet. And but also, you know, sometimes when you have done damage, and when you have inflicted harm, even if you were part of a bigger wheel, you have to sit with that. And I think there’s a hesitation to do that. And that’s not just Tyra, I think that’s sort of a that’s a big universal, right? People have a lot of Trump’s like we say cancel. And to me what that means is just sitting with the fact that you did something wrong.

Hoja Lopez  28:12

I especially think it’s like, difficult for celebrities, people in the public eye because they’re like, am I going to make this worse or more people going to come out? They’re going to love me or hate me no matter what I say. And so to a certain extent, I think it precludes people or it makes people even be shy about publicly apologizing, feeling like it’s going to bring even more hate and Tyra Banks was on the Tamron Hall Show. And she was kind of quoted as saying that she was still a model at that time when she was on the ante and that she hadn’t retired yet. And that she still felt like she was operating in the world that had so many rules. And while she was trying to push boundaries, she was torn, because she felt like she was really trying to make sure that these girls, we’re gonna get work after this. And that whole idea of like breaking beauty barriers, like, I didn’t know, you could be a plus size model until ANTM. So it always comes with this double-edged sword of we’re not doing it perfectly, and we’re fucking up but we’re pushing the dial just slightly more in the right direction. And that’s why I think sometimes you have to watch these things with a grain of salt. You can’t always like, brush it all with your current sort of like moral compass. There’s definitely something that it was doing, even if it wasn’t doing much, you know?

Sarah Hartshorne 

I don’t think that the models had to be exploited and taken advantage of in order to do that, you know what I mean? It’s like, and it’s not that that doesn’t just it’s and I also think that they have gotten their merits for the good that they did. I think there’s been a lot of patting on the back of like, yes, this shit was groundbreaking plus size inclusion. And I think that that good has been acknowledged, but I don’t necessarily think that the darker side of it has and I don’t think that that level they could have paid us, you know?

Mohanad Elshieky  30:15

Cuz they had the money. It’s just I feel like it’s mostly like they don’t deserve it literally just like we’re not we’re not gonna give it to them because not they’re not worthy of it. Period.

Sarah Hartshorne 

And they don’t have to write you don’t have to pay reality TV contestants in order to make successful reality TV people will be on the show, but just because people are willing to be exploited doesn’t mean you should exploit them. So I, you know, I’m of two minds with that. Because again, like I said, I am still glad I did the show. I don’t regret it. But I do think that they should regret it. Does that make sense? I think they can mock, should have some thoughts. I mean, the sex work thing is very much it’s a different time. But what’s frustrating there? There’s a reality TV angle to play there. That is family friendly. The victim card is sad. I don’t think again, I don’t think this is the way it should be. They could have played the victim card hard,

Hoja Lopez 

like you think that they could have, in her defense created a narrative that will actually helped her? And that they just chose not to do that. They were judging her essentially.

Sarah Hartshorne 

100%. And also, they were afraid.

Kiki Monique 

Yeah, because that storyline would have absolutely worked like we would have all been, we would have been rooting for her. We literally been like, I was rooting for you. Because like that is like to come through all of that and then end up the winner we would have been bawling our eyes out. And yeah, it was sad that they instead chose to just judge her and throw her away and literally scrub her entire existence. We don’t even the only reason we even know she won is because she sued them. Yeah, otherwise we never would have known and that’s terrible.

Sarah Hartshorne  

And sadly, her experience in the fashion industry is really typical. I remember, you know, going and meeting with agencies and then being like, okay, you can put these in the back of your book, but you have to shoot with other photographers like you need other photos, you can’t use these, because they don’t show off your body. They don’t show off your face, you have this extreme makeup, like you have to walk in as a blank slate as a model. And so yeah, top model portfolios are not useful in casting.

Hoja Lopez  32:43

My question to you in terms of like, because we always hear this stuff about like the Edit , and that’s such a huge thing on reality TV, did you feel like you were aside for maybe like some exclusions of what you felt was TV worthy drama of you crying? But did you feel? Or do you know, people who felt like their edit was like, again, the typecast piece? Like how did you feel about your edit? Maybe that’s the question.

Sarah Hartshorne 

I know, a lot of people who definitely felt like their edit was manipulated towards their typecast. And I know a lot of people who straight up feel that their edit was heavily manipulated, because it was, you know, there were moments where they were like, okay, I said that, but I didn’t say that. In that conversation. I did a tic tac about the leading questions that they asked how they don’t tell you to say something they will never say like, can you say this? They just asked you questions to get you to say exactly what they want. I made a TikTok about that. And a reality show producers stitched me and basically went on to explain all of the editing tricks that they use. And it was a little horrified, because she just had this like very pleasant smile on her face. And she’s like, yeah, we really like to get them drunk. And then sometimes if you can just get them to say yes, like, then you can then you know, pull that and it was just like, you’re smiling while you were talking. Like do you understand? It was so bizarre and sort of grim. I personally felt like my edit was okay. There was one moment where I had sort of a disagreement with Lisa. And it was edited weirdly, where I just was like, that’s not how I remember it. But it was also so minor that a I was surprised it was on air. And B, I was like, who cares? You know, like, and she and I are fine. Like I called her at the time and I was like, hey, I’m sorry. Is that how it happened? Because if so I was a dick. And I’m really sorry. And she was like, I don’t really remember. I don’t know, we’re good. And I was like, okay.

Hoja Lopez  34:31

I wonder if they’re incepting memories and like all of a sudden there’s just people walking around who think things about you know how things happen that are just not actually accurate.

Kiki Monique 

Oh, absolutely. Like one of the most amazing things I learned from Spencer Pratt TikTok was the frankensteining of hills where he was like, this conversation and this conversation happened at two completely different times and they’ve mashed it up, did not happen.

Sarah Hartshorne 

Yeah. Jia Tolentino was on a reality show. Like she talks about how she doesn’t remember a lot of the things that made it to air because our brains create stories all the time. And the second we feel like someone else is creating a story. We don’t form memories of it. And that’s so true. I’ve really, I’ve, I’ve only managed to rewatch one episode and I am working on it. But there’s so much that I don’t remember. I like I totally did. There’s some really weird moments that I didn’t remember it all. And then I would watch and I was like, Oh, right. They blindfolded us. They blindfolded us for like two hours. And a second I saw it, then I remembered on it. They blindfolded us on a huge bus going over these windy Puerto Rican roads in San Juan. And like, all the girls just turned green. By the time we took our blindfold off, everyone was so sick. But I totally forgotten that. But like couldn’t if you’d asked me, Did they blindfold you? I’d been like, no, until I saw literal video of it.

Hoja Lopez 

I love that tick tock has allowed us though to see like the background of like all those, like how they produce them, how they ask those questions. It’s really interesting to peek behind the manipulation of that. And I know that like Unreal, the TV series, they did like some heavy investigation into like, how these reality shows were produced. And it was a really, like it felt. Again, it goes back to the exploitative piece and why the hell you need to get paid, if you’re gonna get tortured, essentially. And then after that, they’re gonna edit you to make you look like a pawn. You need more than $40 a day. I’m sorry, $38 a day. Absolutely. This precision is much needed.

Kiki Monique  36:41

I feel like you need to come back one day. And we need to talk about just the other things about reality TV that like are just like the fun parts of it. Because, yeah, I mean, separate from ANTM.

Sarah Hartshorne 

It’s not that it’s not fun. It absolutely is not fun. Like, there were of course, there were lots of fun moments. But the thing about reality TV back then is that they were constantly working to make sure we were slightly on edge. So it’s hard to convey what fun is like when you also are on edge, you know, all the time like 20, you know, from the moment you wake up until the moment you fall asleep. And your sleep is fitful because you’re in a room with 13 other girls who also snore and also there are literally cameras on you while you were sleeping like and you don’t know what time it is.

Kiki Monique 

Or what day it is. Sounds like Vegas.

Sarah Hartshorne

They want to keep you in the casino not knowing. So yeah, it’s not that it’s not fun. It’s just that it is orchestrated to not be fun.

Hoja Lopez 

And adds to the volatility and surely allows them to control things even more. We love it. We hate it. We love to hate it, all of it. Well, thank you so much for being on, this was so much fun again. It was like a pleasure to try to understand your perspective and just get more of the back end of things because it’s so interesting. It’s so interesting.

Kiki Monique  38:05

And can you tell us I mean, I’m obviously I’m going to follow you now can you tell everyone else though, where we can follow you and all of that good stuff.

Sarah Hartshorne 

It’s just my name. It’s @SarahHartshorne, I’m on all the platforms doing just the most getting way too much so of my validation from social media, so thank you. Look, I’m a retired model former reality TV star I got to be honest, you know?

Kiki Monique  38:37

Perfect.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Okay, now it’s time for my favorite segment that we do every week. Sorry, not sorry, where we either apologize to someone or demand an apology and like every week, and we’re gonna start with Oh Ha. So what’s happening this week?

Hoja Lopez 

Yes. So this week, I would like to demand an apology from my good friend. She’ll know who she is. She knows. She already knows. And this apology I need from her because I had a party at my house. And she couldn’t make it to that party. And then later she started calling that party my white people friend party. Because we’re right. Because apparently when I looked back at it, only White people were there. And right and so I couldn’t make it to your White people party and she has been making fun of me non-stop this week for quote having a non-inclusive party at my house that just happened to be online and I do want to disclaim here that she was 100% Right. And I just to give you a few notes on the party, we played board games and drink very pale ale tasting Beer the whole time, and everybody was very quiet and nice. And it was good. And was it great? Who knows? I don’t know. But it was a good party. So that’s all I have to say about that.

Kiki Monique  40:12

I mean, I will say at least you did not have servers who were all non-White, because then that would be the only thing that would have made it worse.

Hoja Lopez 

Right, right. It was a nice party. But she did point it out. And I do I’ll take that note, but also apologize to me.

Kiki Monique 

Nice. Well, I kind of have an apology. That’s like, it’s like a dual apology. Also from a friend. I will name him. His name is Steven.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Yeah, you know who you are.

Kiki Monique 

I mean, he definitely probably owes me more apologies. But I will also apologize back basically, we decided we had a long day, we were gonna go get lunch, we both agreed on Sushi, which was a great way it was quick decision. We didn’t really know the area and where we were gonna get sushi. So he’s looking it up on his phone because I’m driving. And then he finds a place we kind of agreed, like, as long as it’s not in Pasadena. He’s like, I found this place. And then he’s like, like, how do I get there? And we get on the highway. He’s like, yeah, it’s in Pasadena. So already, even though we had agreed wouldn’t be Pasadena, we still end up going to Pasadena. Fine. Because I also knew a sushi spot over there in case the place we get to isn’t great. Yeah, get to their can’t find the place he had picked. So I said, let’s just go to the place. I know. He’s like, I’ll do the order. We’ll do a pickup. Do that on the phone. Wait outside the restaurant. It says you know, ready for pickup? Yeah, go inside of the restaurant. And he comes back empty handed because he has picked the location. That’s in Glendale, which is about 20 minutes away. And now I’m like furious because I’m hungry. I’m hangry. And on top of it, I don’t the two least favorite plates. I want to drive to Pasadena, Glendale, I don’t want to be an either of them. And now I have to go to both of them. And I also don’t like cold soup. And I had ordered miso soup. So anyways, I apologize to him only because I did drive, I think 100 miles per hour. At one point. I got up on the shoulder just to get there as fast as possible. I mean, I don’t blame you. And so maybe scared him to death. But you know what, I don’t like cold soup. So we both owe each other apologies. But he definitely owes me more.

Hoja Lopez  42:26

I feel like every time you say cold soup, I’m really like, I’m like you. Do you mean the Gestapo?

Mohanad Elshieky 

Well, for me, this week, I was in Washington, DC, also known as the Capitol. They have a sign there that says that. And I was like, that’s cool. I didn’t know that. I assumed New York was the capital.

Kiki Monique  42:50

New York is the capital of the world. DC is just the capital of the US.

Mohanad Elshieky

Yeah, that is true. I do agree with that. Yeah. And I was doing, I was doing I did a few shows there in DC. And I remember after one of the shows, this guy comes up to me. And, you know, I talked about on stage about like, being from Libya, and all of that, and he will just go on into this whole thing. You know, just like, you know, wanted to talk geopolitics, which is great. What a great topic to talk about after a comedy set, I was like, yeah, I’m really enjoying my time right now. Do not want to kill myself. But he seemed like he knew too much and was like, you know, talking details with me. And I was like, oh, wow, okay, this guy seems like he knows what he’s talking about. It got to a point where I was like, do you have family there or something like you feel like I feel like, you know, like, very specific details. And then he said, oh, no, my brother works for the US intelligence. And I was just like, oh, like the CIA. And he was like, sort of, and I was like, cool, man. What a waste of my time this was, this could have been a good conversation that you just ruined. I was like, I am good, man. I don’t want to talk anymore. So I’m not sure how I’m asking an apology from here. It’s it is the guy. It’s his brother. Is it a CIA as well? I guess he could apologize to me for wasting my time. I cannot think of anything else that CIA has done wrong. Except this one thing to me personally. So hey, if you want to send me a letter or you apologize to me, I’m pretty sure you know my address. So please, please do or drop it on me while I’m walking. You know, you guys love dropping stuff. It’s so nice to be in DC. And just like, you know, what’s funny about it? You see someone like wearing like a hat that says like the FBI or something. And if you see it in New York or somewhere else, you’re like, Oh, it’s just you know, one of those tech fun has you buy at a store in DC you’re like, are you FBI? Cuz you could be, who knows?

Kiki Monique  44:59

I wish you It stayed in DC because this is the kickoff to the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial, which is like probably the biggest thing happening in DC, keepin on the yeah on the ground boots on the ground pictures.

Mohanad Elshieky

I’ll go back tonight

CREDITS

I’M SORRY is a Lemonada Media Original. The show is produced by Alex McOwen, supervising producer is Kryssy Pease. Our executive producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Our mix is by Kat Yore and theme music was composed by Xander Singh. If you like this show, please rate and review. And please don’t cancel us. You can find out more about our show at @LemonadaMedia on all social platforms, or follow us on Instagram at @imsorry_podcast. We’ll be back next week and until then be nice, play fair and always say I’m sorry. Thanks for listening!