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Description

This week, Hoja, Kiki, and Mohanad say sorry to iconic actress, activist, and sex symbol Pamela Anderson, alongside special guest comedian/writer/actor Caleb Hearon. Together they explore the true story behind Pamela’s sex tape with Tommy Lee, break down some of her most iconic roles, and react to Hulu’s new series Pam & Tommy. Plus, Hoja analyzes Pamela’s birth chart, Caleb speculates which cable channel he’d want his hypothetical sex tape to air on, and Mohanad reveals the true villain of this whole saga (hint: it’s Jay Leno).

Please note, I’m Sorry contains mature themes and may not be appropriate for all listeners.

Follow Caleb Hearon on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @calebsaysthings. Listen to his podcast Keeping Records here: https://headgum.com/keeping-records.

You can find out more about our show @lemonadamedia on all social platforms, or follow us on Instagram @imsorry_podcast.

Need help saying sorry? Got any public apology fodder? Email us at imsorry@lemonadamedia.com or send us a DM on Instagram.

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For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Hoja Lopez, Caleb Hearon, Mohanad Elshieky, Kiki Monique

Kiki Monique  00:08

I’m Kiki Monique. And this is I’M SORRY, a podcast about apologies. And this week, I did not eat a bagel which may surprise a lot of people.

Mohanad Elshieky

Oh, and this is Mohammed and shaky. And this week I’ve heard that Queen Elizabeth has COVID and I would like to report that as misinformation because a dead body cannot have a virus. Please stop lying to us. That woman is dead.

Hoja Lopez 

This is Hoja Lopez. And this week, I finally found a dry rose cider that I’ve been looking for the past four years. And they didn’t sell it anywhere. And I have to keep buying online and I just strolled into a shabby little liquor store five blocks away to my house and guess who found her dry rose cider. You guys, I’m having an ESL moment. Okay. And no, yes, I know I speak English perfectly, but occasionally […].

Kiki Monique 

I’m just curious, because I’ve heard people who have you know, like, who say like English is my second language, that the new Wordle words that I know there’s controversy around if since New York Times has bought it. They’re saying it’s like, even harder for them? I don’t know. Is that true?

Mohanad Elshieky 

I don’t know. I think it’s opposite actually. Because like when you learn English as a second language, you learn some of the words that no one really uses. And I think that actually helps with Wordle and not the opposite.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah, I kind of feel the exact same way. I thought like, there’s also a bunch of words that are normal in Spanish, that when they get translated into English, they seem like kind of rare or weirder here. But we use them pretty normally. Yeah, I would say I completely agree with what you said. I’m sorry, Kiki, reports have been falsified.

Mohanad Elshieky  02:03

Yeah, you’ve been lied to. I’ve been fucking killing it on Wordle.

Hoja Lopez 

Today, we have Caleb here on he is my buddy, a comedian, a writer, an actor. He is currently writing for Netflix, upcoming series Human Resources, and has a super funny, amazing podcast on Head gum called keeping records. And today we are going to be talking about Pamela Denise Anderson.

Kiki Monique 

Yes. Finally, then looking forward to this.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Really excited just watch this show. Can’t wait to get into it.

Hoja Lopez 

Hello, and welcome. Hi, Caleb. I’m so excited to have everybody on. We have a good friend and a great comedian. And I’m so excited, it could be a compliment fest but I’ll hold back.

Caleb Hearon 

Oh, don’t hold back on my behalf.

Hoja Lopez

Okay, now your hat is gorgeous. Your face is sweet. And you Mo and Kiki are pretty cute too.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much.

Hoja Lopez 

I was like shit; I’m going too deep with one I got to really spread this love.

Mohanad Elshieky 

It’s okay.

Hoja Lopez 

Okay, well, I’m so excited about today’s topic, because I feel like I’m again looking back on the 90s and early 2000s with like, where was I and what was I doing at this time? And so whenever a topic comes up that specifically deals with this kind of stuff. I’m like, oh, you piece of shit Hoja, you will right there with everyone else. Making fun of these people thinking these things about these wonderful women. So today we’re gonna talk about Pamela Denise Anderson. What a woman, she was born on July 1, 1967. She’s a cancer check that out. Now I did look at her birth chart. I don’t know if that matters or not. But apparently when your dominant planet is Venus, your main reflex is to please and I do feel like Pammy maybe has a little bit of that inside of her heart. But I don’t know anything about charts or anything of this but what do you guys think is like your dominant trait, like what motivates you, minus like shame and fear. But that’s like for another day. But what do you think are like your main dominating traits, like what drives you?

Kiki Monique  04:35

Probably like revenge and money.

Caleb Hearon 

Vengeance and cash.

Mohanad Elshieky 

I mean, honestly, yeah. I mean, I’m in the entertainment industry so it’s exactly that, I don’t know what else.

Caleb Hearon 

I just this past week for the very first time, I went to a coffee shop in Silver Lake and I got my astrology reading, like my whole chart. I’m here and they’re on whether or not I believe, but I, you know, I it was really interesting and I found out that I have a Scorpio node, north node. Anyway, I’m looking to the future and I need to set boundaries. That’s what we learned. That’s what we learned about me.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah, so we’ve got our motivating factors uncovering a lot of things, but Pamela is amazing. She is the author of three autobiographies, three novels, including one which I read a short excerpt, called Lust For Love, which is about rekindling intimacy and passion. And she wrote it with a rabbi. And she’s contains many things because she’s got a lot going on. She’s a poet. She is an activist. So she was born in British Columbia in Canada, and her dad’s name was Barry, and he is a furnace repairman. And then her mom was a waitress, Carol. Apparently, she grew up being very naturally sporty, earning her the nickname rubber band at school, which I don’t know you guys nicknames are hard in high school that could have gone either. It could have been bad. It could have been good. You know?

Caleb Hearon  06:08

I think I would have liked it. I’ve heard way worse. I’ve heard way worse; rubber bands seems, I’ll take rubber band.

Hoja Lopez

You take rubber band. So basically, she kind of grew up in a pretty idyllic situation. And then she’s hot. So of course, when she’s 22, she ends up going to a Canadian Football League game. And she’s discovered which we talk a lot about being discovered as being a big 90s and early 2000s fantasy for models, hot people in general. Also, me as a fat person. I was always like, this is gonna happen. I just need to walk around very confidently in open areas. But did you guys have any fantasy of being discovered? Like is it just me?

Kiki Monique 

No, all the time, I mean, I think that’s why I still walk around like thinking I’m the main character.

Mohanad Elshieky

I mean, yeah, isn’t that the main like drive? Why everyone like keeps using social media. They’re just like there moment is gonna happen. Somebody will see a tweet and be like, Okay, you should make a show.

Caleb Hearon 

Make a show. I don’t have like entertainment, like delusions or dreams about being discovered. But I have like romantic, like when I go to like the Glendale Galleria and I’m wearing a cute shirt. I’m like, I’m gonna get discovered by my husband today. Like a man is going to take me to the altar today.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah, I choose you. That’s what you want to hear. You want to hear I choose you from a strange man. And then it develops into a full-blown relationship.

Caleb Hearon 

You’re right. You’re damn right. That’s exactly I want.

Hoja Lopez 

And I get that. And Pam Anderson got that many times in her life. I feel like Pam Anderson is somebody who gets chosen a lot in a lot of different ways. But she kind of starts out her sort of career, just doing kind of Playboy covers and appearing on the magazine. So her first cover is in 1989. And she is a person who has been on the cover of Playboy more times than any other human being, I think was a total of 14 times. So she’s sort of a, we’ll call her like the ingenue, the darling of Hugh Hefner. But do you guys have like an idea of what Playboy was for you when you were growing up? Like what was your impression of it? I guess.

Kiki Monique  08:17

I mean, it was just like, yeah, it was something that I like, had to get and secret and look at and that was it.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Yeah, I was a baby. Honestly. You’re talking about stuff now. I’m just like, I mean it. If I knew about Playboy, and like 1997, I was 6 then so that would be, I feel like there would be an issue.

Hoja Lopez 

Everybody’s like, we don’t know about playboy.

Kiki Monique 

I know about it. Y’all may be younger than me, but I know about it. I mean, I still have a playboy in my collection. It’s the cover with Anna Nicole Smith. So like later on in life, I started buying playboys as collectors and purely that because they were getting you know, celebrities that I really adored and Anna Nicole Smith was one of them.

Caleb Hearon 

Like, I mean, God in I guess maybe if anybody was talking about like porn in general in like the early 2000s when I guess boys started talking about porn at my age. I was like Christian vibe. So I would be like, that’s disgusting. I would be like, I’m more Christian than you guys. I’m not interested in that at all. And so I don’t think I really knew what Playboy was, but I think I feel like in our lifetime, they’ve been through a kind of a big shift.

Kiki Monique 

Yeah, and I think we’re gonna see another one with I mean, Cardi B becoming the creative director and I’m excited to see like, what the new sort of like Playboy would be now that like Hef is out of the picture. And we now know like, just how creepy he was from that […] series that’s on right now.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah, the kind of hindsight 2020 on all these things. It’s like kind of how Victoria’s Secret is like completely pivoting. They’re like that was us before this is us now. We no longer do all this crazy shit and it definitely feels like, you know, where’s the safe haven for the pervs and the sexist is what I’m really asking like, where will they go now?

Mohanad Elshieky  10:05

Oh, I’m sure. Yeah, I’m sure they have no place to go.

Kiki Monique 

Hopefully they’ll finally die. They’re like 100 years old. They just never seem to die.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Have you been to comedy clubs recently?

Caleb Hearon 

They’re working. They’re headlining, They’re headlining the chocolate bucket.

Hoja Lopez 

Okay, good. Good. Good. Good. You got it. So her first TV appearance is on a sitcom home improvement. So she’s […] assistant. And I remember her from being on the show. And I just remember her it was kind of like, she would just appear with a tool to give to Tim The Toolman Taylor. And she would just be beautiful. And then people would clap and go […] when she showed up on the screen, and then she would go and that was kind of her main first foray. So she didn’t land to speaking part necessarily. She was just sort of kind of a little bit of an eye candy there at the beginning. And then she goes and gets Baywatch.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Eye candy when Tim Allen was there. Why did they need that?

Hoja Lopez 

They needed a counterbalance to that for sure. But it’s really interesting, because it’s, I mean, it definitely is like she’s getting into jobs, you know, specifically because they want to kind of use her in the way that she lives. And Baywatch in particular is another one of those. Now, you didn’t necessarily know a lot about Playboy, but did you watch Baywatch? Was this in your mindset at all? Is that more timely? Kind of?

Mohanad Elshieky 

No, I was aware of it for sure. Yeah. Like I wasn’t like, oh, I watched every episode that I know every person’s name. I feel like I just knew what it was and just saw clips and stuff like that.

Hoja Lopez 

I was in Venezuela for this. So like I’m going to tell you guys the international fandom is not the same as American fandom. We go crazy. I feel like international fandom is way harder because we have less access to them. So I was a huge Baywatch fan. I still love it.

Mohanad Elshieky  12:10

Because didn’t get didn’t get canceled after season one. And then it got picked up again. Because even though it did not have high ratings in the US, everywhere else, it was just insane.

Caleb Hearon 

What happened? They canceled after season one, season one and then international fans were like what rioting in the streets

Kiki Monique 

Yeah, I think you’ve got like syndication. They were kind of like send it overseas. And then it was like, it blew up over there. And they were like, oh, wait, this is actually working. Let’s try it again. And then they bring Pam Anderson on and then the American audience were like, okay, we’ll pay attention now.

Hoja Lopez

So it was on NBC first and they cancelled it after one season. And then David Hasselhoff they sell the rights to the show to David Hasselhoff for $1, because he David is like, I believe in this fucking show. It’s gonna happen you guys don’t see the vision. And then after a ton of syndication, they also get it kind of financed through a shit ton of product placement. And then the show ends up sticking around for a full decade after that until it sort of like wanes off. But yeah, I remember watching CJ, I remember watching all these characters and truly being obsessed with Mitch Buchanan, the David Hasselhoff which, and this is not something I realized. Looks like my dad now. He looks like my dad. And it’s something that I’ve got to contend with for the rest of my life. Yeah, I was obsessed. Is that too much of a reveal for you guys?

Kiki Monique 

I mean, not too hard. I

Mohanad Elshieky 

I feel like I’m learning a lot about you. And I appreciate that.

Caleb Hearon 

It was too much for me. I felt like I got to know you too much in that moment.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah. Oh, I’ll withdraw a little bit and I’ll start. I’ll be a little cold for now. But yeah, so for me, I loved Baywatch. There was a spinoff of Baywatch nights. Did you hear about this at all? Because this was also my jam.

Kiki Monique 

Heard about it, didn’t watch that.

Hoja Lopez  14:02

There were two seasons. Season one. Great, just kind of Baywatch at night, people still drowning, people still getting saved. Then season two became a vampire hunting show. Starring Mitch Buchanan. This is a real it just became a paranormal show.

Kiki Monique 

That’s absolutely ridiculous.

Mohanad Elshieky 

No, I’m gonna look that up. I want to see like what, like were they finding them like by the sea? Was that the idea?

Hoja Lopez 

I mean, at some point, Mitch Buchanan he was wearing a cape and running through a haunted house. I’m not even joking. I’m not joking. You’ve got to go see it on YouTube. There’s like a couple clips that I watched. It’s bizarre. America is a strange place. To go back to our number one girl Pammy. So she is in the middle of Baywatch. And of course, she’s getting like all this attention. So she is kind of aligned and seen with Dean Cain with Sylvester Stallone with Scott Baio. And then finally, it’s her marriage to Tommy Lee, that sort of makes the biggest headlines. By the way. I heard that Scott.

Caleb Hearon 

I’m laughing at him. I’m laughing at the idea of this man.

Kiki Monique 

Like, he doesn’t deserve correct pronunciation, continue on.

Hoja Lopez 

That was a slight and I did it on purpose really get him off balance you know? It is pretty crazy to me that she’s establishing type like, to me this is a pattern of a human being. And so when I was reading this, I was like, I wonder if Mo and Kiki and Caleb have types? Like what is? Because clearly she goes for like, clearly she goes for like these crazy dudes. And I’m just curious if you guys find yourself repeatedly dating the same person with the same face over and over again.

Kiki Monique  16:21

I don’t know if I said repeatedly date. But like, I think that if there is a specific guy I get, a lot of people know that I’m going to be into him. And like, not all of them look the same. But like, there’s groups of certain types of men, and they all fit into certain types of groups, and people know who my groups are. And so, yeah.

Hoja Lopez 

Kiki, you have managed to say nothing.

Caleb Hearon

No, I understood, I knew exactly what Kiki meant. Because mine is an energy, mine can be, it doesn’t matter how you look. But as long as you’re aloof and probably not into me. I am totally there for the long haul.

Hoja Lopez 

Oh my god. Yeah. I know you’re in the Chet Hanks. So I’m imagining that’s […]

Kiki Monique 

Look, I have a type of like, I have a type of white boy. There’s different types of White boys. But like, you know, a lot of times they’re bald, a lot of times they have tattoos. A lot of times they fit into certain, you know, but I also love a surfer. That’s the thing, like, they might not all look the same. But a lot of the same guys fit into specific groups. And it’s usually bald tattoo though is like where I’m going.

Caleb Hearon 

Chet Hanks, when he was here’s what I’ll say about Chet Hanks. When he was three minutes into his 15 minutes of fame. He could have gotten it from a lot of people. And then we heard too much from him over the past year. And now I feel like it’s gone. It’s over.

Kiki Monique 

Once he started saying that he didn’t grow up with a positive male role model. I was kind of like, you can’t dunk on Tom.

Mohanad Elshieky  18:02

What an insane thing to say, that exactly, I’m like, okay, we had one happens to be your dad.

Kiki Monique

So, when we found out he had COVID, because we thought he was gonna die.

Mohanad Elshieky

I’m like, no, that’s your problem, buddy.

Hoja Lopez 

What about you Mo? Do you have a type?

Mohanad Elshieky 

Well, I’ve been with the same person for four years. So I would say, yeah. Her name is Rosie Sherman.

Caleb Hearon 

I have a type and it’s my girlfriend. Nice try.

Hoja Lopez 

No more gotcha questions here. Okay. Okay. So obviously, Pam is dating a series of, you know, tattooed dickheads. I am going to just describe him like that. But Tommy Lee in particular. So this is kind of where we start in my mind, losing it, like fully losing it with Pam and Tommy and they were married from 1995 to 1998. So it’s a short and sweet marriage. And we’ll talk about more about kind of their relationship but she’s also married to Kid Rock and that relationship lasted less than a year, she married Rick Solomon, from October of ’07 to March of ’08 and then again, from 2014 like the beginning of 2014 to the beginning of 2015. And then more recently, she married her bodyguard Dan Hayhurst, so I mean, there is something about, she believes in true love now she believes that this is the next one that’s gonna work and that I mean that’s there’s something admirable about believing and it’s still.

Kiki Monique 

Well, I think that she was a hopeless romantic and I think you know, Tommy Lee has always said he is a hopeless romantic so I think like, it made sense that the two of them together just like yeah, found each other.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Yeah, I mean, I’ve only knew them like from now watching the TV show slash documentary. Like, it just seemed like they loved each other’s energy, which was very high at all times.

Caleb Hearon  20:07

Yes. A mutual love bombing. Yeah. So high octane, high intensity, it was meant to shine bright and fast. Three years is a short marriage, but she’s had shorter ones since then. Which is? Yeah, I don’t know why the marriages, I’ve never understood that when people get married really quick. I’m like, why not just have fun, keep it fun.

Kiki Monique 

Well, and even I mean, Tommy Lee’s first marriage was seven days. So I share a lot of these things.

Mohanad Elshieky 

And they also married four days into dating, too.

Caleb Hearon 

Massive, actually, that part I get.

Kiki Monique 

I think that was like a combination of like, you know, they were into each other. But also she was being fed ecstasy unknowingly, for the entirety of the vacation. So I think everything feels like love. You know, if you’re just taking ecstasy for four days straight.

Hoja Lopez 

I don’t know about that life. Like, one time I ate one extra weed brownie and literally thought I was a character in The Lord of the Rings for four hours and decided to never do that again in my life.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Is that good or bad? I’m just trying to figure that out. It wasn’t good. I

Hoja Lopez 

It wasn’t good. I thought I was being swallowed by a river of horses. And at some point, I started describing my tongue as a dolphin stuck in an elevator. And these are things my friends still quoted me and I can’t do drugs. I’m gonna tell you all right now. Offer them to me. I will swap them out of your hand. But they, a full marriage proposal and a full like relationship based off of ecstasy. I don’t know. These people are too fun.

Kiki Monique 

Well, Pamela didn’t want to be. I mean, let’s get it clear. Pamela does not do drugs. She did not want to be on drugs. According to like this is in Tommy Lee’s own like memoir. Like they were in like she said, they were drinking champagne. And she found out that one of his friends was like cracking ecstasy and putting it into her drinks. So it was like not like a cool thing at all. But like, also probably like, why did they get back to California? And she’s like, things feel different now?

Caleb Hearon  22:03

Something’s off. I don’t know, things aren’t firing the way they were on the island.

Hoja Lopez 

And so this relationship with Tommy Lee sets off just this insanity, basically, which is kind of taking us a little bit to kind of current day. So I know she has her kind of long-term relationships with Rick Salomon, which again, they married twice. That’s another phenomena that I do not understand. Which is getting married, divorcing a whole human being and then marrying that person again, get back

Caleb Hearon 

together. Sure. But to do the whole paperwork thing of it again, is like ah, I don’t know about that.

Mohanad Elshieky

Yeah. Did he think that in order to be with someone the government has to approve it? Because I feel like that’s what’s happening here. I’m like, just hang.

Caleb Hearon 

No, yeah, just hang out.

Hoja Lopez 

Just hang out, guys. Yeah, the joint bank account, the full shebang where you’re writing your name in the stone. I don’t think that’s a good idea.

Kiki Monique 

I’m all about the goal […] Kurt Russell plan. They have gotten it right. Like just to what they do.

Caleb Hearon 

That’s punk. That’s real punk rock. We’re gonna be together for 78,000 years.

Kiki Monique 

I’m gonna call you my boyfriend.

Hoja Lopez 

Keep it like keep it hot. But the series, so Pam and Tommy the series is such an interesting depiction. And I mean, this is not when I think of the show, I think of a lot of different things. But to talk about specifically kind of why the series gets greenlit and kind of the timing of it is we’ve been talking about Courtney Stodden, about Chrissy Teigen. We’ve been talking about Monica Lewinsky we’ve been talking about, you know, this kind of depiction of women in the 90s and early 2000s. And so, as soon as I knew that this show was being greenlit, I was like, oh, fuck, what did I do to Pamela Anderson, because I genuinely, I think I felt the same way that everybody else felt when all this stuff was coming out. But basically, the series is about Pam and Tommy. And they developed a series kind of without necessarily her participation or permission, but they optioned the rights to an article published by Rolling Stone in 2014, which basically is the story of a disgruntled contractor working on their house and how this person kind of stole a safe from their garage that contained this private sex tape and then released it really at the kind of beginnings of the internet without their consent, which is an incredible story, but have you guys seen the show? Like what are your impressions of that story in particular?

Mohanad Elshieky  24:31

I’ve watched the first like three episodes, so far. I mean, again, had no idea about any of this shit. I thought Tommy Lee was an insane person. Like the second he said that he asked the construction workers that he wants say, a waterbed and I was like this man is a villain, like what are you doing? But I like the story of like, how, I mean, I knew about the sex date, but I didn’t know how it got out. I had no idea it was stolen. And, you know, it’s obviously bad it happened. But literally, he just kept construction workers out of $20,000 and would not even let them get their kit back from him. And that’s what started this whole thing because they came in to seal the safe to get their money back, basically. And then they just happen to find the tape.

Caleb Hearon 

Yeah, I thought I mean, I’ve seen bits and pieces of it. But I haven’t watched the whole thing yet. But the parts of it I have seen I agree with Mo, I didn’t know how the tape came out ever. Like I didn’t remember that part of it. All I remember is that Pamela Anderson had a sex tape. And that’s, I think, also very telling, because that’s how it’s always described as like, it’s never Tommy Lee’s sex tape. It’s always Pam Anderson sex tape. And I think that I mean, there’s a lot to say about the ways that, you know, women are expected to be like garters of their sexuality, and men are allowed to do whatever they want. But like the story of how it got out I think is fascinating and also like, the way that this sex tape got out against both of their consent but particularly Pam’s is that he decided to fuck over some contractors. And so this dude wanted to fuck him over by putting this tape out. Like she’s so far removed from it and still gets so slided in this whole thing that it’s like, yeah, I think it’s a really, really cool story.

Kiki Monique  26:18

I mean, I think it’s interesting how, you know, we’re like giving light to stories, when people who were the bad guys were now able to, like, say, like, well, let’s look at it from their perspective. Like, I think that’s happening a lot with like, retelling of stories. I mean, in this particular case, yes. I think that this guy, you know, Tommy Lee probably treated him like shit. And so he decided to screw him over. But I don’t know, if I’m still not gonna, like, act like, Tommy deserve this in any way. Cuz it was like, it was really, it still is like super slimy and super fucked up. The grossest part of it all was just like, sort of like, you know, as it’s coming out, you know, Pam is, is getting the brunt of it. And on top of it, people are kind of like, even Tommy, I think, you know, says it in the series. It’s like, well, everyone’s seen it. Everyone’s seen it. And that’s the part that sticks out to me. It’s like, it’s not like you haven’t been naked before. You’ve been on Playboy all of this. And it’s like, but that’s not the fucking point. Like, I don’t care if I have my tits on a billboard, you know, on Sunset. Like, you don’t get to, like, see anything that’s not authorized. And I think that’s the part that really disturbs me.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Exactly, yeah. And that, I mean, that was the part that like, you know, the whole trial was about because they were just like, okay, you’re showing yourself out. So why is this different? And, I mean, she talked about herself, she was like, I’m just stuck with these, like, old white dudes who were just asking me about my sexuality. So I just stopped showing up at court. And then the judge was just like, well, your body is a, basically a public image, so the tape can be released. And it’s such an insane thing to say to someone.

Mohanad Elshieky 

that also has an insane line of logic, because I feel like even with the amount of like body stuff I’ve had to work through in my life, I would post a naked picture of my full body online for the entire world to see every single day before I would let like even one person hear the things I say during sex. That is so humiliating the things that you say during sex and do and like then like, oh, like, I don’t know, that’s just such an insane line of logic. I don’t know how you couldn’t hear that and go like, oh, no, it’s obviously so different.

Mohanad Elshieky  28:27

Yeah, it’s you know, it’s just fucking insane. And also, I don’t know, while watching it when that man just like, decided to put the tape out. My first thought was like, have you heard about like, blackmail? Just like, tell them that you have the tape and have them pay you money instead? It’s way better than doing so because I know that he didn’t end up going to jail or anything for it, which is I was like, okay, can you not sue someone for stealing from you? Which is, I guess you can do in the 90s. But also, by putting the tape out, did you not think they’re gonna wonder who put it out? And that will come back to you? And like, I don’t know, what’s the logic here?

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah, I’m not sure. But all that to say that all these like court cases, it’s like they’re just so leaning in the direction of like, the men don’t have the responsibility. And she just has to deal with the consequences of everybody else’s decisions, which is, I think, becoming clear in the show, too. And I mean, when I was looking at just facts about the show, I mean, at this point, the tape took two years to go from a bootleg tape to what they considered viral. So just comparing it to what it takes for somebody to go viral now, but and then it ended up making an estimated $77 million in less than 12 months. And that’s just on the legitimate sales like that’s just on the sales after this court case occurred. And they were actually to make like, able to make legal money off of it. So it’s just, it was massive. And I think that we don’t necessarily put like a money quantity on viral videos that we see now. I mean, they do I’m sure get paid, but I don’t know, like, […]

Caleb Hearon  30:08

No, not at all. It’s like you can you can maybe get ads from your account, but a video itself? Yeah, no,

Hoja Lopez 

it’s like, the internet has made everything bigger and then much less valuable. And now I think the acceleration of that, but it was really interesting to look at those numbers and just compare them to what, like content like this would look like today. Like it’s just a completely different physical and like a completely different cultural set.

Kiki Monique 

Well, I think that’s what’s like the kind of the most embarrassing part of like, not the most embarrassing part, but like, just how nobody thought that the internet was like going to take off. So like, even when the courts are looking at like the fact that it was like on the internet, it’s kind of just like, oh, like big deal. And even when they you know, eventually decided to settle, you know, and said, okay, we’ll assign our rights to this video just to like, make all these court cases go away, because clearly, we can’t stop this tape. And clearly, nobody is like, even giving us any judgments for anything, we have to do something. So they said they sold the rights just for it to be online. And it’s just kind of like, just for it to be online. Like, we didn’t care about the internet, we thought like, it’ll be on some weird website, and nobody will ever see it, you know,

Mohanad Elshieky 

is it because in their minds TV was King, you know, they were like, it’s on NBC, no one’s gonna see it.

Caleb Hearon 

And now your news got put out in a zine or something.

Mohanad Elshieky 

I feel like now if your sex tape comes out, you have to beg, they’re like, please put it on cable, like no one will see it there

Caleb Hearon

I’m putting my sex tape out on MSNBC in the day.

Kiki Monique  32:07

You know, what’s so crazy is I was talking to my friend, you know, she got married in Miami. And so like, a few years later, like in 2013, she went back to Miami, you know, just as like a renewal thing. And she was staying at the Mondrian. And this was in April of 2013. And on the cable channel, you could purchase the Kim Kardashian sex tape, Jesus, wow, in 2013, how insane is that? And it also was just kind of like, you see, you never know also, like, Okay, did that end up on the Mondrian hotel, because she ended up having to sign her rights and those rights ended up selling it to some license or, you know, like they license it. You know, what she aware of this license? That hasn’t even been 10 years ago.

Mohanad Elshieky 

I’m just trying to imagine you being in a hotel room just like you know, putting yourself to get just like, just like sitting on bed and just being like, it’s time. The time has come.

Caleb Hearon 

Well, Kiki, what you were saying also made me think of like, an important part that I didn’t understand this until I started like, working in entertainment. Okay, the production company that made this is Seth Rogen’s production company, right? So the way that they’re going to tell this story is inherently from a place of, and I personally like the way they told the story, but the way they’re going to tell it is centering Seth, a role something for Seth, right? So like, do we get a different version of this story? Because now this is the definitive story of the Pam and Tommy sex tape, at least for a while, right? Because it’s this huge, big budget thing that […] did. There’s ads everywhere. But if Margot Robbie’s production company buys it for her to play Pam, do we get an entirely different story? Yeah, probably, you know what I mean? So it’s like, who buys what has a very important role in like, the ways that the stories get presented? And I think that’s really fascinating, and not something I understood until like, very recently.

Mohanad Elshieky  34:05

That’s very interesting.

Kiki Monique 

Yeah. It’s such a good point. And then the sad part is, is like, Pam wants nothing to do with this story anymore. She is so over it. You know, she went offline back in January 2021. She doesn’t even want to be on social media. And so the fact that, you know, Lily, James reached out to her to, you know, she wanted to play Pam the best she could and, you know, Pam never responded. And, you know, that’s her right? Because she didn’t even understand how this was getting made without her approval. And I just have to imagine how traumatizing that is, as somebody who just spent years having something go around the globe that she did not approve. And now there’s a story being told, you know, I think she is getting shown in a light that is giving people will have empathy for her that probably didn’t before and, you know, but like, at the end of the day, she just doesn’t want, she doesn’t want to tell the story anymore. She doesn’t want anything to do with it.

Mohanad Elshieky 

She’s like, I’m not interested into like changing the culture was just like, leave me alone.

Hoja Lopez

I don’t know how I feel about it. Like, how do you guys feel about the piece of consent like I’m, I’m like, the worst parts of me are like, I like the show, I want to watch it. This is public story; we should all be able to consume it. And I agree, Caleb, I do really like how they told the story as well. I think it’s a fair assessment. But how do you guys feel about it?

Mohanad Elshieky 

I honestly feel like the person, the story is being told about the most should have, you know, should participate in the story, like, for example, how Monica Lewinsky is doing the like season three of American Crime Story, telling her story. So like, you know, you get her perspective, she has to prove stuff, it’s still a very painful story. But it’s her story to tell. But just to be like, well, we bought the rights to your life. And now we’re just going to show them on TV. I don’t think I would like that. I feel like especially if it’s something very like somebody part of my life, that was like embarrassing, and I hate it.

Kiki Monique  36:02

And like what, you know, I always think about this, like on Instagram, right? And you want to like, you know, get verified, or you want to have a bigger account. So you choose, like public figure, right? Like, I think I selected public figure. But I was like, did I just like sign up for like, not that anyone wants to read a story about me but did I just give away my rights if somebody that from my past who hated me wanted to tell a story about me, can the court say well, you made yourself a public figure. So now you it’s a free for all. Like, I don’t know, like, when do you cross over into that territory where anybody can tell a story about you. Because you’re basically public property.

Caleb Hearon

I think a lot of people, like people who have anybody who does like performance or like public, like, you know, makes videos on the internet or stand up or whatever. Anybody who has some kind of like public persona, whether it’s big or small, will have a very, like unique and kind of niche take on what it means to be in the public or be are set your account to public figure or whatever. But I think a lot of people probably look at that and go, you want it to be a public figure when you were making millions and millions and millions of dollars by just showing up somewhere. And then you don’t want it’s time to talk about what the results of that were. And I don’t think that’s a correct view on that. But I think a lot of people don’t understand the ways that you feel like you lose yourself to your public figure. If you’re somebody like Pam Anderson probably does. I feel like she probably feels like now her name has become this big narrative and not just actually a literal person named Pam. You know what I mean?

Mohanad Elshieky 

Absolutely, 100. Yeah, usually, you literally become a concept.

Caleb Hearon 

You’re an idea.

Mohanad Elshieky 

I would say that though. This is you know, a separate thing. But like, one thing I liked is from that show, and also American crime story is that they all have had a common villain. And that being Jay Leno, yes, destroy this man. Oh, my God. He was like, literally, I’m like, why are you bullying? Like these, like very young women? Like you were an old man then as well. Just coming after these babies. And I’m just like, and Hoja, like you talk to us about like this clip or like, Pam Anderson is just being like, which will we play which she says? No, this fucking sexist. It’s not funny. Stop making these jokes. I don’t like them.

Hoja Lopez  38:29

She’s pretty candid in it. I guess for you guys to listen to it because she basically kind of just calls out a friend on national television or somebody that she considered a friend. But yeah, let’s definitely go to that clip. So yeah, it’s a really interesting, like dynamic of her being, like something that I’ve read really about Pam is that she’s not like the wilted flower like oh, what’s it called? A Wilted Violet? A shrinking violet. Oh, quick. Okay, I arrived but it took me, I never really, I think the show is sort of like is very strongly kind of planting her as somebody who doesn’t necessarily have a say, but it seems like in her real life, she has had to say, and so I really enjoy the interaction between her and Jay and her actually just bringing it up.

Kiki Monique  40:05

Can we also say that this is why I think that Arsenio Hall does not get enough flowers like he was the best nighttime talk show host ever the most least problematic talk show hosts and he did not have a long enough career and we let these like creepy crawly dudes just be all gross for decades.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah. Well, all that to say, this is a podcast about apology. So we do get around to apologies eventually. But what I mean, I feel like A, we should all apologize to Pamela Anderson for how we treated her. When this came out. I mean that that scene where she walked into a place where there were a lot of men watching her sex tape, like out in public is a real thing that happened. And that seems horrifying. Like I can’t even imagine being that situation but apologies are owed, who owes who an apology.

Kiki Monique 

I’m going to take the like Mohanad route. And I’m going to say that I’m holier than thou in this situation, because I did not watch that sex tape. Like, even at the time, I just felt like this is gross. I don’t want any parts of this. And I just like I never wanted to watch anybody sex tape. I always thought it was like fucked up.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Yeah, cuz there was no consent involved. Like in the sex maybe? Yes. But like, not in the watching. It is just so weird, you know? And also just like, Hoja saying like it that made like $77 million or so I’m just like, what a bunch of fucking psychos. Like, I guess everyone went to that hotel in Miami and just watched it.

Caleb Hearon

Here’s what I will say. I think I was two months old when the tape came out. I did not think anything of Pam, but here’s what I will say. On behalf of all men. I’m so sorry. I’m sorry. I think yeah, we all should just collectively say sorry. We’re all complicit. And I think Mohanad was right that we need to rally against Jay Leno. Oh, that’s the ultimate.

Mohanad Elshieky  42:11

I’m gonna I’m gonna go find him. He’s headlining flappers or whatever.

Caleb Hearon 

I’ll go find them and do nothing. Just for the record.

Hoja Lopez 

Well, Caleb, thank you so much for coming on. What a blast. Bye, honey.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Okay, now it’s time for my favorite segment. Sorry, not sorry, where we either accept or demand someone to give us an apology or we apologize to someone. We’re gonna start with Hoja, what’s happening this week?

Hoja Lopez 

Well, I went to Old Town Ale House. It’s across the street from Second City last night. And if I tell you that the single most ancient man in America would not stop hitting on me. I can’t express to you the age that this man was, if I don’t think I was wrong and saying 85, maybe more. And maybe he just doesn’t look that great anymore. For many reasons. People’s lives can be hard and it can age them. I do think pain and trauma shows on your face sometimes. But he, I mean, he at one point expressed, he expressed concern for which is this is the second time that’s happened to me in my life. Is concerned for my lower back due to the size of my breasts. This happened last night. So I just would like to demand an apology from ancient man and say […], we live in polite society. This may not be fucking Bridgerton Victorian area, but maybe don’t approach a lady of reputable background at midnight for some hanky panky. You know what I mean?

Kiki Monique  44:04

I mean, I will admit that my first instinct probably would have been to figure out if he was rich. I’m not gonna lie. I have a bit of Anna Nicole Smith still in me. Before I just write off this old man. Can you pay for something maybe? Just check it out.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Well, hey, man, I’m sure you’re listening. So you know better DM us on Instagram.

Hoja Lopez 

I don’t know if he can. It would really surprise me if he’s on Instagram. But I don’t know.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Use pigeon to send us an apology, Kiki what’s happening with you?

Kiki Monique 

You know, I discovered this new sub place. I don’t think it’s a new it’s new to me. It’s called Jersey Mike’s subs. And okay, they probably have them on the east coast, but I didn’t really start noticing them. Okay. I didn’t start noticing them until I got to LA. And I don’t know like normally I like chains, I do like chains but normally random chains I don’t really go for but I think I was just feeling this like East Coast vibe from it and wanting like an East Coast sandwich and so I was like, let me check this place out anyways turns out it’s really good, actually delicious sub, love it. So every once in a while, you know when I want lunch I’m like, let me, I’m in the mood for a big old sub. Let me go there. So I will do a pre-order like usually through like DoorDash or something. And I always want the combo obviously I want some chips with my sub and a drink. And so they have different chip options. And so this time I wanted Cheetos. And then I get home and it was Flaming Hot Cheetos and I am not a Flaming Hot Cheetos person. And I was just like, that’s weird. It just said Cheetos on the site. Well maybe was just an oversight. Went back again. was like I’m not going to tempt the Cheetos in case all of them are flaming hot. I’m going to do just Cool Ranch Doritos, you know, classic. Good. Get home. I didn’t even know they made a flaming hot Cool Ranch Doritos because it actually feels like it doesn’t make sense. I mean, if I want Cool Ranch, why would I want it to be flaming hot? And I just started wondering like, do they see my name and just think that I want flaming hot. That’s just like, I just wanted a regular old coverage. I didn’t ask for a flaming hot. So I don’t know who’s gonna I don’t know if this is like a DoorDash thing and they’re not advertising that only flaming hot. It’s available at the store. I don’t know if this is a Jersey […] Someone on the other end is reading my name and like yeah, she definitely wants flaming hot. I don’t know. But somebody owes me an apology because I’ve not been able to eat my chips for you know, two times.

Hoja Lopez  46:54

So you feel like you’re being named, profiled and sent like a stereotypical hot sauce basically, based on your name. Mike Johnson subs or whatever. I cannot remember what it was called. Mike Johnson subs, you should be ashamed of yourself. DoorDash, Uber? I can’t remember the specific details of the story you just told. But it’s egregious.

Mohanad Elshieky

Well, I don’t. I’m not asking for any apologies from ancient men or sandwiches. But I’d say I mean, see, I’m not asking for an apology from a specific person. But I’m gonna say whoever is behind love is blind. And the casting of love is blind. I need this person, like, alive or dead. It does not matter. I feel like love is blind is funded by the oil industry. Because every time I watch it, and I’m just like, okay, yes. You know what? We need climate change. Bring it fast and quick. Every time I watch that show, I’m just like, these people deserve climate change to happen to them.

Hoja Lopez  48:03

Flood the coastal elites, like California on fire.

Mohanad Elshieky 

It makes me think like, how did these people survive COVID, how were these people were the ones who survived this pandemic, like some of the dumbest people alive.

Kiki Monique

Can I say the fun one of the funniest tweets I saw was about Shana, who, you know, and someone said, Has anyone asked Shana where her family was on January 6th.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Like everything about that woman is insane to me. Or that guy Shake? That man belongs in jail. Like I don’t know why we have him on the show.

Kiki Monique 

Yeah, like you can’t skirt. The, you know, the whole point is like, we’re not supposed to know what people look like. And you can’t skirt that by saying things like when I go to concerts, I love to have women on my shoulders. Do you think I’d be able to pick you up? Like, come on dude. Really?

Mohanad Elshieky 

Like bro, what you need to do is go to a gym if that’s just want shoulder exercise. I’m not sure what to tell you. Me. Also, maybe you have soft shoulders and you literally cannot carry anyone, that’s on you.

Hoja Lopez 

Soft sort of like, palate shoulders, like cartilage shoulders.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Like how much can you live there, we talking 100 pounds. Is that all you can do? Because then I don’t know what to tell you buddy.

Hoja Lopez 

Which objectively 100 pounds is quite a bit you guys.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Yah, everything about that man. Everything about that show. Truly I have no idea where they find these people or what they put in the advertisement asking like, send us the worst people alive or so. Anyway. Apologies needed.

CREDITS

I’M SORRY is a Lemonada Media Original. The show is produced by Alex McOwen, supervising producer is Kryssy Pease. Our executive producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Our mix is by Kat Yore and theme music was composed by Xander Singh. If you like this show, please rate and review. And please don’t cancel us. You can find out more about our show at @LemonadaMedia on all social platforms, or follow us on Instagram at @imsorry_podcast. We’ll be back next week and until then be nice, play fair and always say I’m sorry. Thanks for listening!