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Which comedy TV show is better: Wild ‘N Out or Def Comedy Jam? Writer and performer Carma Anderson and storyteller and director Jameer Pond return for their winner-takes-all third debate. Jameer says Wild ‘N Out is a comedic institution that is more wide-ranging and versatile than Def Comedy Jam. Carma argues the superstars that came out of Def Comedy Jam have profoundly impacted culture and influenced generations of comedians – including Jameer and herself. How will Ronald Young Jr. rule in the battle between two influential comedic TV shows?

Follow Carma @goodcarmawon on Instagram and Jameer @jameerpond on Instagram and Twitter.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Carma Anderson, Jameer Pond, Ronald young Jr.

Ronald young Jr.  00:00

Welcome back to PCDC. I’m your host, Ronald Young Jr. Let’s meet our panelists for the day. Representing “Def Comedy Jam” is writer and performer at New York City’s, Second City. Hello and welcome back, Carma Anderson.

 

Carma Anderson  01:53

Hey guys.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:55

Also joining us. Representing “Wild ‘N Out” is a writer, producer and the creative video director for VanityFair. Let’s welcome back, Jameer Pond.

 

Jameer Pond  02:04

Ronaldo, it’s good to be back.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:09

I was just talking to y’all off air, just saying how nervous I get the best ways when y’all are on this show.

 

Jameer Pond  02:16

Game here.

 

Carma Anderson  02:18

It’s a competitive.

 

Jameer Pond  02:19

It’s a competitive game.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:22

Today is the rubber match between you two. We had Seinfeld vs Curb Your Enthusiasm. And Jameer, you won that one by picking Seinfeld, I should say. Carma, we had SNL vs In Living Color, and you picked SNL – SNL won that one. So, the battle is 1-1. How do y’all feel?

 

Carma Anderson  02:42

I hope we’re friends after this.

 

Jameer Pond  02:43

I feel confident. I feel blessed to be here – to have this opportunity, to drop gems about wilding out, excited.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:55

I love this. With all of that being said, Are y’all ready to fight?

 

Carma Anderson  03:00

Yes.

 

Jameer Pond  03:01

I’m ready.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:02

Okay, we will start with Carma. Carma, present your case. Why is Def Comedy Jam the better comedy show?

 

Carma Anderson  03:13

So, Def Comedy Jam is a better comedy show. Just sheer authenticity, you know exactly what you’re getting. It’s not planned, it’s raw – maybe sometimes too raw, but it does replicate what the black experience in people’s households. It brought it to the forefront of a lot of places and a lot of venues that may not have had that experience for that type of comedy. The superstars that came out of Def Comedy Jam have contributed to all parts of the culture that have influenced generations after them and continue to do it. They’re the prototype for a lot of people like Jameer and myself to continue and do what we do.

 

Ronald young Jr.  04:01

Carma, before I go to Jameer, can you just give me a quick primer? What is Def Comedy Jam for people especially for listeners who completely missed this phenomenon?

 

Carma Anderson  04:11

Okay. Def Comedy Jam, (I don’t know if I want to talk about who created it). You know, he’s a little hot water, but Def Comedy Jam essentially was a show created by Russell Simmons to bring black comics tothe forefront. Similar to what we talked about before, a lot of comedy shows were not showcasing a lot of black comedians, and they were falling under the radar or being put into small parts. It was basically a show that there’s a lot of talent of young black comedians. These are the people that you’re going to see, and it’s responsible for the big comedic explosion that happened in 90s, preferably and solely with black actors and actresses.

 

Ronald young Jr.  04:52

Okay, great. I love that primer. Great opening argument. Jameer, give me your opening argument why Wild ‘N Out is better than Def Comedy Jam. And quick primer on what Wild ‘N Out is, for listeners who don’t know what that is.

 

Jameer Pond  04:52

Okay. Wild ‘N Out is a comedic variety show that has been on air, I think specifically now it’s on paramount. It goes from my MTV to VH1 to MTV2, but it’s been on air consistently for about like 20 years.At this point, it’s a comedic institution. It’s a variety show where not only young comedians, but musicians and cultural figures come together. They participate in games, sing alongs, and rap battles and in comedy, they used to do sketch. It’s live comedy, it’s live variety. That’s the primer of Wild ‘N Out. Now, my argument of Wild ‘N Out is better because when we say comedy, we’re not specifically talking about one specific aspect of comedy. We’re talking about in totality. I think overall, Wild N’ Out is a better comedy show, because it gives you a wide range of comedy. It’s just not stand up. Don’t get me wrong, love Def Comedy Jam. Shout out to Def Comedy Jam. What its influence? I was a different beast.If you’re putting it up, it’s not only more upgraded, it’s just more versatile. As black entertainers andcreatives, I always hear people speaking about non-monolithic viewpoints of black people. So, I think Wild ‘N Out is just a better show, overall and it stands the test of time. They still got new episodes out today. They still filming across the country – doing live shows and arenas and it’s generationally popular.We’re gonna get more into the people that have coming out because I think Def Comedy Jam was a pillar for those comedians at that time. But undoubtedly, Wild ‘N Out took the torch and propelledit to some place different in terms of comedians now.

 

Ronald young Jr.  07:02

I really love that each and every argument that I’ve done with both of y’all has been kind of the same, where we’ve been dealing with the one show starting and the next show kind of building on the previous show. We’re pitting them against each other, which is very interesting. Carma, Jameer pointed out something about the idea that Def Comedy Jam is stand up comedy, whereas you get more of the full breadth of more improve comedy, more diverse comedy, stylings in Wild ‘N Out – you are an improper. Talk to me a little bit about the difference and what makes Def Comedy Jam better? Because I think even you yourself would probably be on Wild ‘N Out today, right? Not even would be, you could be on Wild ‘N Out in the future.

 

Carma Anderson  07:44

It is ironic that I’d be on the side of Def Comedy Jam, as an improviser. I have done stand up. Jameer has done stand up. It is a very precarious art and even as an improviser, it is difficult. But, I think being able to be a stand up comedian is a whole different level of difficulty and the vulnerability that you have to share. I don’t say it’s easier, but I do think as an improviser, you are being character. You are obviously yourself, but you are able to hide behind suggestions, gimmicks, things that you have so sometimes it makes it easier. When you are a stand up comedian, the better ones are the ones that are able to be vulnerable – to laugh at themselves, to be not scared, to make that off the cuff comment. I would also say that Wild ‘N Out there’s a level of it that’s scripted. You’re guaranteed to get a laugh because you’re playing it safe. And that’s been the criticism of many about Wild ‘N Out, it has become a little stale.  While people do enjoy those things, doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re great. They may be good, but are they great?

 

Ronald young Jr.  09:11

Jameer, I’m gonna let you jump right in. You had a face.

 

Jameer Pond  09:13

Okay. You said stale and crazy because it’s still alive and breathing and continuously, gets a chance to be picked up this seasons. Well, let me tell you something about Def Comedy Jam. They took it in the back of the house and they shot it like, “Oh, it’s no longer here. It doesn’t exist. It got pushed off. We’regonna keep it a buck. Let’s just keep it all the way a buck”. After Martin Lawrence left Def Comedy Jam, people started tuning out. That’s a fact. People were there for Martin. People were there for thecomedy, but it was the whole show. Martin leaving Def Comedy Jam in the second season I believe, correct me if I’m wrong. Changed the element of the entire show.

 

Ronald young Jr.  09:59

To be clear, Martin Lawrence was the host of Def Comedy Jam comedy.

 

Jameer Pond  10:03

Yes, the first host and then Joe Torre continued.

 

Carma Anderson  10:06

That’s correct continued after.

 

Jameer Pond  10:08

Chris Rock. It was that season at the end with Ed Lover, we got to talk about that too where not popping. But, when you think about something like Wild ‘N Out, you think about consistency. You think about refreshing and opening a revolving door for comedians. Generationally, still here, still a comedic institution. There would be no Kevin Hart and Katt Williams without this space. Shout out to Anthony Hamburger and Shucky Ducky Quack Quack. But, there’s no outlet for them right now. For Wild ‘N Out,you still have a through line of comedy from 2005 that continuously is running through the blood of this show. It never got out of syndication. It’s still been on the air. We can’t even find Def Comedy Jam unlessit’s clips. You can’t even tell me a full lineup without looking of what was a a night that set precedence all the comedians. You could go on YouTube right now and look at clips of Wild ‘N Out and their range from, I think the highest view clip is like 66 million, and their YouTube page is still continuously active. We don’t have that same lineage or legacy with Def Comedy Jam.

 

Carma Anderson  11:21

I know y’all can’t really see it, but Jameer is in L.A. He has his buttons always to his neck, so he thinks he’s like a gangster now […].

 

Jameer Pond  11:30

I see the salon.

 

Ronald young Jr.  11:32

All right, we’re not gonna do personal attacks here on Pop Culture Debate Club. Carma, when you think about people getting their starts. There’s quite a few names that come from the Def Comedy Jam camp,we’ll come back to you in a minute, Jameer. But Carma, if you want to talk through people gettingtheir start on Def Comedy Jam, what that looked like?

 

Carma Anderson  11:51

It looked like a magnificent time. I will say that Jameer is correct. Def Comedy Jam absolutely does not have long run as Wild ‘N Out. But, the effects and the people from Def Comedy Jam that we’re still able to see 20 and 30 years later, you can’t understate that. I will say that there are some standouts that have come out of Wild now that have ended up on SNL three, I can count them. The people on Wild now, I’m not sure if we’re seeing people that are going to have the longevity. I also think that there’s a showmanship part to […] that I don’t hate. There are artists and actors that come on the show, but they are not a part of the cast. There’s a lot of razzle-dazzle when it comes to Wild ‘N Out.

 

Jameer Pond  12:43

Well, one show’s alive and another one’s not. So, I guess the razzle-dazzle took it to another place whereDef Comedy Jam.

 

Carma Anderson  12:49

Probably Dr. Martin King passed, but his presence is felt. I didn’t know that things going away changed the influence.

 

Jameer Pond  12:55

Right. His presence on every Martin Luther King Boulevard that is underserved in America.

 

Carma Anderson  13:01

Wow, you get dark every episode.

 

Ronald young Jr.  14:59

I’m keeping it a buck. That’s a buck. We’ll be back with more Pop Culture Debate Club after this break.

 

Ronald young Jr.  15:46

Carma, let’s go back for a second though. Talk through names that we come out of Def Comedy Jam.

 

Carma Anderson  15:50

I wrote my little list. I don’t want to forget the greats. But Jamie Foxx, Mike Epps, Dave Chappelle, Katt Williams, Bernie Mac (rest in peace), Martin Lawrence, Tracy Morgan, Chris Tucker, Chris Rock, Sheryl Underwood, John Witherspoon.

 

Ronald young Jr.  16:07

Would you say that Def Comedy Jam was a mandatory destination for black comedians in order to go to whatever level they were going to go to next?

 

Carma Anderson  16:17

I think it was that, especially the ones that didn’t fit the formula of comic view which was more family oriented. I think, at that time, if you wanted to be very ballsy and like be out there, that’s definitely a place where you had to start. Similar to the Apollo, similar to Star Search, where the people that you talkto every day, you think are hilarious. Like you should be on something, but they weren’t really gettingthat, that national recognition or that space to really be seen. And if they weren’t playing cubs, they were playing shitty clubs and they weren’t really being recognized. This allowed them to start to get paidwhat they were owed, start to see that there’s a whole community of black stand ups, especially women that were starting to also get their just do, that maybe weren’t work before talking about topics like men. Conversations that girls would have in the hair salon were now public, and that wasn’t something that they were open. We knew about the barbershop conversations, but we didn’t know about the hairdresser ones.

 

Ronald young Jr.  17:17

So, it was funny because you mentioned Star Search, Comic View and I think you said one more. What was the other one? Apollo. All three shows where prominent black entertainers would go in order to receive a launch plan into the next area. So there were four at that time, and we’re talking about four that were just right off the top heads that we know of. Jameer, this is a question for you. Would you say that, that is what Wild ‘N Out is today for black comedians?

 

Jameer Pond  17:44

It’s probably a culmination of all those shows. To be honest, I think it gives such a wide spread. Not only just for comedians, but for entertainers in general because not only has Wild ‘N Out probably helped outpeople’s comedic sensibilities, but also their improv and acting. So when I say it’s an institution, it really is. The process of having people audition for Wild ‘N Out, they go through several practice rounds and are able to really learn. It’s like a comedic college. Not saying that Def Comedy Jam isn’t, I think that DefvComedy Jam sees the opportunity of I believe was the comedy act theater. The first host was supposed to be Robin Harris, but he passed away. So, Martin Lawrence kind of took over that platform, but it was undoubtedly a destination place for black comedians. Wild ‘N Out is just a more expansive institution forcomedians and entertainers especially in the 90s and the 80s and comic view. Def ComedyJam, when you see a microphone, it’s like you want to see black people doing just traditional skit stand up. I don’t think there was a place for black people. They were variety shows at times, and then they died and didn’t come back. But, it wasn’t a place where you can see all of this – music, comedy, battle rap, jokes, roasting, just in one place -Wild ‘N Out.

 

Ronald young Jr.  19:17

Jameer, can you talk a little bit about why that’s better? Why is it better to see black folks doing the spectrum of entertainment than it is to see them doing stand up, especially when it comes to comedy?

 

Jameer Pond  19:26

Because I think it allows people to not be one note. A lot of the criticism that came in the 90s with Def Comedy Jam outside of his audience, of course was you saw blackness in kind of one note. Or there would be these comedians that weren’t, like Bernie Mac or Jamie Foxx or Bill Bellamy who were. I heard this on a podcast. Essentially, taking a stool and simulating sex, just doing these things. And I thoughtthat was, while it birthed a lot of careers, I don’t think it gave the full breadth of who these people were. It took Chris Tucker to probably later on his career to be taken out of the Def Comedy Jam vein, the smoky vein for him to do more serious roles. So, I think while it propelled a lot of comedians andblackness, it might have hurt the individual’s career more, because people kind of saw them as one note.

 

Ronald young Jr.  20:28

Carma, what do you think about that one note vs being able to be 360 degree kind of versatile. Do you think one is more important than the other?

 

Carma Anderson  20:36

I do think that it’s important to see African American creators as multi-dimensional. However, I think that the conversation is bigger, and I think we have to stop resting on our laurels of putting these shows with so much weight because this show is here, right? It has to incorporate everything. While it should bethat people see black people as not a monolith, I don’t think shows are doing that because I think that there are places where these shows because those people who are still fucking in chair, they have an audience. That audience is valid, right? I think that sometimes comedy is best when it is specific. But, I think the problem is a lot of voices aren’t heard because the powers that be don’t want them to be heard. We have these conversations where if it does appear to be a one trick pony, that we then think that it’s wrong because there’s not enough spaces for us to be in. I think sometimes Wild ‘N Out, I don’t see it as a black space. I see it as a space more generational than I see it as a racial space. I see it very male. I see that it’s gotten more female over the years, but I still see it as very male and I think that certain. Even the women that are on there, there are certain types of women that are on there, especially the black women. I think while announced issue, it has started to appeal to a larger audience that when I watch episodes now, it feels chaotic to me, but I feel like it is a three ring circus a lot of timeswhen the episodes are occurring, right? Because I think they’re trying to do so much that the finesse of comedy is not really being seen. When you watching Def Comedy Jam, I could be a bougie comedy nerdand that’s fine. But, there’s a refined part you’re looking at people crafting a story. You’re looking at people creating things that are very specific, very pure. We still haven’t seen any real standouts come from Wild ‘N Out, like not superstars.

 

Ronald young Jr.  22:42

Let’s talk about that Jameer. Who does break out from Wild ‘N Out and do you consider that Nick Cannon is a superstar?

 

Jameer Pond  22:55

I just wanted to say something that Carma said in terms of there being just one person getting through the door and we’ve heard that a lot with black comedians, specifically generational comedians that it’s only allowed one to go through the door. I think that’s actually what […] now really excels on. It’s not just one. You have a rotating cast. You have a whole bunch of people getting a chance to touch the basketball, and not just one person at a time. So, you don’t get a cast like 85 South without Wild ‘N Out. You don’t get that. You don’t get D.C Young Fly, Chico Bean or Karlous Miller. I understand that Katt Williams was on Def Comedy Jam. But those first early years of Wild ‘N Out, they really helped level set each other, like Katt Williams grew with the show as being the premier comedian on there. To me, Katt Williams is much more of a Wild ‘N Out star than he was a Def Comedy Jam star. Because correct me if I’m wrong, you do the knowledge afterwards or during to fact check. But, he was on the second iteration of Def Comedy Jam when it came back. But, I think he got a lot of national exposure from Wild ‘N Out. I think he’s a superstar, that’s number one. Kevin Hart, while also Def Comedy Jam, I understand. He was featured way more on Wild ‘N Out in those early years where his career was bubbling right by Soul Plane, right by the big house which he had. I see those people not making their big breaks on Def Comedy Jam. I’m not even going to argue that, because they didn’t make their big breaks on Def Comedy Jam. They made their bigger breaks on Wild ‘N Out. If we look at that, they are arguably the two comedians who were driving force stand up comedy today. Now, if we want to talk about all the people that are coming up after them, I think D.C Young Fly is a star. Is he a superstar? No, but I do think that people from Wild ‘N Out have come out and entered in the ethos. People weren’t getting entered in the ethos. It was 1-1-1-1, now you got people developing career at mass, you just can’t take that away. It’sfrom being able to share the ball. I don’t think Nick Cannon is a superstar, but I think Nick Cannon does a hell of a job of keeping himself relevant and active. Wild ‘N Out is a motherboard for that. He doesn’t  get all his hosting gigs and movie and side quest TV shows without Wild ‘N Out. Wild ‘NOut is still the motherboard for black comedy today. Also, let me just backtrack the because you would like the type of women that come through. I’ve seen more diverse women be on Wild ‘N Out than I could say I’ve seen on Def Comedy Jam, especially from people like Pretty V, B. Simone and Courtney B, who are up and coming comedians who are black, who don’t look anything alike, who are just talented. The farm system in terms of picking talent also I think far exceeds Def Comedy Jam, because you have moreaccess to comedians today than you had back then. While people were getting three or four person shows at a time, you have a chance to see 12 different comedians over the course of a few seasons. If you asking me, who keeps people employed more, it’s undoubtedly Wild ‘N Out.

 

Ronald young Jr.  26:42

Talk to me a few. You mentioned Katt Williams and Kevin Hart. Do you have other stars that came from Wild ‘N Out? I gave Carma that opportunity. Want to make sure I give you that opportunity as well?

 

Jameer Pond  26:53

Yeah, I don’t think there’s any.

 

Carma Anderson  26:57

Karlous Miller.

 

Jameer Pond  27:00

First of all, hold your horses because it’s my turn.

 

Carma Anderson  27:03

I stopped talking.

 

Jameer Pond  27:04

All right, I just want to make sure you stop. I want to make sure that we stop here. So, I would say in terms of global superstars, I would say Katt Williams and Kevin Hart kind of take that and run with it. ButI also think if we talk about, like really global superstars that come from Def Comedy Jam, there’s only a handful of global superstars that have come from there. Yes, you have Chris Rock, you have Jamie Foxx,you have Dave Chappelle, but I’m talking about global superstars. I’m not talking about heroes in the black community, which differ from global superstars. I don’t think Cedric the Entertainer is a global superstar. D.L Hughley is not a global superstar. I don’t think you understand what I’m thinking about global.

 

Ronald young Jr.  28:03

I know what you mean. Don’t pay attention to my face. Continue.

 

Jameer Pond  28:08

I saw your face. Because if we break down global, that’s not a global superstar. That’s a pillar in the black comedy community, which differs? Does it not differ?

 

Ronald young Jr.  28:20

Well, I guess my follow up question to that would be like, “Do you think that the difference in media at the time would be the difference between what a global superstar is in the 90s vs what a global superstar is at present?”.

 

Jameer Pond  28:37

I think so. But even at that time, a lot of the comedians that they found on Def Comedy Jam were regional comedians. Even after their appearance, some were able to appear in movies and make a career doing strings of movies just from Def Comedy Jam. I won’t take that away, because that’s how they got their bread and butter. But, if we talk about breaking through as global superstars, I think you can argue that there aren’t 10 that came just from Def Comedy Jam. I think there were amazing comedians, brilliant comedians, who broke through. But if we talk about global, no.

 

Carma Anderson  29:14

I like. You know, I will say, I have to just real quick. You talk about Pretty Vee and B Simone, you said they’re not the same. But as a woman comedian, they are. And they do because their sense of humor is the same. They have the same background. I’m not talking about how they look. I’m not talking about they come. I’m talking about they come some of the diversity of the comedy that they’re putting forth. Right? As a black community, we’re still having issues with that. It’s still very formulaic with the type of women that are able to make jokes and get popular about those. Their jokes are very similar. The playing ground in which they play is there are localized similarities. I don’t see differences between them.They’re doing this.

 

Jameer Pond  30:01

Tell me a similar joke.

 

Carma Anderson  30:05

Sir, I don’t care about them. I’m just saying, they’re not similar. They literally have web series and shows and podcasts where they share that. They share those jokes. I don’t share the comedic, so I don’t share the comedic funny point. I can say, if I was on there, then I’d be like, “Okay, now there’s somebody else”. If I saw someone else, like astigmatism comedy, I’d be like, “Okay, so now there’s three different types of black women comedians on a show”, but when I look at Pretty Vee and B Simone, I don’t see a big difference and that’s me. But again, comedy is subjective, so that’s fine. But I don’t think it’s fair. I’m not talking about how they’re looking. I’m talking about what kind of point of comedy and reference they have.

 

Jameer Pond  30:50

That’s what I’m talking about, too.

 

Carma Anderson  30:51

Me too. So we talk about it, I’m moving on. We were talking about the global superstars and Ronald brought up that point about being different. I think we are undermining the fact that when we talk about black creators, notoriously, they are global, but they don’t get their just due. A lot of things people may not know as global, but I bet you there’s somebody in India going, bang, bang, bang. They don’t know why they saying it, but they saying it and I’ve seen it. I find it ironic that you pick the actors and thecomedians from Def Comedy Jam that may not be global, but let’s also be for real. Jamie Foxx is an Academy Award winner. Mo’Nique is an Academy Award winner. You’re talking about John Witherspoon, you’re talking about Sheryl Underwood, you’re talking about people that are on show literally getting Emmys being the longest running co-host. These are things that we are talking about now. I don’t know what you consider global, but I know these people are being played all over places. I’ve talked to white female comedians that have been on circuits with Katt Williams and said, “You should see”. I’ve been in England and I’ve seen him, you should see the way he commands the audience. It doesn’t matter whether they’re white/black. People have a global presence, whether we’re hearing about it or not, they are globally. But again, black people are notoriously disenfranchised, so justbecause whatever global is happening, I’m telling you, these effects us real and I’m not saying that Wild ‘N Out doesn’t have that as well. They are imprinting in other countries as well. But to negate one to big up the other, it’s a fallacy of logic and I’m not gonna stand for it.

 

Jameer Pond  32:33

Fallacy of logic.

 

Ronald young Jr.  32:35

Jameer, before we we’re running tight on time. So Jameer, you could make your rebuttal, but make it a part of your closing argument.

 

Jameer Pond  32:42

Okay, thank you for that. Carma, I appreciate your commentary.

 

Ronald young Jr.  32:46

Y’ll are so easily distracted by each other’s reps.

 

Jameer Pond  32:51

No, I was saying thank you for her commentary because I think it proves my point. They all play in a system that is here. This is the entertainment system. I don’t make the rules. I don’t tell John Witherspoon. He can’t go to India or whatever the case is. When we talk about global superstars, we’re identifying people who can go all over the world and be recognized. I’m not saying that some of these people can’t, but very few can. The stars that came out of Def Comedy Jam are undeniable. I wouldn’t even try to take that away. But, the people that have been allowed to touch the wild and outstage, and what they’ve been able to do, is the point that I’m making. You’re talking about free range of comedy – from physical, from variety, from musical, from improv. Black people weren’t given these opportunities, maybe in the 90s if they would have had a space like Wild ‘N Out. You see more people expanding and growing, but they had to take the opportunities that they were given. So, I’ll wrap this up with my final point. I would never take away the legacy and the imprint that Def Comedy Jam has left on this world – not just in comedy, this world. But, there’s a difference between LeBron James and Michael Jordan. I think Michael Jordan is an incredible basketball player. I think he is absolutely one of the best basketballplayers that has ever graced one of two, I would say. When you look at Michael Jordan, he was very dominant. He was effective. He was a scoring machine. He could do so much. If you look over the body of career that LeBron James has had, not only from 2003 but to the 2025 that we’re seeing now, we see somebody that is still going. We see somebody that is overall a pillar in basketball – not just on one end, not just stand up, not just one note, but we see an expansion of black possibilities that we were not able to see when Martin Lawrence was on stage and riffing on people. They just weren’t allowed to have that same thing. So, while Def Comedy Jam was able to be a pillar and knock down that door, I think where Wild ‘N Out is especially like where we’ve seen it to where it’s going now. It’s perfect for this generation of comedy where people aren’t just doing stand up, where they’re trying to expand, act, and produce and do all these things that Def Comedy Jam just isn’t aroundand wasn’t around to do at that time. It pays to still be here, and it pays to still have clear footage of something and not ripped constantly from YouTube to YouTube and that’s sad to me, because they don’t even have it on max where I could be able to see it. They treat Def Comedy Jam like an after thought, which I think is criminal. But while we’re still here, let’s sing praises to a comedy institution that is keeping that bloodline alive. And that’s Nick Cannon, Wild ‘N Out. Ronald, what up?

 

Ronald young Jr.  35:55

Closing argument,. Carma go right ahead. Great job Jameer Pond.

 

Carma Anderson  36:00

To your point, Jameer, it’s like arguing whether we need water. Wild ‘N Out has a myriad of different comedy avenues so does that Def Comedy Jam. It may not be like, “Hey, we’re going to do improv. Hey, we’re going to do sketch right now”. But, the people that we’ve all loved – the comedians, they told stories, they created characters, they did sketches, recreations of events that we could all relate to. I think that is something to be said about creating lightning in a bottle. It’s not scripted, it is exactly what you get. It may not have all the polish that Wild ‘N Out does, but it has just as much prestige and it’s just as influential, It’s a place where people were able to thrive black comedians especially where there wasn’t a place, and stand up is an important part of the culture. It kind of led to black people being more comfortable doing other things. So, I don’t think that you can even talk about Wild ‘N Out without talking about Def Comedy Jam. The people that have come out of Def Comedy Jam are still way more influential and way more important than anybody coming out of Wild ‘N Out now. I don’t think we’ll eversee those types of people. I don’t think an Academy Award winner is coming out of Wild ‘N Out. It could be wrong, but right now they’re not hitting the strides they would, and those Def Comedy Jam comedians like MoNique, Jamie Foxx, they did.

 

Ronald young Jr.  37:29

We’ll be back with more PCDC after this break.

 

Ronald young Jr.  38:46

All right. Are y’all ready for my ruling? So, this is interesting because while y’all were talking, I came to a realization which I’m going to slowly give to you right now. I just want to point out just a couple of facts. In Living Color came out before Def Comedy Jam. It came out in 1990, if I’m not mistaken. Def Comedy Jam didn’t come out till 1992, Wild ‘N Out came out in 2005 and then was released in 2013 and is still on the air today. So, we have to talk about the two periods of time in which black people were doing comedy. The options for black people to go global in comedy. Before that, we’re talking before the 90s. We’re talking what, like Richard Pryor, Red Fox, Eddie Murphy, right? And Eddie Murphy, SNL blew up, you know what I mean? Skip Def Comedy Jam completely. You’ll never see him on that show, because he was already in the stratosphere at that point. But in terms of black folks having opportunities, you didn’t really have many. In terms of, how do you go global? You can work the comedy circuits or you could be on Def Comedy Jam or you could be on comic view, or you can be on Apollo night. You know what I mean? Those are Star Search. Those were your options, really. If you couldn’t get on those, you just kept working the comedy circuits. Other comedian knew who you were, but you weren’t necessarily going to the stratosphere. Now, let’s go up to the 2000s. You have a show like Wild ‘N Out that comes out in 2005 to 2007 and kind of disappears during what really happens with the internet from 2007 to 2013. What y’all to think about? What happened between 2007 2013. Barack Obama, twitter, pot the riseof podcasting, all of that stuff. So, when they come back into 2013, they come back into a very crowded space. They come back where there is really a vacuum for black comedians, unless you’re on social media doing your thing. Let’s think about Tony Baker, Kevin on stage, all of these black comediansare building their own platforms, essentially on Instagram. The realization I had was realizing that right now, how do black comedians get on right now? They get on through sketches a lot of ways. You think about somebody like, Druski – he gets on from sketches. Like, Funny Marco gets on from sketches. They’re under all these things that they’re building on their own, which for me, indicates not what is better or what is worse, but really the idea of, like “What is comedy today va what was comedy in the 90s”. In the 90s comedy, you pick up a mic, you stand there and you talk, and hopefully you get a sitcom. Then you turn those jokes into episodes, which is kind of what the truth is. And the truth is, if all of these comedians that were making comedy now were born 20 years earlier, they’d all be on Def Comedy Jam or in Living Color or Star Search or ComicView, and the same thing goes in reverse. If those comedians were born 20 years later, the best ones would still be Wild ‘N Out, building their platforms, all that stuff. I hate to say this, unfortunately, you’re both right and you’re both wrong. So, this is a draw. There is no winner. I don’t think there’s a way. I think everything I said. I don’t think there’s a way to declare a definitive winner between two shows in which like would they are the destination spot for aspiring comedians that are tend to grow their career. If you swap them, they still have the same impact that they have right now. Even though your argument points were correct, there’s a difference in Def ComedyJam 2.0, but there’s also a difference in Wild ‘N Out 2.0. To Carma’s point, it was more chaotic in the second and now than it was in the beginning. To your point Jameer, Def Comedy Jam 2.0 was a little bit worse without Martin Lawrence. But I think again, you swap those two vehicles. I mean, what are we talking about here? The same comedians are going to still like rise on both of them. I will say I quibbled alittle bit with your idea of what a global superstar is, but I know you were trying to win the debate.

 

Jameer Pond  42:58

Let you have one.

 

Ronald young Jr.  42:59

You know what it is. Come on.

 

Jameer Pond  43:00

You think “No, knock the D.L, hugely”. But if, if he go to Istanbul right now, they ain’t gonna mob the street.

 

Ronald young Jr.  43:05

I don’t know. Okay, maybe not. Istanbul is a very specific choice. But if they go to London, I can feel like go to Paris. Are they gonna do all right? Istanbul is very specific.

 

Carma Anderson  43:20

Japan.

 

Ronald young Jr.  43:21

Japan, Tokyo. You know what I mean?

 

Jameer Pond  43:23

What about former Yugoslavia? Pulling up on former yuga?

 

Ronald young Jr.  43:27

Ain’t none of us pulling up on former Yugoslavia. There’s two more things I want to say. The first is that I want to point out that kept Katt Williams did not show up on Def Comedy Jam until he was already a star, that was kind of tough. But that being said, I do not believe that Wild ‘N Out does for Kevin Hart what Kevin Hart had done for himself by the time he was there, because him being on Wild ‘N Out, I’d already done a couple of big movies. So, he was helping Wild ‘N Out more than Wild ‘N Out  was helping. It was a mutual beneficial relationship.

 

Carma Anderson  44:00

Symbiotic.

 

Ronald young Jr.  44:02

Symbiotic. Thank you. The last thing I’ll say is, when I think about where Wild ‘N Out is going, what it looks like, I believe that it becomes more obsolete in the years to come, kind of in the same way that DefComedy Jam, as more comedians begin to just put their stuff on social media and do it that way. So unfortunately, you both win, you both lose. This is a draw.

 

Jameer Pond  44:26

You’re just trying to have us back.

 

Ronald young Jr.  44:29

Okay. I’ll say that was that reminds me one thing, y’all are welcome back. Y’all have permanent spots onthe show.

 

Jameer Pond  44:35

Okay.

 

Ronald young Jr.  44:35

Last thing I’ll say is that, I almost feel like a better debate or a better matchup would have been Wild ‘N Out vs Living Color, because I’m starting to think about what sketch comedy was, and so I’m like, “I don’t know, think that through your as y’all leave”, but I’m sitting here thinking about it. I’m like, Jameer, you’d be arguing against yourself, but still, I’m sitting there thinking.

 

Carma Anderson  44:49

He does a lot, though. He’s used to it. He likes arguing against himself.

 

Ronald young Jr.  45:01

Thank you both for joining us.

 

Jameer Pond  45:02

All right. Thank you, Ron.

 

Carma Anderson  45:04

Thank you.

 

Ronald young Jr.  45:09

Thanks again to Jameer Pond and Carma Anderson. Thanks so much for listening to Pop Culture Debate Club. If you haven’t yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’ll get bonuscontent like Jameer and Carma discussing their strategy for winning this debate. Just hit the subscribe button onApple podcasts or for all other podcast apps. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com. Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Lemonada and the BBC. It’s produced by Jamela Zarha Williams, Kryssy, Pease, Dani Matias and me, Ronald Young Jr. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neel is VP of new content. Our senior vice president of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Commissioning editor for the BBC is Rhian Roberts. Executive producers are Stephanie Wittles Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Follow Pop Culture Debate Club, wherever you get your podcasts.