Johnny Depp vs. Amber Heard
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Description
Kiki gives Hoja and Mohanad a much-needed update on the Johnny Depp vs. Amber Heard trial. The trio breaks down the allegations claiming Bill Murray got a little too “handsy” on the set of Aziz Ansari’s new movie, Being Mortal. They unpack the actor’s long history of bad behavior, get into his bizarre voicemail policy, and take their picks for which old white man they’d choose to replace him in the film. Then, Hoja brings the 2000s nostalgia with her review of White Hot, the new Abercrombie & Fitch documentary. Plus, Mohanad sends a message to his girlfriend, Hoja realizes she’s unrelatable, and Kiki ignores our texts on this week’s Sorry Not Sorry.
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Transcript
SPEAKERS
Hoja Lopez, Mohanad Elshieky, Kiki Monique
Kiki Monique 00:00
Hi I’m Kiki Monique. And this is I’M SORRY, a podcast about apologies. And this week, I’m feeling very nostalgic about the early aughts, aka early 2000s.
Mohanad Elshieky
My name is Mohanad Elshieky and this week I continue to be alive, which I think is pretty great.
Hoja Lopez
And I’m Hoja Lopez and this week, spring is out to end my life and pop an allergy pills to go get coffee at Dunkin Donuts. I’m declining.
Mohanad Elshieky
I mean, what’s worse the spring or the Dunkin Donuts? What’s happening here?
Hoja Lopez
I don’t know. It’s up to you.
Mohanad Elshieky
I haven’t been to one in so long. Oh, now because last time I did last time I did they gave me a drink so sweet. The I literally could not consume sugar for like months. They ruined my whole system.
Kiki Monique
But even when I say no sugar, I feel like it still tastes like sugar. I don’t know something about Dunkin Donuts.
Mohanad Elshieky
I feel like if I say no sugar, they’ll just give me an empty cup. And they’re like, here you go.
Kiki Monique
Welcome to I’M SORRY, you know, each week we unpack the latest and greatest in pop culture, celebrity drama, public apologies. And we talk about whether we should forgive forget or just cancel people. We really want to debate whether we have to let stuff go. And when people should just say I’m sorry. So this week we are talking about it all we’re talking about Bill Murray, Johnny Depp. What else are we talking about? Oh, Abercrombie.
Hoja Lopez
I don’t know if I’ve ever heard anybody say it out loud again.
Kiki Monique
Not even in the song. I like girls who wear Abercrombie and Fitch.
Hoja Lopez
Never heard of it.
Kiki Monique
I think it’s LFO.
Mohanad Elshieky 02:00
Yeah, yeah. Oh my god. Wow.
Kiki Monique
I don’t think they ever made another song.
Hoja Lopez
Before we dive in, I want to tell you about an exciting new podcast that Lemonada has. The network behind I’M SORRY, is excited to share its newest project with you I cannot wait. So BEING is reality TV for your ears. It’s an innovative different audio format, like no other podcast you’ve ever heard. And this season, the BEING series is being trans. So you’re gonna meet Chloe, Jeffery, Mariana, and Psy. And over the course of six episodes, you’ll get to kind of be a fly on the wall for their most intimate conversations and unscripted raw moments. So I’m so excited to just kind of be a ride along and watch them navigate. You know, family relationships, love lives, friendships, healthcare, professional careers, and everything else that comes with living life as a transgender person in Los Angeles. And with this podcast, I feel like we’re gonna gain unique insights and an empathetic understanding of their personal experiences. BEING: TRANS is out now. Wherever you get your podcasts, I cannot wait. I want to start with Bill Murray, because I feel like I’ve been hearing stories for years of this guy like, essentially, like haunting hipsters, like that’s the way that they just like, appeared and made appearances at like, in Austin bars and like bartend it so he’s always had this kind of like, strange lore to me behind him. Like, did you guys hear about those things?
Kiki Monique
Oh, yeah, in Brooklyn. I think his son might have a bar in Brooklyn. But I know like, he just showed up for the opening and was behind the bar making drinks. And I was like, I would always try to get these Bill Murray sightings when I was in New York,
Hoja Lopez
right? It felt like a little bit of a like, neighborhood stories where all of a sudden, you’d get like a flurry of texts from friends. And they’re like, Bill Murray is it you know, big bar downtown, you get in then like people would flock to it. And then you might catch a five-minute glimpse of, you know, a smiley old dude behind the bar. But it was, I mean, like, there was something about him that has been like, in pop culture in a really positive way. For so, so many years. Even though these stories have been swirling the entire time. I just sort of I do this thing where I just transcend bad stories, like until I remember them, and they become a part of like, our consciousness. I sort of just forget them kind of, what is that?
Kiki Monique
Well, I think when someone is so beloved, you just have a hard time really, even when the negative stories come out. You’re just quick to be like, well, that’s the media, they always want to trash someone right? And you make excuses. Because, you know, we just, we love these people they have, they’re in our homes. They’re like part of our nostalgia. So yeah, you just try not to think that they can be this terrible.
Mohanad Elshieky
Exactly. It’s very hard to, like, engage with these stories with someone that you love. It’s not like if it was like someone like Mark Wahlberg, you’re like, absolutely, I believe anything. You literally could make up stories. And I’d be like, yes, that is the truth.
Hoja Lopez
I feel like Mohanad has a burn book, like on Mean Girls. And it’s like, Jared Leto. And like Mark Wahlberg, you just have this distinct group of essentially white men that are actors that you particularly dislike. And I want to see them all together.
Mohanad Elshieky
Figure the fuck out. Yeah, I mean, there shouldn’t be an Ocean’s 13 of just a White men that I hate just together.
Hoja Lopez
I will say what I moved to the United States, I was so much more of like White older men in those weird like glasses, you know, and like the old school 90s glasses, because all I had ever seen was like serial killers that looked like that. So I moved here, and I was like, I have no perception of this, like, who was scary and who was not scary. Because my impression of like, White culture was that and of like, Black culture, it was like, like, you know, Whoopi Goldberg in like, Sister Act, and I was like, Oh, my God, there’s choirs. And like people, you know, like, it was just, like a totally strange impression. But that’s why Bill Murray, I love him. But he definitely has this part of him that I don’t trust, which is that he is of a generation, you know, but these rumors that are coming out is essentially, so he is on a movie currently with Aziz Ansari. And essentially, he gets, you know, somebody sort of flags and starts an investigation, kind of calling it quote, inappropriate behavior after the film. So the film is called Being Mortal. And it’s a film that’s, you know, written and directed by Aziz Ansari. And I think he’s also in the movie. But as he’s also kind of comes with his own sort of baggage. So I’m really curious in terms of, of that dynamic, like, I wonder if Aziz is just like, Oh, God, another thing that’s like not working for me.
Mohanad Elshieky
I think it’s funny that the media is using Aziz Ansari picture with every article about this. And they know exactly what they’re doing with that. But I think it’s so funny that the movie that got cancelled called Being Mortal, and it just like kids, you know?
Kiki Monique
I mean, I imagined it. Look, I knew the minute that this article came out, like, obviously, anything that’s happening on the set that Aziz is working on, he’s going to be uber sensitive to you because of, you know, the things that happened to him. So it’s kind of like, yeah, I’d shut down too, if, you know, I mean, the article that came out was saying that, allegedly, he was getting Bill Murray was getting handsy, which I thought that was just such an interesting term that page six use, handsy with women on the set, which is just like, oh, it feels very.
Mohanad Elshieky 08:08
Yeah, but it’s not just that he feels like he took being handsy to a whole other level, because like, he just like being the shit out of people just like fighting people. And I was just like, what’s going on here, but he’d like throwing shit at like, the directors in movies. He’s been in and like, trying to fight them and all of that shit, and it’s insane. And I like I don’t even know, what’s the process? Like, if the star of the movie you’re directing or like you’re a producer on tries to be the shed of you.
Kiki Monique
Yeah, I mean, because that’s what came out. Like, you know, when this you know, apparently Richard Dreyfuss’ son, Ben Dreyfuss, came out and he did a bunch of tweets. When the story came out about this film being shut down, where he talked about his dad, Richard Dreyfuss’ experience on I think it was on What About Bob said, What About Bob, where all everyone left, they flew back to LA because this they were filming in Virginia, they flew back to LA, and they wouldn’t come back until they had security. So they had for the rest of the film. They had security guards, between Richard and Bill to finish and that was a, it was a rumor going around Hollywood, I guess in the 80s or whatever. 80s and 90s. And basically, you know, Ben, his son said, yeah, that’s what happened. Dude’s unhinged.
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, he said that essentially, like Bill Murray wanted an extra day off. And Laura who was I guess that producer said no, and so that he ripped the glasses off of her face. And then when Dreyfuss complained about the behavior then Bill Murray threw an ashtray at him, so it’s like fuck, Bill, but this is the thing is like it feels so reminiscent of like, what is the difference between like a like, just somebody who’s an asshole One who is an abusive person. And that line is like, the physical stuff is just so it’s so messed up because I feel like that is one of the things that makes me push from somebody who’s just an asshole to somebody who’s abusive. Searchlight put out a letter, and they essentially just said, hey, like we’re, you know, we’re suspending the production, we just feel like we need to investigate before we move forward. I wonder if any of that is going to be public? Or if it’s just going to kind of get swept under the rug, sort of, generally speaking, I feel like they want to keep these things tight. But what do you guys think?
Kiki Monique
Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, the reason it’s been swept under is because Bill Murray sells movies, he is super profitable. So you know, they have a vested interest in protecting him. You know, maybe not so much now. Because, you know, he’s, he’s still very high powered and Hollywood, but I mean, I don’t know the last Bill Murray movie I’ve seen recently, you know, so maybe they’re more likely to be a little more like, okay, you know what, dude, we’re putting you in timeout, as we’ve discussed, like, clearly not canceled, but maybe we you need to take a little timeout, because this behavior that was we let go for years and decades, decades, right. We’re just we don’t accept it anymore. And we’re not gonna be able to change you because you’re what 71 years old. We know we can’t change you. So we and so we just can’t have you on set. Yeah,
Hoja Lopez 11:26
He definitely gives me like, drunk old theater director vibes, where he’s just like, a que […] AK, like, he’s got all of the, like, all of the weird things. Also, like, it’s sort of, in my mind, kind of, like erratic behavior, like the whole voicemail thing. Really, you can’t talk to him unless you leave them a voicemail on like a voice machine.
Kiki Monique
Wait, what’s that? I didn’t hear that.
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, it’s just this thing where it’s like, you can’t actually call Bill Murray, Bill Murray doesn’t have a phone. He has a voice machine, that it doesn’t matter. If you’re, you know, President Barack Obama talking to you about a new opportunity to save the world or me, you call this voicemail, and he has people field those calls those voicemails, and that is the way that he gets all of his information. So like, if you’re Steven Spielberg, and you want to get Bill Murray on the phone, you call that voicemail and leave a voicemail?
Mohanad Elshieky 12:27
That is fucking insane
Hoja Lopez
But it’s like, if you manage to get your, your hands on this number, that’s what you have to do.
Kiki Monique
I need to know, like, if it’s an actual answering machine, like, somebody have to go to eBay and find actual answering machine, those little tapes. And if that breaks down, they have to find a person who knows how to fit like, I need to know, because it doesn’t feel like it’s digital doesn’t feel like this guy.
Hoja Lopez
It’s just the same one he’s had in his weird house for the past 40 years,
Mohanad Elshieky
I swiped away, we just like, let like these actors just be insane. And they think it’s fine, because he’s just like, you know, it’s just like, it’s them. It’s how they are. They give us like these like great movies and whatnot. But you know, we just have to put up there with their behaviors and stuff. And I’m just like, no, you don’t. You don’t have to do that. There are so many other people who are also talented who can do the work. I mean, obviously not as famous. But you know, you make them famous, I don’t know, do something about it. Well, I mean, what do we think? Do you think it’s fair that they canceled the movie? Or like at least put it on hold?
Kiki Monique
I mean, that’s the thing, because now we’re still giving him all this power, right? All of these jobs are now out of work right now, because of this one guy. No. Like, again, if he’s the problem, investigate him, put them on the back burner. I’m sure there’s many other people again, I don’t know how many scenes he was in, but continue on with the movie in another way. And I’m sure he can be replaced if that’s what the investigation comes to.
Mohanad Elshieky 14:00
Yeah, exactly. I’m sure you can get like some other like old White dude to just leave.
Kiki Monique
They are plentiful. Let me tell you.
Mohanad Elshieky
Exactly. And you know, we have one proven way to get Bill Murray to change his behavior. And I you know; I think we should just go for that is just make him live the same day over and over and over again. Until he learns.
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, he needs Groundhog Day all over again to happen.
Mohanad Elshieky
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Also, speaking of the groundhog, he also complained about Bill Murray just beating this will not leave anyone alone.
Hoja Lopez
Groundhogs, they their big accusers, they love to come out against people.
Mohanad Elshieky
Like what do you mean you can’t see your shadow?
Kiki Monique
Well, I’m sure either way Lucy Liu is somewhere very happy about this because, you know, apparently but the whole Charlie’s angle angels thing. Yeah. You know, like, I think it was like he had he was away from the set for a day and they did some rewrites. And when he came back to the set, for some reason he was blaming Lucy, for all these changes, it seemed like and he was like mad at her about it. And she was kind of like, I was the last person hired on this film. I have the least creative input, but like, for some reason, he was blaming her.
Mohanad Elshieky
Yeah, and apparently he said like some like inappropriate stuff to her like on the set and stuff. When asked about Drew Barrymore said, you know, comedians, he just like, said some, like, dark jokes. And I’m just like, yeah, when someone says, you know, comedians, they said, dark jokes. I’m like, okay, 100% has to do with racism.
Mohanad Elshieky
Exactly. It’s like, at the end of the day, like, you are still at your workplace, like, you know that you have a job like you would not if you’re at like, you know, a corporate office, you would not do that there. So why do you think that just because you’re on a movie set, it changes.
Hoja Lopez 16:10
In corporate America, you get fired because you took an extra like tea bag from the frickin like, the tea bag box, wherever tea bags go, you guys like they literally will drop you for nothing. All I’m saying is okay, I want to also clarify, I have not been fired for stealing teabags from a job. But it’s true. You are in a professional environment. And I always wonder what it is about, like the movies in Hollywood that makes people feel like they can just kind of like, I don’t know, be the worst version of themselves. I’m like, we’re all out here putting on our suits and trying to be decent for each other. Why can’t you?
Mohanad Elshieky
Exactly yeah, you know, hire me instead. I’ll play. Give me some makeup and stuff and I’ll do it.
Hoja Lopez
I mean, if they can put them people in fat suits, they can make somebody older.
Kiki Monique
Were you a Johnny Depp fans growing up?
Hoja Lopez
Oh, desperate.
Mohanad Elshieky
I mean, I loved Pirates of the Caribbean. Yeah.
Kiki Monique
Okay. I mean, I have been, you know, a Johnny Depp fan. I mean, Edward Scissorhands, you know, like, long time. I mean, cry baby. The John Waters may be so good, you know. So I, you know, court cases, I like court cases, but like, they’re not like my thing that I normally will watch entire days’ worth of trials. But right, like, there was no way I couldn’t watch. This is like one of those pop culture moments that I want to remember every single detail of when I’m like old to like retail. Because it’s really insane. Now I you know, if you aren’t following my very detailed stories, and I spent a lot of time putting together a little background, Johnny Depp and Amber Heard were married. They had a very tumultuous relationship. They ended up there’s restraining orders, they end up getting divorce. And then at some point, the UK tabloid the sun publishes an article about how Johnny’s a wife beater. He sues. he sues The Sun for defamation. And they have this long trial in London. And all of this evidence about like abuse comes up. And essentially, the court finds, you know, they were strong enough evidence to show that he was abusive, so he loses the case. Then Amber goes on and December of 2018, to publish an op ed piece in The Washington Post. And in it, she’s there’s one line that says, you know, two years ago, which would have been 2016 when the restraining order happened. Two years ago, I became the face of domestic violence. And so now Johnny has sued Amber for $50 million for defamation, because he’s like, that’s clear that you were speaking about me. Amber has countersued for 100 million saying, you know, there was a campaign to ruin her life. And now we have this six-week trial in Fairfax County, Virginia, which people don’t understand why the trials happening in Fairfax County, Virginia. It’s because the Washington Post servers live in Fairfax County, Virginia. And so that’s why the case was brought there. I mean, that’s the technical reason. I think there’s other reasons why he brought the case there as well.
Hoja Lopez
Is it like Virginia laws that are like that he’s trying to sort of like galvanize or like use.
Kiki Monique
I think there might be an element of the law, but I personally Willie also just think there is this, this southern connection he wants to build with the jury. Because a lot of the language I’ve noticed he’s used, it’s very smart, like, you know, when he talks about, like, you know, getting whipped by the belt, you know, that, to me is someone who was born in the south, that’s a very southern thing relate relatable. When he talks about, you know, he talks a lot about his abuse with his mother and how she had, like, I guess, an addiction to these quote unquote, nerve pills, right? And nerve pills again, that’s a very southern thing, like, oh, grabbing my nerve pills, you know, and I think there’s a, he’s trying to find that connection with the jury, because this is the first time he is getting to tell his side of the story. And that’s what he’s doing. I mean, he’s been on the stand. At the time of this recording. He’s been on the stand for days. Telling his side and grilling, and you know, and the same is gonna happen to Amber.
Hoja Lopez 20:55
Honestly, this child is giving me major, like, lesbian vibes. I know Amber Heard is already queer. Johnny Depp has long hair and wears a lot of rings. There’s a lot of like, drama, The breakups are insane, like this truly, I’m not even joking. When I first started hearing about how messy this was getting, I was like, oh, I have four friends that have gone through worse. Like, they like, you know, their divorce has lasted five years, and they just have like one house to separate. So I can’t even imagine. This just seems like extremely intense. And it just feel so messy. Like it feels like, you know, like, once you can’t really separate things clearly anymore. And there’s so much like, if you spill a soup, you just can’t put it back together in the bowl completely. And that’s what this whole situation feels like. It just feels like. Now there’s too many angles, there’s too much time has passed too many things have happened. I can’t even imagine how, even with a result, they’re going to come up with a way to truly describe what actually happened between these two people. Like there’s no trial, there’s nothing you can do to say what happened kind of does that make sense?
Kiki Monique 22:13
No. Yeah. And I mean, the level of detail that level of text messages that we’re hearing, right, you know, we’re hearing the level of audio recordings that, you know, they made secretly ignoring, you know, public, you know, it’s so invasive, it is all out there.
Mohanad Elshieky
It’s also like, I mean, I don’t know, I mean, I haven’t really been watching that much, but like, were they just like hitting record all the time? Or what was going on here? It just feels like so many audio messages?
Kiki Monique 22:46
Well, and that’s part of the reason that, you know, there’s people who are very much justice for Johnny. And the people in that crowd are very much like, why are there so much recordings, it’s not normal, she was setting him up. Now, Johnny has admitted on the stand that he introduced the first recording because he says as someone who was getting abused by Amber, allegedly, I had to break out the recording the first so I did this so that when she would say these things and do these things to me that the next day, she would say that never happened. I had proof. But she was aware that I was recording. So he introduced that. What he’s saying is there were these secret recordings that were happening. And you could you know, certain ones, you could see that he didn’t know were there. And then you know, he might freak out in the audio of it. But there’s a lot of that, now I can again, I can see both sides of this. Because one I can say like, yeah, that seems very, like, why are you setting this person up to secretly record them. But I’ve also can say, as someone who’s been in a crazy, toxic relationship, and I’ve recorded them, because I wanted the next day when they were sober to see like, this is how you acted. And so I’ve also been on that side of it, you know, so I have to just kind of like get through all of his testimony and I have to get through all of hers because it’s so messy, but part of me was like, it’s terrible. This is it’s like just like reading someone’s journal. There has to be a relief. At least for Johnny, he’s getting his side of the story out and once you’ve let all of this out there, there’s not enough left to cancel you, right? Every terrible thing you’ve possibly ever done is out there for the world and you’re exposed as fuck but yeah, hey, we never have to talk about this again and I can move on with my life.
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, the fact that they feel the need to go so public with it is really it’s crazy. And on that side as there are Gianni heads and then there’s also this sort of perception of like, we don’t always believe women we don’t like listen to women when they’re saying that they’re being abused. And so there’s this like waiting I have like, I personally feel sort of torn in that sense of like, I want to root for people who are in a disadvantaged position. And I want to make sure that I’m like paying attention to the details and not just silencing the voice of somebody who possibly has gone through this. So I definitely feel at a crossroads.
Mohanad Elshieky
So, it’s also, this is unrelated, but related to it, is that for the longest time, I thought Johnny Depp was British. And, yeah, and I was like, Oh, he’s just from Kentucky, okay. I literally every time he spoke, I was just like, I thought you were British. Like I literally I am reminded by like this every time he speaks, I’m just like, there’s truly nothing he could do. Like you could come to my house and tell me you’re not British. And I’m just like, okay, if you say so buddy.
Hoja Lopez
I want to add something to your burn book, which is people who don’t have your expected accent. You are like, if I think you’re British, and you come out with an American accent unacceptable.
Mohanad Elshieky 26:09
I would say it’s worse the opposite way. When I learned that someone is like British or like, from like any other countries or just like Australia or something. I’m just like, I feel like I’m like losing it a bit.
Hoja Lopez
They’ve wounded you. They did that to victimize you.
Mohanad Elshieky
It’s because it’s just like, I mean, you just have to tell me like I have nothing against you know, like you’re speaking in a British accent but you can’t come at me with cuz like British people do a really good American accent. American people do not do a good British accent.
Hoja Lopez
I will say Kate Winslet at Mare of Easttown was not good. It was not good.
Mohanad Elshieky
I know. The only thing I was gonna say is about like Johnny Depp is you know, I’ve been like following the discourse online on Twitter the most sane website to ever exist only good opinions there, obviously. But there are people like you know, who are like, like, obsessed with Johnny Depp. And also have like these like very childish resolutions for this trial, where they literally just like think about Johnny Depp as his characters. And they’re just like, this is how I want this trial to end I want her I want him to win and they look her in the eye and say, you thought you could catch Captain Jack Sparrow? And I was like, if he says that I will do something bad to myself like what are you talking about? What kind of world that you live in? This is the imagination you have the imagination of a child like these are like the lives of two people here and they’re like, no, this is what I want. Because to me these are not people.
Hoja Lopez
It’s like, it reminds me of like women who fall in love with serial killers or like women who fall in love with like, actually Captain Jack Sparrow from the movies it’s a delusion and I love that world. I want to live there with these women. They’re happy no matter what. You know what I mean? Yeah, it’s like, I have a friend who writes an insane amount of fanfiction and I’m very proud of her and this is good fanfiction. But she spends so much time fantasizing about Harry Potter and Ron Weasley having sex with each other, that she doesn’t have sex herself and goes out into the world because she’s so obsessed. Okay, see, I see your befuddled and confused faces. It’s I’ve managed to absolutely confuse you guys completely. So you guys know fanfiction, right? This fanfiction with Johnny Depp characters with so Pirates of the Caribbean fan fiction Harry Potter and Ron Weasley fanfiction. But her specifically she writes Harry Potter and Ron Weasley are in love and in different adventures, but she it’s a fantasy world that she gets to live in. And I’m just comparing her to your woman who wants him to say that at the end. I realize now that that’s been, that was a stretch.
Kiki Monique
I just feel like you know, it’s like you know that section? I think it’s like an Us Weekly whatever, some magazine where it’s like stars. They’re just like us like yeah, I almost want that section to be like video of Will Smith smacking Chris Rock and Johnny Depp on the stand because it’s like, yeah, the stars. They’re just like us don’t like idolize them because they also fuck up and end up in court end up you know, assaulting people. Like they’re not like, they don’t give a fuck about any of us, right? Like, you know, they’re they they’re living their own lives and they’re doing their own thing. And so it’s like, just don’t put them on this pedestal.
Hoja Lopez 30:24
I do want to talk about and, how do you pronounce it?
Kiki Monique
Abercrombie.
Hoja Lopez
Thank you, Abercrombie and Fitch. You guys watched the documentary? It’s so good and so stupid.
Kiki Monique
I think this is part of why I’m like nostalgic about early aughts right now, yes, between that and the in the Von Dutch, you know, a series just all about it.
Hoja Lopez
Do you guys remember? Like, did you wear a goddamnit? I’m never gonna say Abercrombie and Fitch clothing, like what was your vibe growing up?
Kiki Monique
Absolutely. Not that I never have owned a piece of Abercrombie. I’ve never owned a piece of American Eagle, Hollister, like those brands. And I grew up in a predominantly White area. So like, I liked all of those things. For some reason that was so Uber white. It scared me like I like went into the store once and I was terrified.
Mohanad Elshieky
Aggressively White. I’ve never wore any of their clothing, honestly. But yeah, I mean, I knew about them.
Kiki Monique
So they succeeded in their, in their marketing clearly because,
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, they wanted to exclude us and we felt excluded.
Kiki Monique
So you didn’t have any either? Oh, ha. So
Hoja Lopez
you know, I mean, I will say so I was in Venezuela, when that really started popping off because I was in Venezuela until 2006. Really. And so I remember a girl came back from the United States from like, just a vacation or whatever. And she said, I found the best brand in the world. And I was like, okay, and this was an announcement to our college class. And so everybody is like, Oh, this bitches went to America to go shopping. Okay, we got to listen to what she’s got to say. And so she pops out of her bag, this Abercrombie and Fitch shirt, and I was like, okay, that’s like, it’s a long-sleeved Polo. With just the letters on it. I was like, this is a nice, this isn’t fancy. And she just died by this brand. She was so into it. But that was really my only exposure. And then when I moved to the United States, I was like, what are these like, clubs in the middle of the mall? Like, what is this nightclub doing? Right next to like, you know, my ear-piercing Claire’s where I’m going to get some butterfly clips have been here. What is happening? First of all, I don’t like strong scent. They hurt my nostrils. And so I walked in and was immediately repelled by the scent that I had been dunked in fragrance liquid. I mean, just the experience of it was enough to send me running. Yeah, but yeah, I didn’t have much like, I didn’t have much of an Abercrombie kind of like obsession. But I do remember people around me wearing it often. But was that more in high school? Like, when did it hit for you guys?
Kiki Monique
Again, like I feel like yeah, that like that feels about like the right around that time. Like, yeah. I mean, it was like, I mean, to me, the beginning stage because the documentary really like you know how it opens up. It’s like, it’s trying to be this like, cool brand with the cool kids. Where I sort of step into Abercrombie is when it’s that spider man, when he the guy who talks to the creative director or the photographer talks about, he knows downhill because in Spider Man, Peter Parker’s bully was head to toe and Abercrombie. And that’s to me what it represented. Were these frat bros, the lacrosse playing, you know, date rapists. Like, you know, like that way. Yeah, you know, and clearly, that’s what was happening underneath was so much more sinister. The fact that they were hiring people completely, only based on looks, and it didn’t even matter how good your sales were. If you weren’t hot, you weren’t at the front, you were relegated to the back, you know, stocking stuff. And they would they would keep people on payroll just for when the CEO Mike Jeffries would do his Poppins to make sure that the hottest people were there on those days like they wouldn’t even be on the shift like the rest of the schedule.
Hoja Lopez 34:42
I was reading that up until something like 2000 and like seven or 2008 they didn’t offer any larger pants and a size 10 like the biggest to largest size that they had in the entire store was a size 10 and they didn’t carry it in all stores. So you’re talking sixes and eights.
Kiki Monique
But here’s what’s crazy, my friend because I thought this was counterintuitive, but then maybe it actually is what works. So my friend at the time, she was a size 10-12. She went, Yeah, she was like maybe like, yeah, size 10 She went to the store. And in Abercrombie, she was an 8. They make girls who are a size four think they’re a size zero, which seems counterintuitive, because you would think, well, they’re actually wouldn’t you they’re giving them more room. But what that all that does is the girls who then think they’re a size zero, or who aren’t you, I need to be a size zero. So when they go to other stores that so I thought that was weird, because I was like, I didn’t know that part of it. And I don’t think they talked about that in the documentary. But I’ve also had people, other people who said that that was the case. So even though they wanted to size 10, they probably were close to 12-14. But you thought you were a 10.
Hoja Lopez
God, the manipulation, what 10-12 and then you’re wondering, you’re like, why is the sizing all wack? It’s because companies and brands are using it to make you feel better or worse and sell shit to you.
Kiki Monique 36:12
But like, you know, the fact that they had a whole you know, employee handbook on like, working there. You know, you cannot women or men can’t have dreadlocks. Men cannot wear like gold chains. It’s like, okay, well, we know where this is going. Right? And so many things, you know, you kind of wear clear nail polish, or, you know, earrings couldn’t you know, girls could only wear a simple silver necklace. So many rules about just being classic American natural, aka very White.
Mohanad Elshieky
Yeah, everything about this feels like the guidelines if you have like joining like a White power group.
Kiki Monique
That was funny that the picture that they use of Mike Jeffries, I don’t think it was any accident that he had his hand raised, because they kept using that stock photo of him. And I was like, he looked like Hitler with his hand raised. I was like, I don’t think that’s an accident. They’re using this photo.
Hoja Lopez
It definitely gives it’s giving gay Hitler use vibes. 100%
Mohanad Elshieky
I’d say I mean, 10 out of 10. I mean, like those companies in the department of finding creative ways to do racism, truly very creative. Like literally the stuff that they come up with. I mean, like, to this day, obviously, like companies do it, even if we don’t know, a lot of like we’ll know about in the future is truly insane. Just like coming up with just like, No, we’re not saying this trace cannot be work at our company, but we’re just saying we’re gonna make it extremely impossible to do so.
Hoja Lopez
I think, too, it’s like, partially the feeling of it is so connected to that, like Americana, and for a very long time, that’s been what America or what like that, sort of, like all American quarterback are the All-American person looks like. And they made that point very clearly in the documentary of like, there’s a very narrow version of what that means. And just now we’re deciding like, oh, Americans can look like a lot of different things. And for me, one of the most interesting things too is like that the company the background of it comes from that like hunting and sort of like I can’t remember what it was but I know initially before it was kind of like this sort of crazy teen thing. It was like an outdoor retailer that sold like fishing and hunting gear. So again, these activities that feel very like kind of like white people activities,
Mohanad Elshieky 38:41
I mean, there’s so much to say also about like how like, you know, a lot of like White people consumption of elf culture or like making it like whether like it’s clothing or anything else. It’s all about like exclusivity and like making like making it like not accessible for other people. That’s like the way culture is consumed. And I think someone like talks about it like I saw it maybe like yesterday or something like even talking about like sneaker culture and whatnot. You know, like, it’s now almost impossible for you to buy a sneaker the day drops because they’re just like sold out immediately. And then they are resold in like way higher prices. So a sneaker that would cost like $100 like an air force or something. You buy it up to $500,000 or so. And you see like these like white dudes are just like you know, posting a picture of themselves like next to like boxes and boxes and boxes of these sneakers that they bought that they’re you selling to people and you know someone will just like it’s insane that this is like their like idea of like, how to make something important or whatever like is to make sure other people do not get their hands on it. Because you know like when you make it this expensive then you are like that. You’re making sure that the only people who can get their hands on like a specific group of people. Yeah. And I think, you know, the company we’re talking about now in the documentary is an example of that. But it is not the only example.
Hoja Lopez 40:14
That’s a really interesting point Mohanad, about like, the sort of like the, like demand and access to things because it is sort of like taps into that human feeling of like, well, if there’s not enough, you know, if there’s not enough for me, then I need to access you know, things that I, you know, ultimately will always be able to get, and for a company like that, to then use that, and to use this thing that sort of inside of us already. That is very much like the marketing kind of ploy of it. And then the, the dark side of that, or the underbelly of that, is that these two white guys were able to dictate whether or not you felt good enough for such a long and formative like chunk of your life. And that met class that meant race that meant sighs that meant, like, you know, ability to access things and I think that’s a good thing to remember when we’re obsessed with something. Is that what part of our insecurities or what part of our like, our bullshit human stuff are they using against us. And I definitely feel like Abercrombie is they used it against us very well. But I’m glad we noticed though.
Mohanad Elshieky
Absolutely. I mean, we do that with so many stuff, you know, like, like something like this was like something I have to ask myself, like, every time like, I want something I want to buy like I’m obsessed with it. I’m just like, do I even like this thing? Or even think it looks good? Or do I want it because it’s expensive? And I feel like not many people have access to it and now I need it. Because like we all have the thing we will we buy this thing. And then once you get it you’re like you have to kind of convince yourself that you actually like it because like you’re so underwhelmed by it like oh, is this it?
Hoja Lopez
Ultimately, it’s not a hug from your from your lover. It’s not a vacation with your friends. It’s not it’s not you know, all these lovely other things that we haven’t like that actually make us feel good. But I will say okay, maybe it makes me feel really good when I get a strappy green sample that I need to perfect an outfit. Okay, I see it. There’s some positive things in there.
Mohanad Elshieky 42:19
Exactly. But you know, speaking of access, one thing you can access and is extremely good is this podcast.
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, that’s right. Remember to rate and review baby.
Mohanad Elshieky 42:38
Okay, and now it’s time for my favorite segment that we do every week. Sorry, not sorry, where we either apologize to someone or we demand an apology. And like every week, I’m going to start with Kiki.
Kiki Monique
You know, this week, I think I owe an apology to everyone in my life. And this is going to have to be like a blanket apology for the next month. For every single person I’m going to ignore. There’s no text messages are not going to get responded to. I’m probably not going to shower very often. I’m not going to leave my house very often because I am riveted by the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial. It takes up four days of a seven-day week, actually more like five because then it’s like a recap day. So five days a week. I am spending seven hours a day just all about Johnny and Amber. So I’m sorry to anyone who is trying to get in touch with me or talk with me or hang out with me for the next month because I’m sorry, it’s not happening.
Mohanad Elshieky 43:40
It is true because we every time we text Kiki, she like, please stop talking to me right now. And so we’re that kind of rude. But we I mean, we love her. We don’t care.
Hoja Lopez
She did say I need to relinquish our friendship. I just need to put it on pause for a moment. But I will be back. Who knows if we’ll be there on the other side of
Mohanad Elshieky
I mean, we were happy to have this podcast so we can finally get to talk to her.
Hoja Lopez 44:06
We only do the podcast to hang out with each other. Busy, busy bees.
Mohanad Elshieky
So Hoja what’s going on with you? Are you following any trials? Should we, no trials.
Hoja Lopez
No trials, but I would like to apologize to the country of Venezuela. Yeah, in general, I think I do think that I owe them an apology. And I would include the people patrimony the land the you know the concept of it as well, because I can’t relate to it anymore. I’m so sorry. I hate this about myself right now. But it’s like it’s messed up back there. But I’ve lived in America too long at this point. And so I can’t fully relate to all the horrible things that are happening at any given moment. And so when I talk to friends from back home that still live there. I sound insane to them. Like we don’t care about the same things. anymore. I’ve tried to talk about my podcast. And then my friend Andrea was like, well, we didn’t have tampons, or condoms for the last two months. And I’m like, well, I don’t really know how to. You know what I be like I’m living this life of leisure. And my friend Andrea, I can’t find. You know, contraceptives.
Kiki Monique
Yes, yeah. Champagne problems are the best problems to have. Yeah.
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, but I do. I think I just need to generally apologize for being unrelatable. At this point in my life,
Mohanad Elshieky
it helps we do we do find you saying, Hoja so I find it very relatable.
Hoja Lopez
So this is why Paris Hilton can’t have friends who don’t also have money like she does, because they can’t like, join her in Paris last minute when she really wants to go. It’s just not my exact problem. But on a smaller level.
Mohanad Elshieky
Yeah. Well, this week, I’m not going to apologize to anyone. I’m going to demand another apology. Wow, big surprise. It’s an Believe it or not, it’s still again from Rosie. Yeah, because I remember last week, on last week’s episode, I said that she traveled to Michigan and she left me with the cats. This week, she is in Portland for a whole week. And this tells me two things. She either did not listen to the podcast episode, where I said that she should not leave me with the cats for so long. Or she listened to it and did not just, you know, ignored it.
Kiki Monique 46:36
Either way. Yeah. It’s bad. Like you didn’t listen, or you didn’t listen. And
Mohanad Elshieky
anyway, it’s just like, what is what’s happening here? She keeps asking me like, what’s bothering you? And I’m just like, I’m not gonna tell you just have to listen to the podcast to hear it. So this is me asking like what’s going to happen the weekend after like, are you just gonna like leave for like somewhere else? It’s you know, this is the only way we communicate now. So hopefully she listens to this and is going to be some time before she gets to this.
Kiki Monique
But you and your cats are your best buddies. Now. Don’t you love that? I mean that they’re so needy, and they’re going to be your best friend. Not her best friend anymore?
Mohanad Elshieky
Okay, Kiki, you’re right. And maybe she’s having a great time with them. But I’m using this moment to pretend that is not true.
Hoja Lopez
Yeah, like a guilt trip. Love guilt trips. They’re a device that is underrepresented and underappreciated.
Mohanad Elshieky
Yeah, did I spend hours of my day yesterday just trying to position them in front of the podcast mics so they can pretend to be recording a podcast just so I can take a picture, maybe?
Kiki Monique
please put little hoodies on them. That’s all I ask of you.
CREDITS
I’M SORRY is a Lemonada Media Original. The show is produced by Alex McOwen, supervising producer is Kryssy Pease. Our executive producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Our mix is by Kat Yore and theme music was composed by Xander Singh. If you like this show, please rate and review. And please don’t cancel us. You can find out more about our show at @LemonadaMedia on all social platforms, or follow us on Instagram at @imsorry_podcast. We’ll be back next week and until then be nice, play fair and always say I’m sorry. Thanks for listening!
