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Who is the worst lawyer on TV? Author and TV writer Samantha Irby says it’s Will Gardner from The Good Wife and writer and podcast host Josie Duffy Rice picks Rusty Sabich from Presumed Innocent. One’s a prosecutor, the other a defense attorney. One’s accused of murder, the other bribing a judge. And they both make questionable romantic decisions. Aminatou Sow must render her verdict and declare which of the two is the worst lawyer on television.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Samantha Irby, Aminatou Sow, Josie Duffy

Aminatou Sow  00:00

I’m Aminatou Sow, and I’m a writer who loves pop culture. So welcome to Pop Culture Debate Club from Lemonada, and the BBC. We bring on some of the funniest, smartest folks in the biz to go head to head over TV, music and movies that we love. And because I’m the judge, I get to choose the winner.

 

Aminatou Sow  02:07

If you’re familiar with this show, you probably already know that we spend a lot of time debating and thinking about culture in terms of what’s best or most between this or that. But today, we’re going to do something a little different. We’re going to highlight the best of the worst of something. When it comes to pop culture, there is kind of self righteousness that comes with watching a character who’s facing a moral or ethical dilemma and then watching them make the wrong decision on how they handle it. It’s the crux of most good drama, and I think we love it even more when the character happens to work in a profession that is centered within making moral choices like the criminal justice system, the whole point is that people will do the right thing and justice will be served. But we love contradictions, and when you think about it, TV is the perfect medium for a courtroom procedural. Each episode has a revolving door of criminals, perps, those who swear they’re innocent. The dramatic tension is built into each new case, and then we get a tidy resolution at the end, in the form of a verdict, roll credits repeat. And networks know that this formula is a bankable one. There are so many shows about the goings on in and out of a courtroom. Shows that immediately spring to mind for me are law and order, How to Get Away with Murder suits, Night Court, Judging Amy, JAG, Damages, The Practice, Matlock. And bear with me, maybe even Monk, definitely Monk. But let’s be real. The cases are interesting, but the real reasons we tune into these kinds of shows is for the lawyers. Sure, we love seeing how they operate within the court system, but we’re really tuning in for their behavior outside of it. Lawyers personal lives are often depicted as messy, horny, morally compromised, or some combination of all these things. They can barely hold it together when they aren’t pontificating in front of a judge or jury, plus they can’t seem to keep their hands off of each other after hours when the sun sets, law firms in these shows are basically brothels with Ivy League degrees and good lighting, we love to watch seemingly good people make terrible decisions that blur the line between their professional and personal lives. It’s their whole job to be good. So why is it so fun to watch them be bad, not just at life, but also at their jobs? Which leads me to today’s topic, who is the worst lawyer on television? You and I had the pleasure of parsing all of this with two of my favorite people, Josie Duffy Rice and Samantha Irby. They’re both writers. Josie focuses mostly on the criminal justice system. She is also a lawyer, while Sam has written a couple of New York time best selling books, No Big Deal and also rights for TV. Today we are discussing who you think is the worst lawyer on television. I’m making the biggest air quotes, and I wish people at home could see them. But before we get into your picks, Josie, you graduated from Harvard Law School. Do you think that your experience of studying law will give you an edge in today’s debate?

 

Josie Duffy  05:07

I think that if I had studied law or remembered it, probably however it did teach me to hate prosecutors, and that will be relevant soon.

 

Aminatou Sow  05:21

Solid out the gate. Sam, as someone who did not attend law school, what’s your strategy going into today’s debate?

 

Samantha Irby  05:31

To make as many jokes as possible to deflect from the fact that I literally don’t know anything like truly, I went to high school like Harvard Law.

 

Josie Duffy  05:46

Don’t worry.

 

Samantha Irby  05:47

Mute my mic. As a matter of fact.

 

Josie Duffy  05:50

I feel that going there made me forget all the other stuff I learned, and then I forgot all the stuff I learned there, and now I’m in a lot of debt. So who’s the smart one here?

 

Samantha Irby  06:02

You know that’s true. I do not have debt. I’m sorry.

 

Aminatou Sow  06:07

Wow, please check your privilege at the door. So offensive, wow, famous one percenter, Samantha Irby, like it all comes out.

 

Samantha Irby  06:16

Yeah, sorry, guys, sorry.

 

Aminatou Sow  06:19

Oh, man, okay, Sam, who did you pick today to represent? Who you think is the worst lawyer on TV?

 

Samantha Irby  06:25

I picked will Gardner from The Good Wife.

 

Aminatou Sow  06:32

2009 – 2016 Good Wife?

 

Samantha Irby  06:36

Now I have to say I picked him with all of the love in my heart, because Josh Charles is okay, gorgeous, and he’s great on the show. But I think if you really look at the shit that he did, he was a bad guy kind of, sort of, I’m so ready, in a way that I think is funny.

 

Aminatou Sow  07:00

Okay, did you watch The Good Wife when it was out? Or is this like a recent show for you?

 

Samantha Irby  07:05

Oh, I watched it when it was out, and I have, I’ve watched it many times.

 

Aminatou Sow  07:10

Okay, so The Good Wife cinematic universe has like those two spin offs, the good fight, and my queen, Elspeth. Do you watch those?

 

Samantha Irby  07:18

Oh, I love Elspeth Tassone, incredible. The Good Fight. I watched it all and loved it. I mean, I’m a, what are their names, Robert and Michelle King, like I am down with the kings. I watch evil. But there was something about good fight that was like, almost like, too campy. Also, I couldn’t get over, I mean, not to start a race war, but I could not get over that this black firm let this white lady come in and just like, take over. I mean, I get it, but I also was like, Christine Baranski pushing around Delroy Lindo, I just.

 

Aminatou Sow  08:01

I know, but if, if I’m gonna trust one white lady to come in and push around people and not be offended, it’s gonna be Christine Baranski, you know.

 

Samantha Irby  08:10

No, that’s true, it’s her.

 

Aminatou Sow  08:13

Yeah, they got me. Really good. Okay? Josie, who’s your choice for worst lawyer on TV?

 

Josie Duffy  08:18

Okay, Rusty Savage. He’s on, presumed innocent, currently streaming on Apple TV. Great show, very much enjoying it. Now, I do feel like I should clarify that this show is not even over, so he could possibly surprise me in the end.

 

Aminatou Sow  08:35

Very bold, six out of eight episodes out and you’re you have a definitive judgment on him, okay?

 

Samantha Irby  08:41

I think you’re right. I don’t think he’s gonna .

 

Josie Duffy  08:43

He’s not gonna surprise us, and he is a fool, and he is playing games with his wife, and like so many lawyers, thinks he’s really smart and strategic. I love it.

 

Aminatou Sow  08:57

Oh, man, this is so tough for me, because it’s one of those things where you’re like, the character and the actor are not the same person, you know, like, obviously. And I’m like, I love both of these performances by these two actors, and these characters, like, drive me insane in their own way. So I’m glad that you’ve chosen this Josie. I also wanna ask you, though, have you seen the 1990 film with Harrison Ford a presumed innocence.

 

Josie Duffy  09:22

I haven’t and let me tell you that it has taken every single ounce of self control for me to not Wikipedia at the end, because I want to know, but I do have some predictions of what happens.

 

Aminatou Sow  09:33

Wow, you’re gonna have real egg on your face when he turns out to be the best prosecutor this country’s ever seen. Well, yeah, wait so Josie, you’ve seen the good wife, though, right?

 

Josie Duffy  09:45

I’ve seen the good wife. I do remember will garner and I think I loved him, which does map. I do tend.

 

Aminatou Sow  09:54

To you like bad defense lawyers, but you hate good prosecutors. That matter.

 

Josie Duffy  09:58

I think I liked, okay, can. Would remind me what he did.

 

Aminatou Sow  10:01

Well, remember, he was a partner at the firm, yes, and he went to law school with Alicia Florek, played by Julianna Margulies.

 

Josie Duffy  10:09

They started hooking up in the bathrooms and stuff. I remember that.

 

Aminatou Sow  10:12

No, they did not hook up in a bathroom. Root of you, they hooked up in an elevator first, and they waited a long time to show us these don’t diminish their love. You can tell that I’m a big, good wife fan. Like, obviously it’s a great show. Wait, but Sam, have you seen Presumed Innocent?

 

Samantha Irby  10:33

Yes, Rusty is on real to me, like, it’s so crazy. Every single thing he does on like, and the fact that it’s Chicago, like, maybe, you know, maybe they’re like, yeah, it’s a corrupt town. He totally would do this. But in this day and age.

 

Josie Duffy  10:52

Like, what are we doing? Why are you playing yourself? No, what is going on? This show is a quintessential example of forced diversity for me, where it’s not working because Jake Gyllenhaal like trying this on Ruth and her dealing with it just doesn’t work for me.

 

Aminatou Sow  11:14

Okay, can you lay it out a little more for people who have not seen the show?

 

Josie Duffy  11:17

Yes, Jake Gyllenhaal is white and Ruth Nega is black, Irish. She from Ireland, Scotland, okay, and here they are on this show. He’s cheating on her with his little boo at work at the prosecutor’s office, Ruth finds out and is working it through with him. And I just it is not sitting right with my spirit that we’re supposed to believe that he’s gonna get away with this.

 

Aminatou Sow  11:48

Get away with cheating. You mean, the cheating on his black wife, with his white coworker, that he’s also accused of murdering?

 

Josie Duffy  11:54

The cheating like it’s just not I’m like, Ruth, we gotta go. Let’s go like you can. You know, you can do better than this.

 

Aminatou Sow  12:00

I mean, I’ll say this, because this is fully respectability politics. Like a lawyer named Rusty is like a very tough sell for me. You know what? I mean, I was like, I personally feel like I will be going to jail if my lawyer is named rusty. Yeah so, Josie, can you tell me what presumed innocent is about and what rusty Savage’s role on the show is?

 

Josie Duffy  12:23

The whole show is basic. I think it’s very well done and that you’re like, Who did he actually kill her? Who actually killed her? And meanwhile, he has two kids. And one thing that’s kind of crazy about this whole case, which I’m happy to suspend reality for, but his like, co workers are prosecuting him. I’m like, I don’t think that’s what you’re allowed to do. That sounds like a pretty big conflict of interest, but it’s good TV, and I’m enjoying it.

 

Aminatou Sow  12:48

Okay, Sam, can you tell our listeners what The Good Wife is about and what will Gardner’s role in The Good Wife?

 

Samantha Irby  12:56

The Good Wife is about Alicia, and she is a lawyer who stopped lawyering for 10 years or 13 years, something like that, to stay at home and raise our kids. But now that her husband is in prison, she decides to go back to work. And she goes back to work at the firm of will Gardner, and he hires her because he went to law school with her and knows her and also thinks she’s sexy, which we find like he kind of looks at her like, okay, legs, I know, but the legs are lagging are legging Will is technically her boss, but he is very bad at being a boss because he’s super emotional. He makes decisions based on his feelings, a lot of times his feelings for her. She has a nemesis in the office named Carrie. Carrie clocks immediately that she and will have a special something he doesn’t no one quite knows at first, but will does just enough kind of helping of Alicia will, even though he is so charming and beautiful and handsome, He’s a bad guy you can’t sleep with the nice lady that you hired with basically limited experience.

 

Aminatou Sow  14:29

I agree. Okay, the other thing is that infidelity is so obviously at the like central tenet of presumed innocence. And is this a Chicago thing? Yeah, is it a Chicago thing? Or is it just a human.

 

Samantha Irby  14:41

No one in Chicago can stay faithful.

 

Aminatou Sow  14:44

It’s true. So I just like Wonder if you have thoughts about why, like, infidelity is so interesting as a trope, like in this way.

 

Josie Duffy  14:52

Well, I definitely have thoughts about it in this context of, like, courtroom work, because I think that the nature of being a court. Courtroom lawyer, like being a defense attorney, being a prosecutor, being in an adversarial situation, kind of in and out of every day is like, like, the highs are high, the lows are low, and you feel sometimes that sense of like invincibility that makes you think you can get away with anything. So it’s not super surprising to me. It’s been like, two to three hours a day just assuming things about prosecutors. And I feel that like.

 

Aminatou Sow  15:22

You’re like, they’re cheating on something. I’m not sure what it is.

 

Josie Duffy  15:24

I hope it’s your wife and not these damn documents. Yeah, people cheat at the gym. Feel like this is kind of like that.

 

Aminatou Sow  15:32

People cheat at the gym. What are you talking about? People meet people at the gym all the time.

 

Josie Duffy  15:37

Oh, you might meet people.

 

Aminatou Sow  15:38

Oh, yeah, no, they don’t. I don’t know […]

 

Samantha Irby  15:39

People I did 40 reps when they really did 10?

 

Aminatou Sow  15:45

Yeah, I’m like, you’re only cheating yourself. Ma’am. Okay, let’s take a break.

 

Aminatou Sow  19:06

Sam, this is the part of our show where I’m gonna ask you for an impassioned argument. So Sam, I’m gonna start with you. What is it about the good wife that you think resonated so much with viewers, including you?

 

Samantha Irby  19:19

Okay? You know, sometimes I have to be corny. I will say that even though I was an infant when the show first aired, there is something about a show about a woman in her 40s or 50s, or however old she was doing stuff, not being dead, not not having sex.

 

Samantha Irby  19:19

And a live woman doing work.

 

Samantha Irby  19:41

Yes, and a live, 40 year old woman who has goals. I mean, it feels so cliche to say, because I feel like the three of us know. Oh, but re like, when you watch TV, like, I don’t even want to say older women, because, like, what’s 50, that’s not older, but like, are relegated to these roles where they’re just like, the mom, or they’re wisecracking in the background. And Alicia was starting over, and she was still going to work and getting her shit together and being fly while doing it.

 

Aminatou Sow  20:26

I mean, I can’t argue with that. I’m gonna love it when somebody like cries about this being a spoiler, when will was killed off the show. I wept in season five. I mean, I was catatonic. But how do you think that that impacted the show?

 

Samantha Irby  20:43

I’m so sorry, feminism, but I’m gonna betray you now. But it lost a little something for me. I’m a hopeless romantic, and I wanted to see two forbidden lovers fuck up their jobs because they couldn’t keep their hands off each other.

 

Aminatou Sow  21:01

Yes, agreed the first time that they kiss on the show. I remember having DVR that, and I had to watch it like 10 times over, because it was like, so many episodes building up to it. And I was like, wow, they don’t make television like this anymore. Like that was very truly.

 

Josie Duffy  21:16

I was like, are y’all in love in real life?

 

Aminatou Sow  21:18

Josie, the book that presumed innocent is based on that came out 40 years ago. What do you think that it’s about this character, Rusty Savage, that is, like, still keeps people’s attention.

 

Josie Duffy  21:31

Okay, this is what I do. Like about rusty even though he’s the worst lawyer, he makes stupid mistakes, and then in hindsight, he’s like, here are all the things I did wrong. He’s like, if you get charged, and he’s like, No, I’m gonna get charged. Like, I was there and then I tried to try the case, and also I was sending her text messages saying I was obsessed with her. And you’re like, you know what? For someone who’s not self aware at all that was so self aware, like, after that, good lord, yeah, there is something like, interesting about this person who has made it his, like, professional job to be judge, jury and executioner. And it’s very clear he gets swept up, and in a minute you’re gonna It’s clouds are gonna part, and you’re going to be like, oh, I’m an idiot, and just played myself really badly, because now I’m going to be wanted for murder, and I think he does that.

 

Aminatou Sow  22:27

Great after the fact, good lawyering. Okay, this is a, you know, maybe very cheesy, but this is time for some cross examination. I mean, I love Sam Irby. What do you think about your show, or about will Gardner specifically, is very problematic, or something that you’re like, struggling with upon re watching the show.

 

Samantha Irby  22:48

Okay, something I do struggle with. I’m a catastrophizer at heart, and I’m always when I watch any sort of like, crime or legal show. I’m like, could that happen to me? And I think one of the things about the good wife that is like distressing in that situation is how much of their personal lives they’re dealing with while they’re supposed to be working on their cases, and I’m like, I want a lawyer who’s like a robot, who’s just like reciting laws and statutes and is totally focused on what they need to do to get me out and not like taking calls from their kids. You could say the same thing about er, or a truly, any show that’s based in a workplace, like Grey’s Anatomy.

 

Josie Duffy  23:45

Yes, like, stop having a social life right now.

 

Samantha Irby  23:49

My doctor does not I know he has a family. I don’t want to hear about them. I want you to tell me what this weird growth is. And like, act like it’s the only thing you’re gonna think about today.

 

Aminatou Sow  24:03

Compartmentalize, and don’t tell me about your life outside of here. Okay, but Josie, your cross examination. What is problematic about your show, and is there something that you’re like struggling with as you’re enjoying watching it right now.

 

Josie Duffy  24:21

I just don’t believe Jake Gyllenhaal would have a black wife on this show.

 

Aminatou Sow  24:25

You don’t believe that rusty savage would have a black wife.

 

Josie Duffy  24:27

Or those kids.

 

Aminatou Sow  24:28

Or those kids

 

Josie Duffy  24:30

Race has come up one time when she’s like, you forget our son is black. And I’m like, it feels to me that that is a missing part of this show, where she’s like, Yeah, like, he’s playing you, he’s embarrassing you in these streets.

 

Aminatou Sow  24:43

Well, I guess, but I guess, like, listen, we’re among black women here. And I will just say this, like, I’m just gonna be honest. It’s like, I don’t love it when I watch a television show and a black woman is not right about everything. I’m like, I’m sorry. That’s not my experience. I’m just gonna be honest about that. Yes, is that it is actually not so far fetch that a black woman who is married to a white prosecutor, yes, yes, that’s true. You know, like, it’s actually like, not so far fetched.

 

Josie Duffy  25:12

It’s like she has this one therapist, find a friend.

 

Aminatou Sow  25:18

Girl from COVID, cross talk. But I’m telling you, she married him because she didn’t have any people, and then she ignored her people and she married him, which, it happens, it happens, it happens. We all know this person, and therefore, but the grace of God, like, go all of us where, yeah, it’s like, she’s married to the prosecutor, which that’s the big problem. And then, of course, it’s not until much later that she’s like, you know that your son is black, right? I’m like, that’s actually not shocking to me. I’m like, that’s that’s actually how those marriages work, because otherwise they would lose their they would lose their minds. Yeah, you know what? I mean, yeah, it’s true. I don’t know. I’m actually fully back on Ruth and I guess character being amazing, because it is nice to watch a black woman not be perfect. I was like, this too, is diversity, okay.

 

Josie Duffy  26:00

This is a meanest thing that she just tells me all the time, and it’s time. And it’s true. You always say we need black mediocrity, that white people get me mediocre, we get to be mediocre too. And I that has changed me. I have, like, really taken that to heart.

 

Aminatou Sow  26:13

Well, would you go if your husband did something embarrassing? Would you go to court? Or would you not go to court and stay with him, I would suddenly become a prosecutor. Become a prosecutor. What about you, Sam, if your wife went, if your wife embarrassed your whole family and it’s now embroiled in a crime, are we standing by our woman? Are we like well?

 

Samantha Irby  26:34

No we’re at the lawyer trying to undo the trust. We are figuring how to get her name off the bank account. We are splitting the atom.

 

Aminatou Sow  26:49

Like, I wonder if you could put that in a prenup. You’re just, like, if you embarrass me via a court of law, like, this whole thing is dissolved, like, immediately. Like, I bet you you could do that.

 

Samantha Irby  26:58

Embarrassment is crazy. It can […] , it can flow, but it never goes away. I have to be in charge of embarrassing myself. If you embarrass me. Yeah, all bets are off. You gotta go.

 

Aminatou Sow  27:12

I don’t know this is such a hypothetical for me, but I do really feel that if you know my spouse came home and they were like, I have been embroiled maybe, like I’m accused of, like, killing a young woman that I was having an affair with. I really would be like, let’s watch it play out dog because I wasn’t there.

 

Josie Duffy  27:32

I will pull you up by your ear from that courtroom. You are not gonna sit there like, there is no.

 

Aminatou Sow  27:37

I’m definitely not sitting in the courtroom. But I’m saying like, you know, come back in two years when your child, like, I’m just not taking a position, you know, like, I’m like, yeah, it’s wild.

 

Samantha Irby  27:46

Yeah, I’m gonna see how this goes.

 

Josie Duffy  27:48

Okay, but I have a question, Sam, who’s more likely to be accused of murder you or your wife?

 

Samantha Irby  27:52

Me and she will stay. She’s a nice person. She’s a social worker. She’s forgiving.

 

Josie Duffy  28:00

Oh, she’s, yeah, she’s an Adoni.

 

Aminatou Sow  28:01

Wow, Josie is definitely a murderer. Like, definitely. She’s the criminal in her.

 

Josie Duffy  28:07

I could be a murderer, but I feel like I couldn’t, actually, because I can’t, like, I would, like, clean everything up, right? But I know, but.

 

Aminatou Sow  28:12

I would help you clean it up, right?

 

Josie Duffy  28:14

That’s true. You would be like, Jesse, you left the AX right there?

 

Aminatou Sow  28:17

Oh, yeah. I just think that there are more women serial killers than men. It’s just that the women are smarter, because we have to clean black all the time, so we know not to use bleach and we use peroxide. And so every time I’m watching dateline and somebody’s like, and then the bleach, and I’m like, you are about to get caught, and you deserve it.

 

Josie Duffy  28:33

I never thought about that, wow.

 

Aminatou Sow  28:37

Let’s take another break.

 

Aminatou Sow  29:41

We’re going to pivot a little bit and move into the lightning round. I’m going to ask you both a series of questions about your shows, and all you need to say is, I object, or I’ll allow it, because we don’t sustain anything here. Okay, Josie, this one’s for you. Rusty wears a gold pinky ring on presumed innocent men who wear Pinky rings, do you object? Or will you allow it?

 

Josie Duffy  30:28

Object.

 

Aminatou Sow  30:29

Okay, thank you. That’s correct. And I just want to be clear straight men who wear Pinky rings, queer men are allowed to do whatever they want because they are stylish and beautiful and they know better about most things, correct. Exactly, Sam, Christine Baranski plays Diane Lockhart, a lawyer, on the good wife and also on the good fight. Something that is hard not to notice about her is that she wears a lot of statement necklaces. Some fans of the show found them distracting. I think statement jewelry. Do you object or will you allow it?

 

Samantha Irby  30:59

I’ll allow it.

 

Aminatou Sow  31:00

That’s right, Dan locker can wear whatever she wants, okay. Josie on Presumed Innocent. Rusty’s wife, Barbara, has a flirtation with a bartender named Clifton, which leads her to his apartment to see his artwork. The art installation he shows her takes up the entire huge room in the apartment, if you recall correct?

 

Josie Duffy  31:21

Oh, I do.

 

Aminatou Sow  31:22

So my question for you is, is a bartender who has an advanced degree in art and seemingly a huge apartment all in a bartender salary? Do we object, or do we allow?

 

Josie Duffy  31:34

We allow, if the art is different, I normally, but that art was not say more, say more. What do you want? How do you want how do you want? The art to be different. The art was giving like kids museum like, I’m not an artist. It maybe it was amazing. That was not for me. But I love people who have unexplained money. It’s my favorite game to try to figure out why they’re rich so I’m and.

 

Aminatou Sow  31:58

I mean most white people, unexplained money is the story of our lives I.

 

Josie Duffy  32:03

It’s a story of our lives.

 

Aminatou Sow  32:04

I love it. It’s like hasn’t worked in three years, like swimming on a Tuesday at 2pm secret money. I love it. It’s my favorite thing about living in New York City, stimulating the economy. Sam, while they were filming the fifth season of The Good Wife, the cast and crew were asked to keep Will’s impending death a secret. Alan Cumming though, confessed that he told everyone who would listen that will was about to be killed off on the show, including to his hairdresser. Do we object or do we allow that?

 

Samantha Irby  32:33

I’ll allow it because I am currently working on a show where I unintentionally violated my NBA on a podcast.

 

Aminatou Sow  32:49

NDS are so fake, though. What are you?

 

Samantha Irby  32:52

And it like, yeah, I have to allow it. Sometimes you just get so excited.

 

Josie Duffy  32:58

Yeah, did the lawyer call you or just the network.

 

Samantha Irby  33:01

Oh no. The lawyer called Josie. It was so scary. They like, I got an email that was like, Can you jump on the phone? And I was like, no.

 

Josie Duffy  33:12

Also it’s like, no, don’t y’all have jobs. Why are you listening to my podcast episode?

 

Samantha Irby  33:17

They linked to the podcast. And I was like, how did you even hear that?

 

Aminatou Sow  33:21

Because they’d be monitoring you, hello?

 

Samantha Irby  33:23

No, they do. I haven’t. Oh, that’s a good lawyer. I haven’t messed it yet. No, that’s incredible. Lawyer, incredible. Hi, lawyer, love you. I didn’t, I haven’t gotten into any more trouble.

 

Aminatou Sow  33:35

I love that, Josie, there are a lot of sex scenes in presumed innocent, some of which depict pretty acrobatic acts of sex while standing up, making actors pretend to have sex standing up. Do we object, or do we allow?

 

Josie Duffy  33:49

We object and we object. For the youth who think that this is going to be something that they’re going to be able to do in their 50s, when their knees are giving out, it’s not happening.

 

Aminatou Sow  34:00

We object. I know, but can I say that it is just nice to see people having sex on TV, because there’s no sex on TV anymore, so I have a hard time criticizing the sex at all, because it just feels like nice and transgressive. Okay, Sam, fans on Reddit did a week of what would you say at their roast for cast members of The Good Wife, and I’m gonna read you some of the suggestions for Carrie August, who played Logan on Gilmore Girls, basically, who was Alicia’s Nemesis on the show. First thing Carrie Agos the most attractive person ever to be forgotten by every person he meets. We object or we allow?

 

Samantha Irby  34:38

We object. Roasting is so mean.

 

Aminatou Sow  34:42

It really is mean.

 

Samantha Irby  34:44

And you can’t unhear it.

 

Aminatou Sow  34:47

But sometimes that’s true. Okay, here’s the next roast, Carrie August, the franchise’s most forgettable himbo.

 

Samantha Irby  34:54

Okay, I object, because he was very smart and he beat Alicia. Uh, several times in court.

 

Aminatou Sow  35:02

Okay, last one, Carrie August, two spin offs and not a single cameo. Oh, object or allow?

 

Samantha Irby  35:11

Allow, because it’s true. But boy, is that mean. People are so mean.

 

Aminatou Sow  35:18

Well, I really mean Carrie was a good he was, well, he was a good.

 

Samantha Irby  35:22

Well, no, he was good guys.

 

Aminatou Sow  35:25

But he got caught up, and then he had to go to jail.

 

Samantha Irby  35:28

I know, but he loved Kalinda, and not everybody loved.

 

Aminatou Sow  35:32

Oh, well, that’s a different podcast.

 

Josie Duffy  35:36

He was also the least annoying person on Gilmore Girls.

 

Aminatou Sow  35:39

True Josie. Did you notice the way that rusty puts his reading glasses into the third rung of his button up dress shirts? Do we allow or do we have dress.

 

Josie Duffy  35:48

First of all, I mean, I have walked out of the house twice this week wearing two different shoes. So do you think I noticed that I did not okay. But second of all, where does he put the?

 

Aminatou Sow  35:58

On the third rung of the button up? Like do you wear glasses? Usually put them at the top. I like to do the second rung. Third is just too far down. If I’m honest.

 

Josie Duffy  36:07

See, I feel this man unnerves me. He unnerves me. I object.

 

Aminatou Sow  36:13

Yeah. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s just like one unhinged thing that tells you everything you need to know about that character.

 

Samantha Irby  36:19

He’s just trying to show off that his stomach is flat, because you could only do that if you have abs.

 

Aminatou Sow  36:25

Well, fun fact, courtesy of our amazing producer, Rommel but Jake Gyllenhaal credits close family friend and his godfather Paul Newman as his inspiration for how his character places the glasses.

 

Samantha Irby  36:40

Paul Newman is so sexy, but that is such a, one of those, like, personal affects that people want you to believe is natural, but it’s like you thought about that. You thought about putting your glasses right there.

 

Aminatou Sow  36:55

Like, acting, this is a whole job of acting. This is what’s exciting.

 

Josie Duffy  36:59

When you sit down, they’re gonna poke you.

 

Samantha Irby  37:01

Yes, if you hug someone, you’re gonna smash your glasses.

 

Aminatou Sow  37:06

I’ll say this, he has bigger problems than where the glasses are placed.

 

Josie Duffy  37:10

So, but do you want to be in court trying to look good for the jury, like because you smash your glasses?

 

Aminatou Sow  37:18

No, you did you smash your glasses? No, I know it’s very sad. Okay, last question, and I want both of you to answer at the same time. I’m gonna count you down. But both The Good Wife and presumed innocent take place in Chicago, even though they were filmed in New York City and Pasadena respectively. Do we object or do we allow on the count of 3. 1, 2, 3.

 

Josie Duffy  37:39

Object.

 

Aminatou Sow  37:39

That is correct. That concludes the lightning round portion of the show. We are now entering the final round. Okay, you now have 30 ish uninterrupted seconds to deliver to me your parting words about why your pick today is the one that I should choose. Sam, please tell me why you think will Gardner is the worst lawyer on television, and why I should pick him.

 

Samantha Irby  38:05

Okay, will Gardner is too sexy, amoral. He stole money from one of his clients. He banged a junior associate, but I don’t know. He didn’t murder anyone, so maybe he’s not the worst.

 

Aminatou Sow  38:27

No, Sam, you can’t back on your pay.

 

Samantha Irby  38:29

No, I’m not, I’m thinking of more reasons. He’s like a smarmy defense guy, although we love a defense guy, I’m really messing this up. He got shot. He did not dodge the bullet that came for him. He should not have allowed himself to be shot. That’s true, and that’s why he’s the worst agreed. Case Closed.

 

Aminatou Sow  38:57

Case closed, okay, Josie, please tell me why Rusty Savage is the worst lawyer on TV and why I should pick him.

 

Josie Duffy  39:07

Okay, you can’t be stupid and arrogant. You can be smart and arrogant, and you can be stupid and humble, but you cannot be stupid and arrogant and indignant all the same time. And I just think that Rusty is pouting all the time, mad because he’s on trial for murder because he didn’t know how to act. And I feel like he’s not from Chicago, and he needs to go right back to Pasadena, go to the Betty Ford sitter, get some help, and, you know, get a new job as a defense attorney. Does that answer your question? Yeah, case closed, don’t be arrogant and stupid. That’s just all. That’s a good rule to live by.

 

Aminatou Sow  40:00

That is a really good rule to live by, unfortunately, very hard for a lot of people.

 

Josie Duffy  40:04

Yeah, you know, literally nobody has mastered it, including me, perhaps, right?

 

Aminatou Sow  40:09

It’s like, pick a struggle. Pick a struggle. It’s like, one or the other. Okay, well, you know, it’s just like, why are men, you know? Because, seriously, I’m very annoyed to even have to give this ruling. And I gotta say, Sam, I was very tickled when you brought up will Gardner, because I was like, you know, Will, he’s so handsome, he’s like, Mr. Nice Guy, blah. And then you did remind me that he was a vicious sexual harasser no matter how Alicia felt about the harassment, and you know, and also did steal that money, and was a very questionable defense attorney, definitely in bed with the drug dealers, but I gotta say, Rusty is the worst lawyer on TV to me, because in this family, we do not Fuck with prosecutors. We do not fuck with the police and the tools of the state. And I gotta say, I went to the this big bias, but I went to the Josie Duffy rice School of you know, like understanding the police and the police state. And also, you are right. Why are you cheating on a black queen?

 

Josie Duffy  41:17

Okay, like and upset that, God, you heard her case like.

 

Aminatou Sow  41:25

I’m so upset. Remember the black lady prosecutor in The Good Wife, what was her name? That like very uptight lady who used to work Geneva, yes, who worked in Peter Flores office, who came from that very rich family that was diversity done right? You know, because they really, they really turned the trope on its head. I didn’t think I’m back and watch their show. I’m like, she’s richer than everyone here, and she’s only being a prosecutor because she wants, she has, like, political aspiration, like my queen. You know what I mean? So, yeah, black women don’t, if a black woman does it, it’s fine, but, um, otherwise.

 

Josie Duffy  41:59

It’s not cool. I love where your head, dad. I do want to say also Josh Charles was in, don’t tell him. The babysitter said, which was a phenomenal movie that I recently re watched, and so.

 

Aminatou Sow  42:10

No, he’s my forever he’s my forever crush. It’s like I had to stop following him on Twitter and Instagram. Many years ago because I was starting to understand what parasocial relationships are like. I was like, oh, this is how the descent into madness starts.

 

Samantha Irby  42:25

He’s one of my few like celebrity follows on Instagram, like people I follow.

 

Josie Duffy  42:31

I thought you’re gonna say he follows you.

 

Samantha Irby  42:32

And I was like, oh, my God, no, girl, he would have been on this. Get him to log on, no, we the we be having a foursome right now, if I could get that close.

 

Aminatou Sow  42:45

Oh, my God. Also, will Gardner? Will Gardner fully believe would never treat a black woman wrong? So that’s how I feel.

 

Josie Duffy  42:53

No, that’s real.

 

Aminatou Sow  42:54

We’re all going to jail. This is unhinged. I love you both very much. Thank you for giving us the time.

 

Samantha Irby  43:01

Love you. This was amazing.

 

Josie Duffy  43:03

Thank you. This is great.

 

Aminatou Sow  43:04

Thanks again to Josie Duffy Rice and Sam Irby. Make sure you check out Josie’s podcast, Unreformed and pick up Sam’s latest book, Quietly Hostile. There’s more Pop Culture Debate Club with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like Ben Mandelker and Ronnie Karim from The Real Housewives episode, talking about how the geographical differences factor into each franchise. Subscribe now in Apple podcasts.

 

Aminatou Sow  43:35

Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Lemonada and the BBC.  I’m Aminatou Sow the show is produced by me, Joanna Solotaroff, Kryssy Pease, Lamar Wood and Dani Matias. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neel is VP of new content. Our SVP of weekly content is Steve Nelson. Commissioning editor for the BBC is Rhian Roberts. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer.  Follow Pop Culture Debate Club, wherever you get your podcasts.